Mary the mother Of God

[PastorMike]

Here is the actual passage linked with the greek The word 'brothers' is adelphos (sisters here is simply the feminine of the same word) that means As I have stated repeatedly, the word could EQUALLY mean anything from full brother to cousin-- even associate (as in the disciples, especially since the names listed are primarily those of disciples). It is even translated one place in scripture as 'believing husband'. So unless you really want to argue that Jesus had a 'believing husband', then you should accept that it is a much broader term than just one meaning. When it can have multiple meanings, then one must look to the most reliable outside sources to clarify.

The word does not EQUALLY mean anything from brother to full cousin...it primarily means brother...this is the context the word should be taken in...then the word can also be applied to full cousin but it doesn't automatically mean it is a full cousin...

In this case, it has ALWAYS been believed that Mary had no other children. This was confirmed and proclaimed dogma in the council of Nicea (the same council that gave us the creed) in the 300's , since it was a view held universally by all parts of the Church in all the world.

Always been believed by whom?

Again, the actual text with the greek
While there is no question that Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary before Jesus was born, it does NOT actually say he had relations with her after Jesus was born. This is an assumption made and not actual scripture.

This is an "ASSUMPTION" based on the fact that Jesus had brothers and sisters...Matt 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

If it is a "wind of doctrine", then so is the Nicene Creed. They were both formed at the same time by the same men in the same council after years studying both Scripture and Church history. If it is a 'wind of doctrine', then it is one that was accepted unanimously by all the Church of the whole world for close to 2000 years and is still held by the RCC, the Eastern Orthodox, the Copts, the Old Catholics, most Anglicans, most Lutherans, etc. --basically any church with roots going back more than 200 years.

This was held unanimously by all the Church of the whole world by people with scriptures that were locked up in a dead language that men couldn't read or understand until one day the bible began to be translated in the language of the people and people began to seek God for themselves and to get their own revelation from God...

 

[PastorJoey]

Here is the first ever recorded attempt of "Mary worship" and Jesus shut it down.
Luke 11:27-28 KJV

(27) And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

(28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

PJ

 

[Father Rick]

Here is the first ever recorded attempt of "Mary worship" and Jesus shut it down.
Luke 11:27-28 KJV

(27) And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

(28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

PJ

For the record... Worship of anyone or anything other than God is now and always has been condemned as idolatry.

Catholics don't worship Mary... Never have..

 

[PastorMike]

Catholics don't worship Mary... Never have..

Are you sure?

 

[PastorJoey]

For the record... Worship of anyone or anything other than God is now and always has been condemned as idolatry.

Catholics don't worship Mary... Never have..

I am glad you feel this way. What most mean when they speak against worship of Mary is of an extreme reverence that only belongs to Jesus.
Most Catholics would have no problem with the statement of worship this woman made toward Mary, yet may have been offended at Jesus sharp response.
PJ

 

[Father Rick]

The word does not EQUALLY mean anything from brother to full cousin...it primarily means brother...this is the context the word should be taken in...then the word can also be applied to full cousin but it doesn't automatically mean it is a full cousin...

Here is a list of scriptures (all in Matthew) so you can see how that particular author used the word. Clearly it can have multiple meanings, not simply actual physical brother.

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 1:2[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]To Abraham was born Isaac; and to Isaac, Jacob; and to Jacob, Judah and his brother s; [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 1:11[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]and to Josiah were born Jeconiah and his brother s, at the time of the deportation to Babylon. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 4:18[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brother s, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 4:21[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And going on from there He saw two other brother s, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called them. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 5:22[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 5:23[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 5:24[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]leave your offering there before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 5:47[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"And if you greet your brother s only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 7:3[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 7:4[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 7:5[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 10:2[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 10:21[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"And brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 12:46[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brother s were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 12:47[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brother s are standing outside seeking to speak to You." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 12:48[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But He answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brother s?" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 12:49[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold, My mother and My brother s! [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 12:50[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 13:55[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brother s, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 14:3[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]For when Herod had John arrested, he bound him, and put him in prison on account of Herodias, the wife of his brother Philip. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 17:1[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain by themselves. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 18:15[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 18:21[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 18:35[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 19:29[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"And everyone who has left houses or brother s or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, shall receive many times as much, and shall inherit eternal life. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 20:24[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brother s. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 22:24[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies, having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up an offspring to his brother.' [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 22:25[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"Now there were seven brother s with us; and the first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother; [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 23:8[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brother s. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 25:40[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brother s of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 28:10[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they shall see Me." [/font]

If my count is correct, leaving out the passages in question, Matthew uses the word to mean literal brother 16 times and figuratively to mean either a relative or an associate 17 times. I would call that pretty equal.

This is an "ASSUMPTION" based on the fact that Jesus had brothers and sisters...Matt 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Again... I think I just showed pretty clearly that that passage doesn't necessarily mean physical brother.



As to claims that the people didn't have access to the Scriptures, so you remember that the councils in question occurred when the Roman empire was still a major force-- meaning most all people were not only literate but had access to books including Scripture. In fact, the issue in existence at the time was not a lack of access to Scripture, but sorting through the myriad of writings that were circulating amongst the local churches to determine which of the writings were authentic and which were fraudulent. A brief study of the Church Councils will show how each church sent representatives, both clergy and laity, to speak on their behalf.

Much of the modern Protestant misconceptions of the scriptures being locked up in great monasteries, etc. with only few having access to them are actually from a period in time much later (500-800 years) when in Europe there was a state of general illiteracy, so the only people who had access to books were those who could actually read them-- usually the wealthy and clergy. However, this was not at all the culture of the middle east during the time of the Roman empire (which includes the time of Christ and beyond). At this time, even fishermen were competent enough to both read and write (such as the books of Peter, etc. contained in Scripture).

 

[Father Rick]

Here is the first ever recorded attempt of "Mary worship" and Jesus shut it down.
Luke 11:27-28 KJV

(27) And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

(28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

PJ

IF saying this (saying Mary was blessed) was considered a statement of worship, then Jesus himself promoted idolatry, for He stated "blessed are they that hear the word of God". Obviously, Jesus wasn't promoting idolatry-- and neither was this a statement of worship of Mary. In fact, the angel who appeared to Mary as a messenger of God actually made a very similar statement "Blessed are you among women".

 

[BenAdam]

Catholics don't worship Mary... Never have..

I think a better way to say this is that Catholics don't worship Mary as a matter of doctrine. I know plenty that defacto worship Mary. I know plenty of Protestants that worship their church building, or cross, etc.

 

[Prosperity]

Hey all,

I would just like you know your opinions of Mary the Virgin mother of God, From her immaculate conception to her Bodily assumption into heaven

God bless

lg3

Matthew 1:20 (KJV) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mary new no man, but was impregnated with by the Holy Ghost. I believe that Mary's chromosomes played no part in the conception, or Jesus' flesh would have been born under the same curse as everyone else. The total chromosome structure that merged, to form Jesus, was of the Holy Ghost which would dictate the Jesus' blood and flesh was a direct result of this Holy Ghost implant and free from sin.

Mary was not free of sin as she was not born-again, but she was probably the best that God had to work with.

Assumption into heaven

?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Closed for review

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Mod Hat​

After some slight editing in a few posts this thread is reopened. Please remember to address the post and not the poster. Also please remember to not make ALL inclusive statements. . .such as "Catholic's worship Mary". Per Catholic doctrine it is not taught to worship Mary. So, while some Catholics may worship her just as some Protestents may worship their church building or cross, ect., that does not apply to all. OK! ​

Thank you. ​

 

[Father Rick]

Mary new no man, but was impregnated with by the Holy Ghost. I believe that Mary's chromosomes played no part in the conception, or Jesus' flesh would have been born under the same curse as everyone else. The total chromosome structure that merged, to form Jesus, was of the Holy Ghost which would dictate the Jesus' blood and flesh was a direct result of this Holy Ghost implant and free from sin.

To deny that Jesus was biologically the son of Mary is to deny His humanity-- and thereby to deny His ability to be the Messiah.

 

[BenAdam]

To deny that Jesus was biologically the son of Mary is to deny His humanity-- and thereby to deny His ability to be the Messiah.

I like how Charles Capp said it. The Word came to Mary, Mary received it and the Word wrapped itself in her flesh. The Word does the same today. He also pointed out that the Word is called seed, just like the male part of the process.

 

[Trish1947]

Mary admitted that Jesus was her saviour. So Mary was not sinless by default as being born under the sin of Adam. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But no doubt she was a good women and served God. She wasn't blessed because she was considered sinless, but was considered blessed because God chose her.
And Jesus had to take on the flesh of humanity, to be able to put to death the sin of man in his own body at the cross. He had to have the ability to commit sin, like us, yet did no sin, or the temptation by Satan, would have been no temptation at all. Your not tempted if you can't be. But God being His Father, he did not sin.

Luk 1:45And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

Luk 1:46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

Luk 1:47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Luk 1:48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Luk 1:49For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name.

 

[Prosperity]

To deny that Jesus was biologically the son of Mary is to deny His humanity-- and thereby to deny His ability to be the Messiah. /QUOTE]

Again with the accusations. I'm not denying that Jesus was human. He was just like Adam, before Adam fell in that Adam was created perfect just as Jesus was conceived and begotten in perfection. God can make a man without a woman if he chooses. Take Adam for instance. Who was Adam's momma? Are you saying that Adam wasn't created a human? Mary bore Jesus, but neither her chromosomes, nor her blood had a thing to do with Jesus in the womb. She was Jesus' mother because she bore Jesus, not because she helped to conceive Him. Jesus was conceived and nurished totally of the Holy Ghost while in Mary's. Jesus was created by God in Mary's womb just as Adam was created out of the dust. It was a direct and miraculous act of God the Father. If Mary's chromosomes or blood were in Jesus, then Jesus would have a sin nature just like Mary.

 

[BenAdam]

Again with the accusations. I'm not denying that Jesus was human. He was just like Adam, before Adam fell in that Adam was created perfect just as Jesus was conceived and begotten in perfection. God can make a man without a woman if he chooses. Take Adam for instance. Who was Adam's momma? Are you saying that Adam wasn't created a human? Mary bore Jesus, but neither her chromosomes, nor her blood had a thing to do with Jesus in the womb. She was Jesus' mother because she bore Jesus, not because she helped to conceive Him. Jesus was conceived and nurished totally of the Holy Ghost while in Mary's. Jesus was created by God in Mary's womb just as Adam was created out of the dust. It was a direct and miraculous act of God the Father. If Mary's chromosomes or blood were in Jesus, then Jesus would have a sin nature just like Mary.

You are making quite a leap here. Did Jesus need to eat on Earth? If so, why didn't He need to gain nourishment from her like any other baby? If you want to make such statements please at least provide a reference.

 

[TreeOfLife]

To deny that Jesus was biologically the son of Mary is to deny His humanity-- and thereby to deny His ability to be the Messiah.

For nearly two thousand years I can certainly see how this made perfect sense, but now in the age of cloning I would think that it would be easier to see how God did not need even one thing from Mary in order to conceive Jesus in her womb.

Let's remember, He is the God of something from nothing (creation).

 

[BenAdam]

For nearly two thousand years I can certainly see how this made perfect sense, but now in the age of cloning I would think that it would be easier to see how God did not need even one thing from Mary in order to conceive Jesus in her womb.

Let's remember, He is the God of something from nothing (creation).

Cloning still requires something from the mother. The egg. The nucleus is put into an egg from a female of the species.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Cloning still requires something from the mother. The egg. The nucleus is put into an egg from a female of the species.

I did not say that worldy scientists had duplicated Jesus' virgin birth. What I said was that those things should make it easier to see that the God who spoke a word and had a universe leap into exsistance is very well capable of conceiving Jesus with nothing from Mary.

If that is so far from believable, get a bigger God.

 

[Father Rick]

Arguments of cloning aside... scripture is clear that Jesus must be a descendant of David, that He must be from the tribe of Judah, etc. If Jesus was in no way biologically related to Mary (or Joseph-although it is understood that Joseph was not the biological father) then Jesus would NOT be qualified to be Messiah, since He would not fulfill the prophecies.

Additionally, the scriptures say that Mary would "conceive, and bear a son" (Luke 1:31). Conception is when an egg is fertilized-- not when a foreign object is implanted.