Loss of Salvation Question

FreeGrace2

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Perhaps you need to actually read what it says.

Luke 15
32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.

It does not say fellowship died as you suppose.
I never said that's what it says. I said that's what it means. And, so far, you've not refuted anything I've explained. And it fits. Unlike your yo-yo thing.


IT SAYS YOUR BROTHER WAS DEAD AND IS ALIVE AGAIN. THE SON WAS LOST AND IS FOUND, not fellowship!
Right. He was out of fellowship, and now is back in fellowship. That's what it means, and no one has shown that it can't mean that.

And the very idea that one who has eternal life can die spiritually again is just impossible, as the Bible makes clear.

Please explain how eternal life dies. Or how God removes it from those who have it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Until you read it.
Nope. It isn't found in Scripture. One must "read it in" in order to "see" it.

For example. Matt 18 -- "Forgiveness revoked"
So what? What does this have to do with loss of eternal life? Please explain.

And then there is Romans 11 "you should fear - for if He did not spare them - neither will he spare you" for in Romans 11 you have "God's kindness IF you continue in doing good"
Good grief. Trying to pit Scripture against Scripture. Tsk.

Rom 11:29 says quite plainly that the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE. Please note that Paul didn't say "most", "many", "some", or "a few" of God's gifts are irrevocable. He said that THE GIFTS are irrevocable. That has to mean all of them, because he didn't specify less than all of them. And Rom 6:23 describes one of them, the gift of eternal life. So it is irrevocable. So your attempt to pit Scripture against Scripture fails.

The passage referenced has nothing to do with loss of salvation. It has EVERYTHING to do with being of service to God. Something that the Jews of Jesus' and Paul's time were convinced they were in service to God. But their unbelief literally cut them off from service to Him.

Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ"
Gal 5:4 - "you have fallen from Grace".

That is the warning to the once-saved-then-lost
Nope. Not even close. Let's take a look.
v.1 Paul writes that "Christ has set us free". Obviously free from the Law of Moses.
v.2 then Paul reminds them that if they return to the Law (by being circumcised), "Christ will profit them nothing". iow, circumcision, or any ritual done for legalistic reasons is harmful to one's spiritual life. When a believer adopts legalism, he ceases to benefit spiritually. Only by walking by faith can a believer find profit in his spiritual life.
The remainder of the paragraph is about the idea that Christ will profit the legalist nothing.

v.4 "you have become severed/estranged from Christ".
katargeō

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one

Once again we see the issue of being out of fellowship with Christ. Which clearly hurts one's spiritual life and growth.

This cannot be speaking either of losing eternal life or justification, since Paul described both as irrevocable gifts of God in Romans. And he didn't change his mind between Romans and Galatians.

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

Explained above.

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
How does any of this passage relate to salvation? It sure doesn't speak of losing salvation or eternal life.

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Why would one come to the conclusion that a believer who has been justified and given eternal life would lose it for not forgiving someone else?? Is salvation based on forgiving everyone?? No, it is based on faith in Christ. Not forgiving others.

The idea that God won't forgive us our sins IF we aren't forgiving others has nothing to do with losing salvation. It has to do with restoring fellowship, which 1 John 1:9 refers to as "cleansing".

Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life
The context makes clear it is speaking of physical life and death; not spiritual.

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.
What Paul was concerned about being disqualified from was eternal reward, not salvation.

One who is convinced that these and other passages teach loss of salvation will likely not accept my explanation of them, but my explanation is reasonable and fits the rest of Scripture.
 
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BobRyan

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Physically the brother was - "missing" -- not lost.
Physically the brother was not "dead".

But he was out of the family - and as a family member "dead" -- no longer living within the context of the family.

In Ephesians 1 -- we receive the adoption as children into God's family.
In John 1 "to as many as RECEIVED Him - he gave the right to be called the sons of God"

No text says that those who "do not receive him but rather are dead to him - are also called the sons of God"
 
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BobRyan

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There is nothing about loss of salvation that fits anywhere in Scripture.

Until you read it.

For example. Matt 18 -- "Forgiveness revoked"

And then there is Romans 11 "you should fear - for if He did not spare them - neither will he spare you" for in Romans 11 you have "God's kindness IF you continue in doing good"

Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ"
Gal 5:4 - "you have fallen from Grace".

That is the warning to the once-saved-then-lost


Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again


Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life



1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

Nope. It isn't found in Scripture. One must "read it in" in order to "see" it.

There we have our differences stated simply. One side needs to turn a blind eye to these texts -- the other side does not.

Let the reader choose then.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Nice "story" but in real life the truth of it is sitting right there on the page --
If there were no such thing as the loss of salvation - the Bible would never warn against it.

But as it is...
But as it really is...there is NOTHING in Scripture about losing eternal life, losing justification, losing salvation. Period. None of the verses that have been provided say anything such loss.

What the Bible clearly warns of is God's discipline for rebellious believers, and loss of eternal reward.

If salvation could be lost for ANY reason, I'm quite sure there would be at least ONE clear verse that plainly says so. That's just too important an issue for the Bible to be as vague as all your verses are.
 
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BobRyan

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Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life


Nope. It isn't found in Scripture. One must "read it in" in order to "see" it.

So what? What does this have to do with loss of eternal life? Please explain.
.

It does not get any easier than this my friends.

Those who imagine that not being forgiven of your sins is "salvation anyway" have 'another gospel'

Those who imagine that "I forgave you all that debt" -- debt fully forgiven -- "is not the Gospel" -- have "another gospel"
 
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EmSw

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I never said that's what it says. I said that's what it means. And, so far, you've not refuted anything I've explained. And it fits. Unlike your yo-yo thing.

You most certainly did say fellowship was dead. Here are your words:
"And that is my point: when the son left, fellowship with his father died, and when he returned, it was restored, or once more alive."

The Bible says the son, not fellowship, died. I don't have to refute you, the Bible does a great job of it. Fellowship is added by you, my friend, and you know it.

Right. He was out of fellowship, and now is back in fellowship. That's what it means, and no one has shown that it can't mean that.

It does not say he was out of fellowship! IT SAYS HE WAS DEAD!!! The wages of sin is NOT out of fellowship. If the son is dead, it means he does not possess eternal life. What is so hard for you to understand?

I am not interested what your sect has taught you to say. You will say anything to push and confirm your beliefs. And when your beliefs are not taught in the Word, I toss them aside. You are the only one who believes 'fellowship' is dead. Anyone can read for themselves that the 'son' was dead...period!

And the very idea that one who has eternal life can die spiritually again is just impossible, as the Bible makes clear.

Please explain how eternal life dies. Or how God removes it from those who have it.

Eternal life will never die. Where did you get such an idea? Eternal life is eternal whether you are part of it or not. You, my friend, are not eternal. And not being eternal, yes, you can die. You are acting like you are eternal life.

It's quite easy for God to remove it from rebellious sinners. Do you think heaven accepts continual sinners? Do you not know those who live in sin will not enter the kingdom of heaven?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life


It does not get any easier than this my friends.
Easier than this?

Rom 11:29 says that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.

Yes, it does not get any easier than these 2 verses regarding eternal security.

Those who peddle loss of salvation theology are just kicking against the plain truth of eternal security.

Those who imagine that not being forgiven of your sins is "salvation anyway" have 'another gospel'
No, that's on the LOS theology. We know that WHEN believes they ARE forgiven, according to Acts 10:43 - “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Now, 1 John 1:9 says this:
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Now, the confusion comes when one thinks that 1 Jn 1:9 is how an unbeliever gets saved, when in fact, it is Acts 10:43 that applies to unbeliever who believes in Christ. He is at that moment forgiven of all his sins.

1 Jn 1:9 is specifically for restoration of fellowship when the believer sins. Just count the number of times John specifically mentioned the word "fellowship" in ch 1 before he wrote v.9. So confession of sin for forgiveness is for the believer to restore fellowship, while Acts 10:43 is for the unbeliever receiving forgiveness of all sins by believing in Christ.

Those who imagine that "I forgave you all that debt" -- debt fully forgiven -- "is not the Gospel" -- have "another gospel"
The sin debt was FULLY PAID by Jesus Christ on the cross. That's why He said "tetalistai", or "It is finished". The Greek word was used by merchants to mean "paid IN FULL" when one's bill was paid in full.

Think of this: if one's overall forgiveness of sins is based on the on-going act of forgiving others, then Christ died for nothing.

So, please explain WHY He died on the cross if we must continue in any action in order to be or stay saved.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"I never said that's what it says. I said that's what it means. And, so far, you've not refuted anything I've explained. And it fits. Unlike your yo-yo thing."
You most certainly did say fellowship was dead.
Please actually read what I did say, which I've included above. My point is that the parable MEANS the fellowship died.

Here are your words:
"And that is my point: when the son left, fellowship with his father died, and when he returned, it was restored, or once more alive."

The Bible says the son, not fellowship, died. I don't have to refute you, the Bible does a great job of it. Fellowship is added by you, my friend, and you know it.
Like I said, I explained what the parable MEANS.

And the son did not literally die, nor did he die spiritually. So you've got a real problem on your hands if you want to take it either way.

The point remains that the son left the father in a state of being out of fellowship. Remember the issue: by asking for his share of the inheritance, he was essentially telling his father he wished that he was DEAD.

It does not say he was out of fellowship! IT SAYS HE WAS DEAD!!!
I know exactly what it says and means. And taking that either literally for physical death or for spiritual death makes NO SENSE. What does make sense is that the son was OUT of fellowship with his father. Kinda like un-friending his father on Facebook.

The wages of sin is NOT out of fellowship.
Please don't mix and match out of context verses. Rom 6:23 has NOTHING to do with the prodigal parable.

If the son is dead, it means he does not possess eternal life. What is so hard for you to understand?
I ask you the same thing about fellowship. It's very EASY to see that the son insulted his father greatly and left. There was NO fellowship between the 2.

I am not interested what your sect has taught you to say. You will say anything to push and confirm your beliefs.
"Sect" you say? What sect do you learn from? And I will say ONLY what I can show from Scripture.

And when your beliefs are not taught in the Word, I toss them aside.
The only thing you've tossed aside is truth. To hold on to your own sect's views.

You are the only one who believes 'fellowship' is dead. Anyone can read for themselves that the 'son' was dead...period!
He didn't get eternal life by returning to the father. There is NO Scripture that teaches that. People receive eternal life by BELIEVING in Jesus Christ. So your views about the son leaving the father and dying spiritually make no sense whatsoever.

Eternal life will never die. Where did you get such an idea? Eternal life is eternal whether you are part of it or not. You, my friend, are not eternal. And not being eternal, yes, you can die. You are acting like you are eternal life.
With nothing from my posts to lead anyone to such a ridiculous conclusion, it appears that you have quite an imagination and like to make stuff up.
 
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