Mary the mother Of God

[BenAdam]

Arguments of cloning aside... scripture is clear that Jesus must be a descendant of David, that He must be from the tribe of Judah, etc. If Jesus was in no way biologically related to Mary (or Joseph-although it is understood that Joseph was not the biological father) then Jesus would NOT be qualified to be Messiah, since He would not fulfill the prophecies.

Additionally, the scriptures say that Mary would "conceive, and bear a son" (Luke 1:31). Conception is when an egg is fertilized-- not when a foreign object is implanted.

So you are saying Mary was not a surrogate right?

 

[Father Rick]

So you are saying Mary was not a surrogate right?

Exactly... Mary was not a surrogate but was actually Jesus' biological mother. This is what has always been taught by the Church.

 

[Prosperity]

Catholic's do pray to Mary.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

 

[Father Rick]

Catholic's do pray to Mary.

This is true, Catholics (as well as Orthodox, Anglican, Copts, some Lutherans and others)do pray to Mary in exactly the same sense as the Ethiopian eunuch prayed to Philip.

Ac 8:34 - Show Context And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

And the way Paul prayed to the soldiers guarding him after his shipwreck

Ac 27:34 - Show Context Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.

And how Paul and his companions prayed to the Church in Corinth

2Co 5:20 - Show Context Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[PastorMike]

Arguments of cloning aside... scripture is clear that Jesus must be a descendant of David, that He must be from the tribe of Judah, etc. If Jesus was in no way biologically related to Mary (or Joseph-although it is understood that Joseph was not the biological father) then Jesus would NOT be qualified to be Messiah, since He would not fulfill the prophecies.

Additionally, the scriptures say that Mary would "conceive, and bear a son" (Luke 1:31). Conception is when an egg is fertilized-- not when a foreign object is implanted.

Just because Mary was the mother of Jesus doesn't make her the mother of God...

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This verse speaks of Jesus dual nature...the child who was born was his humanity which Mary was the mother of...the son who was given refers to his deity as deity cannot be born his deity was given...eg Jesus was called Jesus of Nazareth...deity didn't come from Nazareth he came from Heaven but his humanity did come from Nazareth...

So his humanity came from Mary...child was born...and his deity came from His Father from Heaven...

 

[PastorMike]

This is true, Catholics (as well as Orthodox, Anglican, Copts, some Lutherans and others)do pray to Mary in exactly the same sense as the Ethiopian eunuch prayed to Philip.

I can't believe that you would try to take those scriptures out of context...The word pray he is talking about in the context of these verses is just an old english way of making a strong request or to beg, not the same way we talk about praying to the Father...

Ac 8:34 - Show Context And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

1189 deomai (deh'-om-ahee);
middle voice of 1210; to beg (as binding oneself), i.e. petition:
KJV-- beseech, pray (to), make request.

And the way Paul prayed to the soldiers guarding him after his shipwreck

Ac 27:34 - Show Context Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
And how Paul and his companions prayed to the Church in Corinth.

3870 parakaleo (par-ak-al-eh'-o);
from 3844 and 2564; to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):
KJV-- beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort (-ation), intreat, pray.

And how Paul and his companions prayed to the Church in Corinth

2Co 5:20 - Show Context Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

1189 deomai (deh'-om-ahee);
middle voice of 1210; to beg (as binding oneself), i.e. petition:
KJV-- beseech, pray (to), make request.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Arguments of cloning aside... scripture is clear that Jesus must be a descendant of David, that He must be from the tribe of Judah, etc. If Jesus was in no way biologically related to Mary (or Joseph-although it is understood that Joseph was not the biological father) then Jesus would NOT be qualified to be Messiah, since He would not fulfill the prophecies.

Additionally, the scriptures say that Mary would "conceive, and bear a son" (Luke 1:31). Conception is when an egg is fertilized-- not when a foreign object is implanted.

First, Joseph's lineage is included in the scriptures also. By your line of reasoning that lineage is a lie in the scriptures. Therefore I disagree with you. Scripture does not lie.

Secondly, the word translated "conceived" in the passage you mentioned has both a literal and figurative meaning.

NT:4815
sullambano (sool-lam-ban'-o); from NT:4862 and NT:2983; to clasp, i.e. seize (arrest, capture); specifically, to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication, to aid:

This topic has no bearing on my walk with the Lord, as I have no traditions to defend, however; I do percieve that it is an explosive subject for some and I do not want to be involved in something angry. So I will bow gracefully out.

Be blessed.

 

[Father Rick]

I can't believe that you would try to take those scriptures out of context...The word pray he is talking about in the context of these verses is just an old english way of making a strong request or to beg, not the same way we talk about praying to the Father...
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1189 deomai (deh'-om-ahee);
middle voice of 1210; to beg (as binding oneself), i.e. petition:
KJV-- beseech, pray (to), make request.





3870 parakaleo (par-ak-al-eh'-o);
from 3844 and 2564; to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):
KJV-- beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort (-ation), intreat, pray.




[/i]

1189 deomai (deh'-om-ahee);
middle voice of 1210; to beg (as binding oneself), i.e. petition:
KJV-- beseech, pray (to), make request.

I'm not taking them out of context at all... when it comes to "praying" to Mary or any of the saints, one is NOT praying to them the same as praying to the Father, but simply asking them to pray for us. In other words, it is used only in the old English sense of 'to ask' someone something... in this case to ask them to pray for us. If you look at the "Hail Mary" or any of the other such "Prayers to the Saints", it is all about asking them to pray for us. Since they're in heaven communing with God anyway, then why not talk to God about us while they're at it.

With the "Hail Mary" in specific, the first half is just a paraphrase of the angel's annunciation to her, followed by "pray for us"...

This would be a whole different thread however...

 

[PastorMike]

I'm not taking them out of context at all... when it comes to "praying" to Mary or any of the saints, one is NOT praying to them the same as praying to the Father, but simply asking them to pray for us. In other words, it is used only in the old English sense of 'to ask' someone something... in this case to ask them to pray for us. If you look at the "Hail Mary" or any of the other such "Prayers to the Saints", it is all about asking them to pray for us. Since they're in heaven communing with God anyway, then why not talk to God about us while they're at it.

With the "Hail Mary" in specific, the first half is just a paraphrase of the angel's annunciation to her, followed by "pray for us"...

This would be a whole different thread however...

That would still be wrong because the scripture teaches us...1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


We are not supposed to pray to anyone but God the Father through Jesus...John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

 

[BenAdam]

That would still be wrong because the scripture teaches us...1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Used in this manner it appears you are saying that you can't have anyone pray for you. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Prosperity]

I'm not taking them out of context at all... when it comes to "praying" to Mary or any of the saints, one is NOT praying to them the same as praying to the Father, but simply asking them to pray for us. In other words, it is used only in the old English sense of 'to ask' someone something... in this case to ask them to pray for us. If you look at the "Hail Mary" or any of the other such "Prayers to the Saints", it is all about asking them to pray for us. Since they're in heaven communing with God anyway, then why not talk to God about us while they're at it.

With the "Hail Mary" in specific, the first half is just a paraphrase of the angel's annunciation to her, followed by "pray for us"...

This would be a whole different thread however...

This is still praying to Mary because it is asking Mary to grant ou favor.

 

[Father Rick]

This is still praying to Mary because it is asking Mary to grant ou favor.

In what way?

If I say to a pastor, "Pastor, will you pray for me?" have I asked him to grant me favor, or depended on him for favor? How is that different?

 

[PastorMike]

Used in this manner it appears you are saying that you can't have anyone pray for you. Is that what you are saying?

-

 

[Trish1947]

I have to ask this question. Why feel the need to ask Mary or any other Saint to pray or seek Jesus out for you. Is Jesus just too busy in Heavenly things to hear you own petition? Do you have less connection to the throne room of grace than the Saints? You have the same Spirit of Christ in you, that they do. They just happened to have their flesh die.

 

[Father Rick]

I have to ask this question. Why feel the need to ask Mary or any other Saint to pray or seek Jesus out for you. Is Jesus just too busy in Heavenly things to hear you own petition? Do you have less connection to the throne room of grace than the Saints? You have the same Spirit of Christ in you, that they do. They just happened to have their flesh die.

Excellent question...

The answer is... for the same reason that you may ask a pastor or a prayer partner to pray for you sometimes. Yes, each person has access directly to God. Yes, Jesus hears us when we pray. Yes, God's grace is there for us.

However, there are times when we are just too tired, too 'kaput' to pray for ourselves. Times when we need someone to pray with us and for us (just like a pastor or a prayer partner). While we all can pray for ourselves, there are also times when we all need someone else to pray for us/lift us up.

 

[Trish1947]

However, there are times when we are just too tired, too 'kaput' to pray for ourselves. Times when we need someone to pray with us and for us (just like a pastor or a prayer partner). While we all can pray for ourselves, there are also times when we all need someone else to pray for us/lift us up.

But this is what I thought the Spirit desires to do. Is to interceed for us when we are tired or know not what to pray, or are ka-put. By praying in the Holy Ghost. Aren't we to allow the Spirit to interceed for us and it goes directly to God, which seems to bring that breakthough a person seeks, instead of praying the Saints?
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Is the Spirit bypassed as the intercessor when the Saints are prayed ?

 

[Father Rick]

But this is what I thought the Spirit desires to do. Is to interceed for us when we are tired or know not what to pray, or are ka-put. By praying in the Holy Ghost. Aren't we to allow the Spirit to interceed for us and it goes directly to God, which seems to bring that breakthough a person seeks, instead of praying the Saints?
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Is the Spirit bypassed as the intercessor when the Saints are prayed ?

Is the Spirit bypassed? No more so than when we pray for one another, as scripture says "...pray for one another that you may be healed..." In other words, not at all.

 

[PastorMike]

Excellent question...

The answer is... for the same reason that you may ask a pastor or a prayer partner to pray for you sometimes. Yes, each person has access directly to God. Yes, Jesus hears us when we pray. Yes, God's grace is there for us.

However, there are times when we are just too tired, too 'kaput' to pray for ourselves. Times when we need someone to pray with us and for us (just like a pastor or a prayer partner). While we all can pray for ourselves, there are also times when we all need someone else to pray for us/lift us up.

There is a difference, I don't pray to my pastor or to my friends, I will ask them to stand with me in prayer...and we all pray to God together...

We do not pray to dead saints or to anyone else our prayer is to be directed to God throught the name of Jesus and Jesus says the father will answer...

If someone prays to the saints for help it is like they really don't believe that God will hear or answer but if a dead saint prays for them then God will surely hear their prayer...

But Jesus promises that any prayer prayed to the Father in HIS name will be answered...John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

 

[TasManOfGod]

I cannot reconcile any prayer style other than what is depicted here:


Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

 

[Heinrich]

Exstracts From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
First century:
Seeing that this doctrine is not contained, at least explicitly in the earlier forms of the Apostles' Creed, there is perhaps no ground for surprise if we do not meet with any clear traces of the cultus of the Blessed Virgin in the first Christian centuries.
AD 403:
Hence Epiphanius laid down the rule: "Let Mary be held in honour. Let the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary"
?
St. Augustine in a famous passage (De nat. et gratis, 36) proclaims Mary's unique privilege of sinlessness
Middle ages:
It seems somewhere in these centuries Our lady's altar becomes available?
Phrases like:
Mary is there called "Mistress of the Heavens, Mother of the Heavenly and earthly Church, Recreation of Life, Mistress of the Tribes, Mother of the Orphans, Breast of the Infants, Queen of Life, Ladder of Heaven." This composition may be as old as the middle of the eighth century.

while Christ is continually referred to as "Jesus Mac Mary" (i.e. Son of Mary).

Later Middle Ages:
Even in Aldhelm's day Our Lady was besought to hearken to the prayers of those who bent the knee before her shrine.

(Also in this time more and more miracles are being claimed regarding Mary. Most of them strange types of things which profits nobody nothing and doesn't give any glory to God)

And by the end of the Middle ages things like a Mary-Mass was "universal"


To me personally it seemed that things changed to atleast some extent over the last 2000 years.