Mainline Protestant churches are dying

[FireDragon76]

Today was the day this really hit home to me.

Our pastor was injured in a fall and is in recovery. So we had a substitute pastor, a retired UCC pastor come to preach. His sermon just seemed like the typical liberal mainline Protestant stuff I grew up with in the United Methodist church. "Make the world a better place" and the Social Gospel (his words). I can't really fault him too harshly over just one sermon, but, I don't think this kind of thing is really engaging with young people and contemporary existential threats we are facing that seem to erode life of meaning.

I am reminded of what Bonhoeffer said decades ago, of the Mainline in the US, that it preaches a Christ without a cross, salvation without judgement, etc. It's more true than ever. The religion has been hollowed out in favor of pleasant moralisms that don't speak to the deep pain and fear in the world, or the vulnerability felt by many people in our society. I'm all for having a welcoming church that doesn't shun gay people, but there has to be a better way than this...

At our congregational meeting (I'm non-voting at the moment since my membership in the church has been delayed due to the pastor's injury), the finances for the church are not great. We are having to dip into savings. Only about 35 members bothered to show up for the meeting. I think this is what end-stage looks like. Almost everybody in the church is over 60, and most of them are over 70.

 

[hedrick]

Among other things, I wonder whether our tradition of not being political in sermons is hurting us. We don’t need to endorse candidates from the pulpit, but there are things where the Christian faith really does have implications

I will say that our church, although smaller than it used to be, has a better age balance than yours.

 

[Pioneer3mm]

Interesting topic/post..
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Mainline churches have been declining..several decades.
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I was involved in UMC (Methodist) & PCUSA (Presbyterian)..
- in 1970's & 1980's.

 

[FireDragon76]

Among other things, I wonder whether our tradition of not being political in sermons is hurting us.

I think it's really complicated. The main thing I see is an intellectual and social bubble, and too much of a sense of self-importance engendered by that.

 

[public hermit]

I am reminded of what Bonhoeffer said decades ago, of the Mainline in the US, that it preaches a Christ without a cross, salvation without judgement, etc. It's more true than ever. The religion has been hollowed out in favor of pleasant moralisms that don't speak to the deep pain and fear in the world, or the vulnerability felt by many people in our society.

That makes sense. I wonder how much of it is moralism sans spirituality. If the content is simply an extension of the Democrat agenda, what's the point? Why have church if it's not grounded in the transcendent? I think people want/need more than moralism. I certainly do, and I probably agree with all the moralism! Lol

 

[FireDragon76]

That makes sense. I wonder how much of it is moralism sans spirituality. If the content is simply an extension of the Democrat agenda, what's the point? Why have church if it's not grounded in the transcendent? I think people want/need more than moralism. I certainly do, and I probably agree with all the moralism! Lol

Our usual pastor does a better job of balancing and integrating personal spirituality and social justice.

In terms of theological vision, I think Catholics or Orthodox do better. There's alot in Catholic or Orthodox spirituality that could speak to contemporary concerns better, than the Social Gospel tradition, which is highly humanistic, when contemporary society is moving towards Post-Humanism.

 

[RileyG]

I have no comment other than I will keep you in prayer and wish the very best for you and your congregation.

Take care

 

[FireDragon76]

I have no comment other than I will keep you in prayer and wish the very best for you and your congregation.

Take care

It might sound like I'm talking in the abstract, but some of the elders in the church are expressing some despair about attendance, and aren't sure what needs to be done. Last Sunday we only had a dozen or so people attending, and we're having to dip into long-term savings.

 

[lismore]

Today was the day this really hit home to me.

Hello! Sorry to hear your church is in these difficulties. I feel your pain.

On holiday (vacation) I used to visit a couple of Church of Scotland Congregations (Presbyterian) which seemed to be having the same issue. Lovely churches, great locations, stunning scenery, a lot of character in the buildings. But the congregation dying off. Struggling to maintain services, clergy etc. A good service for a once off, but for several times a week perhaps a tough pill to swallow.

Perhaps it's a combination of factors.

One I think you touched on:

I am reminded of what Bonhoeffer said decades ago, of the Mainline in the US, that it preaches a Christ without a cross, salvation without judgement, etc. It's more true than ever. The religion has been hollowed out in favor of pleasant moralisms that don't speak to the deep pain and fear in the world, or the vulnerability felt by many people in our society. I'm all for having a welcoming church that doesn't shun gay people, but there has to be a better way than this...

Some thriving Evangelical Churches present what they call a nuanced approach, they can be welcoming, show kindness and the fruit of the Spirit to homosexuals without affirming the lifestyle. This means they are welcoming to strangers but also keep their Evangelical fervour, an ethos of mission. Without a distinct purpose people fall away. 'Making the world a better place'- laudable, but without a sense of uniqueness or urgency. The Great Commission is both unique and urgent. If a church is too like the world it tends to dwindle, because when two things are similar the greater in number absorbs the lesser.

Another issue might be style. Take music for an example, the service might be the same as a service from 100 years ago, whereas musical tastes have changed. It's sad but true that some may leave a church for more upbeat music, perhaps a blended approached of older and newer can work best. Many Charismatic churches go to extremes, their music can sound like a Boeing 737 coming through the wall, but they attract crowds, particularly and often exclusively the young.

God Bless You

 

[FireDragon76]

Some thriving Evangelical Churches present what they call a nuanced approach, they can be welcoming, show kindness and the fruit of the Spirit to homosexuals without affirming the lifestyle.

I don't see that as the issue. Our congregation is open and affirming of LGBT persons, as am I, and I wouldn't affiliate with a church where it was otherwise.

Being open and affirming, however, doesn't seem to be doing anything to stop the flow of people out of the church. Younger generations just aren't as interested in religion of any sort, whether it's gay affirming or not.

This means they are welcoming to strangers but also keep their Evangelical fervour, an ethos of mission. Without a distinct purpose people fall away.

I don't actually believe in Evangelical religion per se, that's not my approach to Christianity. It's far too individualistic and discounts the ordinary means of grace. Mission doesn't necessarily translate into how Evangelicals use the term, in my mind. I think Christianity should be as Bonhoeffer saw it, primarily collective participation in prayer and the sacraments.

 

[RileyG]

It might sound like I'm talking in the abstract, but some of the elders in the church are expressing some despair about attendance, and aren't sure what needs to be done. Last Sunday we only had a dozen or so people attending, and we're having to dip into long-term savings.

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm sorry to hear that.

I think part of the issue is that we simply live in a world where "the love of many has grown cold".

 

[The Liturgist]

Among other things, I wonder whether our tradition of not being political in sermons is hurting us. We don’t need to endorse candidates from the pulpit, but there are things where the Christian faith really does have implications

I will say that our church, although smaller than it used to be, has a better age balance than yours.

This is an interesting idea. I think you might have a point on the basis of your specific local parish, but not on a denominational or even at the level of regional presbyteries within the PCUSA.

This is based on the fact that the PCUSA has experienced less dramatic membership than the much more overtly political UCC, and also did retain more relatively conservative members due to its policy of Gracious Dismissal, which was well-implemented, and accompanied by actual efforts to persuade congregations to remain a part of the PCUSA, so as to retain some which would otherwise have left for the eCO, so it might be a particularly bad idea for the PCUSA to shift its strategies, considering it is in relatively good health in terms of membership particularly in comparison to the UCC, if membership is actually the goal. And I would propose that the liberal program is helped by having more members, and not alienating people on the very provocative basis of secular politics.

Also, churches which engage heavily in secular politics do endanger, in theory at least, their tax-exempt status as 501(c)3 entities (in practice, we have not seen too much enforcement on this, but it is a potential problem if a church is seen to be too overtly political). For this reason combined with the risks of alienating people, I myself would never take a political position outside of areas of the most pressing concern, a view I have frequently expressed in other discussions on these fora. Nonetheless, it is possible that I am wrong, and needlessly risk averse, but still, given how relatively better off the PCUSA is among the Seven Sisters of mainline Protestantism, I really feel that it would be a mistake to rock the boat unnecessarily at a denominational level at least.

Conversely, individual Presbyterian parishes probably can become reasonably politically active without jeopardizing the overall denominations, and in some parts of the country this probably could attract members. The cohesion which the Episcopal Church, for example, must maintain at the level of dioceses does not necessarily apply in the context of Presbyterianism, which I feel is somewhere in between the strictures of episcopal polity and the very different situation in congregational-polity denominations like the UCC or the American Baptist Convention. And even the Episcopal Church does permit outliers to a surprising extent both in terms of dioceses and individual parishes. Thus there does exist the ability for an individual Presbyterian parish to take the decision to become politically active to a certain extent without endangering other churches in its presbytery or the denomination as a whole.

 

[The Liturgist]

It might sound like I'm talking in the abstract, but some of the elders in the church are expressing some despair about attendance, and aren't sure what needs to be done. Last Sunday we only had a dozen or so people attending, and we're having to dip into long-term savings.

I will pray for your parish!

 

[hedrick]

This is an interesting idea. I think you might have a point on the basis of your specific local parish, but not on a denominational or even at the level of regional presbyteries within the PCUSA.

This is based on the fact that the PCUSA has experienced less dramatic membership than the much more overtly political UCC, and also did retain more relatively conservative members due to its policy of Gracious Dismissal, which was well-implemented, and accompanied by actual efforts to persuade congregations to remain a part of the PCUSA, so as to retain some which would otherwise have left for the eCO, so it might be a particularly bad idea for the PCUSA to shift its strategies, considering it is in relatively good health in terms of membership particularly in comparison to the UCC, if membership is actually the goal. And I would propose that the liberal program is helped by having more members, and not alienating people on the very provocative basis of secular politics.

Also, churches which engage heavily in secular politics do endanger, in theory at least, their tax-exempt status as 501(c)3 entities (in practice, we have not seen too much enforcement on this, but it is a potential problem if a church is seen to be too overtly political). For this reason combined with the risks of alienating people, I myself would never take a political position outside of areas of the most pressing concern, a view I have frequently expressed in other discussions on these fora. Nonetheless, it is possible that I am wrong, and needlessly risk averse, but still, given how relatively better off the PCUSA is among the Seven Sisters of mainline Protestantism, I really feel that it would be a mistake to rock the boat unnecessarily at a denominational level at least.

Conversely, individual Presbyterian parishes probably can become reasonably politically active without jeopardizing the overall denominations, and in some parts of the country this probably could attract members. The cohesion which the Episcopal Church, for example, must maintain at the level of dioceses does not necessarily apply in the context of Presbyterianism, which I feel is somewhere in between the strictures of episcopal polity and the very different situation in congregational-polity denominations like the UCC or the American Baptist Convention. And even the Episcopal Church does permit outliers to a surprising extent both in terms of dioceses and individual parishes. Thus there does exist the ability for an individual Presbyterian parish to take the decision to become politically active to a certain extent without endangering other churches in its presbytery or the denomination as a whole.

What do you mean by politically active? I’ve never heard discussion of political candidates or politics of any kind from the pulpit. We have groups doing various service projects. Our choir does concerts and visits other churches for worship. I’m not quite sure how politics would fit in. There was one discussion of 1 Cor 6:9 in one sermon, if you consider that political.

The national church lobbies on various issues. Is that political? Its positions are normally more aligned with one party, but as far as I can tell it’s just issue based. I’m not sure anyone actually pays attention to their lobbying…

 

[The Liturgist]

What do you mean by politically active? I’ve never heard discussion of political candidates or politics of any kind from the pulpit. We have groups doing various service projects. Our choir does concerts and visits other churches for worship. I’m not quite sure how politics would fit in. There was one discussion of 1 Cor 6:9 in one sermon, if you consider that political.

The national church lobbies on various issues. Is that political? Its positions are normally more aligned with one party, but as far as I can tell it’s just issue based. I’m not sure anyone actually pays attention to their lobbying…

Forgive me @hedrick I was replying to your post about being more political in sermons, so that is what I meant. Specifically some UCC churches are quite politically overt in their preaching, for example Old South Church in Boston, but historically Congregationalists always were to I think a slightly greater extent than Presbyterians, depending of course on the congregation.

 

[TPop]

Hello! Sorry to hear your church is in these difficulties. I feel your pain.

Another issue might be style. Take music for an example, the service might be the same as a service from 100 years ago, whereas musical tastes have changed. It's sad but true that some may leave a church for more upbeat music, perhaps a blended approached of older and newer can work best. Many Charismatic churches go to extremes, their music can sound like a Boeing 737 coming through the wall, but they attract crowds, particularly and often exclusively the young.

God Bless You

Church music, in my opinion, should sound like 300 to 70 years ago. Not like a bar you walk out of on Friday nights.
Music is very strong and very powerful. Lucifer was the greatest musical talent in Heaven was he not?

Read up on the types of music and where they, and what they resonate with. Music can feed the spirit, should, flesh. Even at 30, there was no way I was going to a church that played Rock or worse, CCM. Music is not just sounds. It is very important. Or should be.

The church should be tailored to church. Not the public, not to the public's feelings, not to fleshy desire. We are different. We are not like other things. If it is one's aim to have a big church and plop a lot of seats and rake in a lot of revenue, give the public what they want. If the aim of the church is to spread the gospel, don't conform to the world. Conform to quality church standards. Leading pretend Christians to salvation is not the same as leading people to Christ.

I'm guessing 50% or more of churches these days in the US Jesus would spit out of His mouth just for the type of music alone.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Andrewn]

"However, the theologian Matthias Sellmann also sees signs of new beginnings. New forms of church life are developing. He cites spiritual events for young people as an example."

Germany: Catholic churches are demolished or repurposed – DW – 02/19/2024

In the last 10 years, the number of Catholic churches across Germany has been dwindling. What does this mean for the faithful?

www.dw.com

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The religion has been hollowed out in favor of pleasant moralisms that don't speak to the deep pain and fear in the world, or the vulnerability felt by many people in our society.

The cross, the pascal mystery needs to be proclaimed. We intuitively know that a fulfilled life, a happy life, is a life of love, compassion and connection with others. But that takes vulnerability and risk. With vulnerability and risk come pain. It is the pascal mystery: Love one another and take up your cross.

 

[lismore]

Church music, in my opinion, should sound like 300 to 70 years ago. Not like a bar you walk out of on Friday nights.
Music is very strong and very powerful. Lucifer was the greatest musical talent in Heaven was he not?

Read up on the types of music and where they, and what they resonate with. Music can feed the spirit, should, flesh. Even at 30, there was no way I was going to a church that played Rock or worse, CCM. Music is not just sounds. It is very important. Or should be.

The church should be tailored to church. Not the public, not to the public's feelings, not to fleshy desire. We are different. We are not like other things. If it is one's aim to have a big church and plop a lot of seats and rake in a lot of revenue, give the public what they want. If the aim of the church is to spread the gospel, don't conform to the world. Conform to quality church standards. Leading pretend Christians to salvation is not the same as leading people to Christ.

I'm guessing 50% or more of churches these days in the US Jesus would spit out of His mouth just for the type of music alone.

Peace and Blessings

Hello TPop. I agree with you, that's the way it should be. Sadly though it can be that worldly music is often used to attract people to certain types of church.

To make a suggestion to the OP: a cafe. I have seen churches from several denominations start a cafe, it's a good way to get people in. Coffee, cake, some company. Churches can do it very reasonably priced, non-profit, a good draw when people are feeling the financial squeeze and feeling lonely. God Bless You