Mary's virginity

[Open Heart]

Christians should pray to God the Father through the Son

That's exactly what Mary does for us.

 

[Tellastory]

That's exactly what Mary does for us.

Not now, she doesn't.

And I doubt there was a line leading up to Mary when she was alive, asking her to pray for them for as much emphasis has been placed on her today now that she is with Jesus.

I would say that Mary would have you do as she has done on earth and that is to pray to God the Father through the Son.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Believers in God should pray to God.

I sometimes talk to my dead teacher, but I don't imagine he listens, it is just therapeutic.

 

[Lulav]

That's exactly what Mary does for us.

And why can she do it better than we can? Isn't that just adding one more 'route'? Instead of the Priests to G-d for the people now it seems like that's added more, instead of making it more direct.

 

[Lulav]

Not now, she doesn't.

And I doubt there was a line leading up to Mary when she was alive, asking her to pray for them for as much emphasis has been placed on her today now that she is with Jesus.

I would say that Mary would have you do as she has done on earth and that is to pray to God the Father through the Son.

I agree, I've thought of this before, Mary was a human being, a mother, but of everyone? Isn't that putting such a burden on her? has anyone thought of that? If she is in heaven and if she could hear all these prayers would that really be a peaceful rest? I should think not.

G-d can deal with all the prayers rising up as he is G-d, he can listen to us all at once but Mary, a mere human, it's got to be a cacophony of super-colossal proportions, that is if she can hear, but I pray she is not being tortured like that.

 

[aniello]

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

In view of the fact that scripture is authority, can't see the need for a middle man/woman as a go-between.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Funny isn't it. People have no problem asking another person (who will be a sinner by default) to pray for them, nor do they have a problem thanking people for their intercession....until it comes to people who are the truly righteous....the departed in Heaven (who I believe do pray for us, but with some qualifications).

Then again...there's a whole bunch of questions that follow from that. Do they hear us? Are we to ask only the living to pray for us so that they can fulfill a mitzvah...etc etc etc.

That is a good question: "Do they hear us?" If we pray to someone who is 'departed' aren't we ascribing to them a godlike power in that they would be able to be in heaven and hear our prayer from wherever we are? And to notice us, whomever we are?

 

[ContraMundum]

That is a good question: "Do they hear us?" If we pray to someone who is 'departed' aren't we ascribing to them a godlike power in that they would be able to be in heaven and hear our prayer from wherever we are? And to notice us, whomever we are?

Yep, it is a good question. Another good one is "would Heaven be Heaven if you heard the cries and complaints of those still on Earth?"

 

[ContraMundum]

Yeah, you right. Asking the departed Tzadikim goes way back. All the way to XIX century.

Uh, no. Check your Talmud and the Zohar bro.

I am way over my head among the Protestants, I find MJs incomprehensible, but among the RCs I feel right at home-having spent my youth in a deeply Roman Catholic country and a good portion of my school years in the Catholic system. You can say, I got my ABCs from the priests and nuns. The genius of Roman Catholicism is that it is very flexible. I asked about the Marian cult. The answer was always the same. If it brings and keeps people in the Church, what difference does it make? The Pope JPII, whom I met several times as a bishop, was a big proponent of the Marian cult and not shy about it, either. As a Pope, he never failed to visit sanctuaries in his travels. My comments about Christianity may be disputable, but about the Roman Catholic Church or even Eastern Orthodox portion of the religion are not.

Do you know if I had a dollar for every ex-Catholic who claimed they knew Catholicism but actually didn't I'd be rather wealthy? You've not demonstrated an accurate knowledge of it here. You might have been around the culture a little, but that's not enough to know the dogma.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Yep, it is a good question. Another good one is "would Heaven be Heaven if you heard the cries and complaints of those still on Earth?"

Another good question!

I would say that it would be impossible for a human to consider it heaven if they heard the cries and complaints of those still on Earth. But God can handle it because He knows how the story ends.

 

[ContraMundum]

Another good question!

I would say that it would be impossible for a human to consider it heaven if they heard the cries and complaints of those still on Earth. But God can handle it because He knows how the story ends.

...and yet the prayers of those on earth are joined to those in Heaven according to Rev. Very interesting imagery.

You're right though. God's sovereignty oversees all of this.

 

[Tellastory]

I agree, I've thought of this before, Mary was a human being, a mother, but of everyone? Isn't that putting such a burden on her? has anyone thought of that? If she is in heaven and if she could hear all these prayers would that really be a peaceful rest? I should think not.

G-d can deal with all the prayers rising up as he is G-d, he can listen to us all at once but Mary, a mere human, it's got to be a cacophony of super-colossal proportions, that is if she can hear, but I pray she is not being tortured like that.

Also, I am sure Mary would be insulted for giving her the title "Queen of Heaven".

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Mary has to know the scripture, and that is why she would not be happy about that.

Anyway, you do have a good point as I am sure Mary is implementing this reference.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Nobody wants to bring their work home with them, and nobody wants the things & the people they left behind from their former lives to take away the joys of being Home.

Mary knows that God will deal with the things that are God's. Everything has been, is presently, and always will be in His hands.

 

[danny ski]

Uh, no. Check your Talmud and the Zohar bro.



Do you know if I had a dollar for every ex-Catholic who claimed they knew Catholicism but actually didn't I'd be rather wealthy? You've not demonstrated an accurate knowledge of it here. You might have been around the culture a little, but that's not enough to know the dogma.

Ah, no. I'm not an ex Catholic. I never said I was. On a personal note, how does an ex Jew reach a point where he can accept things like praying to a "virgin" Mary? Don't have to answer that, but it must've been some trip.

 

[ContraMundum]

Ah, no. I'm not an ex Catholic. I never said I was. On a personal note, how does an ex Jew reach a point where he can accept things like praying to a "virgin" Mary? Don't have to answer that, but it must've been some trip.

I don't pray to Mary. I just understand the arguments for it.

 

[Open Heart]

And why can she do it better than we can? Isn't that just adding one more 'route'? Instead of the Priests to G-d for the people now it seems like that's added more, instead of making it more direct.

"The prayers of a righteous man availeth much." And it is no more indirect than asking aanyone else to pray for us.

 

[Lulav]

Good point. Jews parade Torah scrolls through the streets and even kiss them on many occasions, kiss both tefillin and tallis, brandish plants and move them in various ritual ways (you are obviously going to understand that! ) kiss and reverently touch mezuzahs, light candles for yahrzeits and to welcome shabbos, have precise rituals for washing hands, toivelling and davening etc etc etc. A lot more extra-Biblical baggage than RCism.

I realize that most Jews consider these things non-essential, minhags etc. But you try to buck or change just one of those rites as a kid and see what happens! You can get away with it as an adult, maybe.

All true, but honoring the word of G-d in the form doesn't make it an idol, although I've heard Christians call it as such. The Kissing of tefilin and tallis are because the also contain the word of G-d. Same thing with the mezuzahs.

Now the waving of the lulav, you know that is a commandment to do so and the different directions are a way to show that G-d is everywhere since he didn't tell us how to wave it.

Now as to the other things, the candles, the washings etc are baggage if you want to look at them that way.

I guess it depends on why you want to change it, or was it you didn't want to participate in it for personal reasons?

 

[Lulav]

"The prayers of a righteous man availeth much." And it is no more indirect than asking aanyone else to pray for us.

That's not quite true is it? If I ask a believer to pray for me (non-Catholic) then I expect them to go to the Father in Yeshua's name. But those who pray to Mary believe that she goes to her son like at Cana and asks him to ask the Father, isn't that how it's done?

 

[Open Heart]

That's not quite true is it? If I ask a believer to pray for me (non-Catholic) then I expect them to go to the Father in Yeshua's name. But those who pray to Mary believe that she goes to her son like at Cana and asks him to ask the Father, isn't that how it's done?

Isn't it pretty much the same thing? If not, then we are in trouble, cuz zillions of Christians open up their prayers with "Dearest Jesus..." or "Thank you Jesus"

 

[Lulav]

Isn't it pretty much the same thing? If not, then we are in trouble, cuz zillions of Christians open up their prayers with "Dearest Jesus..." or "Thank you Jesus"

And I believe that is wrong, even Yeshua said he was not greater than the Father. The 'Our Father' they pray even shows how to start a prayer and to whom to pray to. I would think after all that repetition it would be understood.

 

[BukiRob]

Mary has a unique position as the Mother of our Lord. She does not take the place of her son. Nor do the saints. As I've said many times before, there is a difference between worship and veneration, whether some in here want to make them the same or not.

I've never been to the places you are describing so I can't reply. I've been to California Missions, which have gift shops, which I think are very nice. I wouldn't describe them as "money making institutions" for the Catholic Church, but as courtesies for tourists that help keep the Mission open.

Hyperdulia special veneration accorded to the Virgin Mary. According to thesaurus dot com a synonym for veneration is worship.

Dulia
Word Origin
C17: from Medieval Latin: service, from Greek douleia slavery, from doulosslave

Words matter and its very clear to me that veneration is worship