Loss of Salvation Question

[BobRyan]

question:

Do you ever find a post where these few basic examples are addressed to show OSAS surviving the text???

======================== shorter and shorter list for those daunted by the larger list


Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Forgiving "all that debt"
"Having mercy on you"

These are gifts
====================

In Calvinism - God is the saboteur of his own Gospel - and the author of His own Isaiah 5:4 lament.

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"


Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

In Romans 9 Paul has made that same point - and explained how it works in the case of failure as is being highlighted in Romans 9 and 11.

Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants

Do you believe in exegesis and context?

Or are you still content with ignoring it? While also ignoring every detail in the examples given from Romans 11??

 

[sdowney717]

I agree completely. It points to the loss of salvation and warns those who "Stand only by their faith" to be warned away from doing that.

It points to individual salvation in Romans 11 saying that Paul was seeking to "save some of them" -- some of the Jews that had become lost - ... on an individual basis is how salvation works. He would loved to have saved them all - but they have free will.

Rom 11
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them


In real life there is no such thing as "all physical gentiles just so happen to be saved" and no such thing as "all physical jews just so happen to be saved"

There is no loss of salvation as Christ says that the sheep of Christ will never perish.
The qualifications were
1. Given to Him by the Father, so then those God foreknow He did also predestine to be confirmed to the image of Christ
2. Be one of His sheep given to Him by the Father, essentially again the same thing.

Since of the sheep are stated 3 qualifiers, hear His voice, Jesus knows them, the sheep follow Christ

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

IF someone claims to hear Christ, believe and does not follow Christ, then they are not one of the sheep of Christ, and Christ will tell them at the judgement, that He NEVER knew them, and they will depart from Him into Hell.

You still do not believe the clear words of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no loss of salvation as Christ says that the sheep of Christ will never perish.

Only if one remains as a "sheep of christ" but if one chooses to 'fall from grace' Galatians 5 says -- it is a problem.

hence -- the details you keep avoiding

5 minutes ago #541

 

[sdowney717]

Only if one remains as a "sheep of christ" but if one chooses to 'fall from grace' Galatians 5 says -- it is a problem.

hence -- the details you keep avoiding

5 minutes ago #541

I am not avoiding anything, your avoiding Christ's words about the sheep never perishing.
The sheep do not fall from grace, for it is by grace that you are of the saved, made safe with God.

Eph 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Romans 11 has nothing to do with individual election by grace to be saved. It is speaking broadly of salvation of jews versus gentiles, that is people groups. If you notice Paul tells us God will turn back His grace to Israel and save them at the end.
AND not all of the jews were hardened by God, some did believe in Christ. As did some of the gentiles.


Also you do not believe God hardens some people against Him, yet scripture clearly says He does. You call what God does evil, Jesus says blessed is he who takes no offense at me, that is at what He and God do.

Romans 9
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

IF God does not have mercy on you and save you, then you are hardened.
Those He has foreknown as His people in Christ are those who receive mercy from God to know the truth and be saved, the rest remain hardened. I suppose it is like God not passing the buck, He takes responsibility for all things, as all things are of, to through and for God.

Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Colossians 1
All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

To be before all things, means God has the primacy of all things, God works all things according to the council of His own will, God takes no counsel from any other being except Himself.

 

[sdowney717]

Our salvation is not of him who wills or he who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For some obtain mercy and some do not.
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Luke 10
Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

Here we see Paul teaches the same as Christ about those who will know Him and God. That knowing them is up to His will and not the will of man. Those whom He actively wills to know the Trinity, will know them and be saved. The simple desire to know 'God' does not guarantee that you will know the truth and be saved. He has the primacy in all things, including our individual salvation.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute to him his sin.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no loss of salvation as Christ says that the sheep of Christ will never perish.

Only if one remains as a "sheep of christ" but if one chooses to 'fall from grace' Galatians 5 says -- it is a problem.

hence -- the details you keep avoiding

5 minutes ago #541

question:

Do you ever find a post where these few basic examples are addressed to show OSAS surviving the text???

======================== shorter and shorter list for those daunted by the larger list


Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Forgiving "all that debt"
"Having mercy on you"

These are gifts
====================

In Calvinism - God is the saboteur of his own Gospel - and the author of His own Isaiah 5:4 lament.

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"


Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

In Romans 9 Paul has made that same point - and explained how it works in the case of failure as is being highlighted in Romans 9 and 11.

Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants

Do you believe in exegesis and context?

Or are you still content with ignoring it? While also ignoring every detail in the examples given from Romans 11??

====================================

I am not avoiding anything,

Really?

Then perhaps "now" is when you will be looking at Matt 18, Ezek 18, Romans 11 where 'you should fear'???

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

You shall we change the topic to John 10 about the fact that there are people that will go to heaven?

your avoiding Christ's words about the sheep never perishing.

hmmm... "there are people that will go to heaven". The one point NOT in debate.

Back to the issue where OSAS does not survive the actual text of the Bible.

The sheep do not fall from grace,

Here we find you "quoting you"

"you have been SEVERED from Christ...You have Fallen from GRACE... " Gal 5:4

Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Eph 2 does not say the wicked will "go to heaven anyway" because 20 years ago they were born again.

Eph 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Romans 11 has nothing to do with individual election by grace to be saved. It is speaking broadly of salvation of jews

Already proven false -- in the Romans 11 text you are ignoring where Paul speaks specifically 'to saving some of them' -- if Paul's argument were that ALL Jews - are lost "as a group" then in Romans 11 he would say "We Jews are lost".

He does not.


Instead of "ALL Jews lost as a group" we see this --

Rom 11
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Your solution is "anything BUT" the passages in Matt 18, Ezek 18 and Romans 11 that OSAS cannot survive.

=============================

Catholics are fond of arguing against Sola Scriptura over on the General Theology board area - and those in your group are fond of reminding them of the Bible principle in favor of SS -- yet here ...when your own man made traditions for OSAS are compared to actual scripture - your response is "anything BUT" the details in scripture that OSAS does not survive.

 

[BobRyan]

Eph 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Colossians 1
All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Great examples of saying nothing at all about OSAS - but proving that it is only by a bend-and-wrench of the text via "extreme inference" that such text could even be wildly in the most extreme fashion co-opted into OSAS of any kind.

Do yourself a favor for a day. Take a break from the uphill battle against the Bible and in favor of man-made-tradition of OSAS -- try instead the other side of the fence for a day. Notice how the Bible fits it perfectly - like a hand in glove.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nice "story" but in real life the truth of it is sitting right there on the page --
If there were no such thing as the loss of salvation - the Bible would never warn against it.

But as it is...

Yes, but as it exists (eternal security):
Romans 11:29 says that God's gifts and call are irrevocable.
Romans 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.

Paul never ever excluded any of God's gifts from being irrevocable.
Therefore, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

That is eternal security. Those who have eternal life:
WILL NEVER PERISH. John 3:16, 10:28
WILL NOT come into condemnation. John 5:24
HAVE PASSED FROM death (spiritual) to life (eternal). John 5:24

These are guarantees without qualifications to those who have eternal life.

There are no verses that tell us that eternal life, once given, can be taken away, lost, forfeited, or given away.

===========================
Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified


Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life

And none of these passages says that salvation can be lost, or that eternal life can be lost.

As 2 Peter 3 points out "God is not willing that ANY should perish".

Notice how Romans 2:4-16 puts it -- "there is NO partiality with God" Rom 2:13 - no such thing as the "arbitrary selection" doctrine in Calvinism's TULIP.

Calvinism doesn't "own" eternal security. It's not their exclusive doctrine.

God "So loved the WORLD - yes really!" is the Bible doctrine.
God "sent His Son to be the savior of the WORLD - yes really" 1 John 4:14
John 1:11 "He came to His OWN - and His OWN received Him not"
Rev 3 "Behold I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in"

What do any of these verses have to do with eternal security or loss of salvation?

btw, Rev 3:20 isn't evangelistic. No one gets saved by supping with the Lord. The verse, written to the church at Laodecia, is about fellowship. But that's another thread.

In the Arminian doctrine in the Bible - all of that simply fails to pass the test.

Arminianism fails the test of eternal security by believing that God's salvation can be lost, or taken away, or forfeited, or given away.

None of which has ever been shown to be found in Scripture.

That text does not say "he that believeth not on the Son and walks in rebellion is saved no matter what" as we can all admit.

What the Bible DOES teach is that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Rather - 1 John 2:7-9 says that whoever is claimng to know God and yet walking in rebellion to the Word and Commandments of God "is a liar".

Praise God that Jesus Christ died for lying. And that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Now you are talking sense.

Always have been.

Notice then - how careful you are not to refute the texts at all - but rather to ignore every detail listed.

Pray tell, what details have I ignored? Specifically? And please include post #.

Were we simply not supposed to notice?

When I examine whatever evidence you supposedly have, I'll let you know.

Do you believe in exegesis and context?

It's what I go by.

Or are you still content with ignoring it? While also ignoring every detail in the examples given from Romans 11??

Again, when the supposed evidence is provided, along with an actual post #, I'll examine it and then let you know.

notice this "detail" you are ignoring...

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Forgiving "all that debt"
"Having mercy on you"

These are gifts -

Says who? Where in the Bible are these described as gifts? Specifically where.

And your efforts to bend the Bible such that Christ's teaching Matt 18 'cannot exist' - results in your doctrine failing the test of scripture.

It seems there is a penchant to put FALSE words into the mouths of others. That's not a good habit or trait to have. I recommend therapy.

And what would make anyone think that I have ignored Matt 18? Or any part of it?

Because your argument is based on "extreme inference alone" - and flat out contradicts the plain statement in the text itself forcing Romans 11 to "speak its opposite" by ignoring every detail in the chapter save one part of one snip of one sentence.

I suppose it doesn't occur to you that this sentence makes no sense. But it doesn't.

What does "extreme inference alone" mean and refer to? When posters throw out bold claims and challenges, yet makes no effort at all to explain why or how their claims/challenges are correct, why should anyone accept them?

When challenging someone, please make clear what is being challenged. As it is, there is nothing I can respond to in this last sentence.

So, clarify, and I will respond.

 

[FreeGrace2]

question:

Do you ever find a post where these few basic examples are addressed to show OSAS surviving the text???

The better question is how loss of salvation survives a number of texts.

Here they are:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

If these 5 passages don't teach eternal security, please provide a brief explanation of what each one does teach.

I'd love to know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since of the sheep are stated 3 qualifiers, hear His voice, Jesus knows them, the sheep follow Christ

Got to stop you here. There is only ONE qualifier to be called "My sheep". What you've provided is a description of them. Not qualifiers.

The verse is John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters (metaphor for believing in Him) through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Notice how the Bible fits it perfectly - like a hand in glove.

There is nothing about loss of salvation that fits anywhere in Scripture.

 

[sdowney717]

Got to stop you here. There is only ONE qualifier to be called "My sheep". What you've provided is a description of them. Not qualifiers.

The verse is John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters (metaphor for believing in Him) through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The idea is these three things identifies them as Christ's sheep. They are like identifying marks- characteristics of those who are saved.
They hear Christ, Christ knows them, they follow Christ. If anyone does not follow Christ yet claims they are born of God, then they lie.

1 John 2

The Test of Knowing Him
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

If the Truth is not in you, then obviously He is not indwelling you, that is the Spirit of Truth whom the world can not receive, so then they are not saved. All saved people have Him indwelling them.

The people who keep on talking of loss of salvation, keep ignoring God's transforming power at work in the lives of believers. If anyone is in Christ they are a new creature, everything is become new, the old things in their life are passed away.
God is their Father and Christ their brother and they are born into the family of God, adopted, made acceptable in the beloved.
It is He that has made us not we ourselves. He has made us accepted to be one of the children of God given to Christ by God.

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

The idea is these three things identifies them as Christ's sheep. They are like identifying marks- characteristics of those who are saved.

Correct. But not qualifiers of how one is saved.

They hear Christ, Christ knows them, they follow Christ. If anyone does not follow Christ yet claims they are born of God, then they lie.

If they have believed in Him for eternal life, they have it and will never perish.

ps: believers do lie. That is no lie.

1 John 2

The Test of Knowing Him
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

If the Truth is not in you, then obviously He is not indwelling you, that is the Spirit of Truth whom the world can not receive, so then they are not saved. All saved people have Him indwelling them.

I think you've made a huge assumption about those who do not have the truth. Many believers do not have truth in them. They are ignorant of truth. They believe unbiblical things. But they are still saved. The deceiver deceives both believers and unbelievers.

1 Pet 5:8 isn't about unbelievers, but believers. And one way he devours them is through deceit and deception.

The people who keep on talking of loss of salvation, keep ignoring God's transforming power at work in the lives of believers.

Yes, and ignoring the many clear passages on eternal security.

If anyone is in Christ they are a new creature, everything is become new, the old things in their life are passed away.
God is their Father and Christ their brother and they are born into the family of God, adopted, made acceptable in the beloved.
It is He that has made us not we ourselves. He has made us accepted to be one of the children of God given to Christ by God.

Amen!

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

Amen!!

 

[bling]

Why don't you read my posts? I've already explained how the Bible uses "death" to mean "no more fellowship" or "break in fellowship", or "no fellowship" from the prodigal son.

All you have done is give your personal interpretation “conclusion” to one parable. Spiritual death and physical death have already been established as the two kinds of death humans can experience, so you need more than just a “possibility” to force a third type of death definition as a possibilities.

How would the first century Jewish audience understand the word “dead” since Jesus is trying to communicate to them the best way possible? They would be familiar with the concept of Spiritual death and physical death, but where in the Old Testament would they get the idea of “death” mean “out of fellowship”?

Psalms 88: I am overwhelmed with troubles and my life draws near to death. 4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am like one without strength. 5 I am set apart with the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave, whom you remember no more, who are cut off from your care.

Lam. 1: 20 “See, Lord, how distressed I am! I am in torment within, and in my heart I am disturbed, for I have been most rebellious. Outside, the sword bereaves; inside, there is only death.

He didn't spiritually die when he left the father. No one can prove such an idea. But the father described his departure as a death.

People don't die spiritually, get born again, then die spiritually again, and then beg born again, cycling. Which seems to be your view. But quite unbiblical.

I would not say the young son or the older son where ever among the saved to begin with, that is your assumption. They are decedents of the father, but all humans are decedents of God (made in God’s image) and decedent of Adam who was a child of God.

btw, once a person has received the gift of eternal life, that life CANNOT die, because it's eternal.

Again the inheritance is eternal life, but you can give away your inheritance (eternal life). It does not say we take on immortal bodies at our conversion, but when we die.

Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

We have to seek it to get it later.

1 Tim. 6 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,

Paul tells us we are not immortal at this time but God alone is.

2 Tim. 1: 10 …Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Immortality has been brought to light, but not given to us at this time.

Don't be silly. Of course this is about spiritual death. And becoming spiritually alive from the new birth.


Is that really so difficult to answer? Don't you know? Obviously one who has eternal life will NEVER see spiritual death.

If you stop “obeying” (quit) will you see death?

Whatever one "considers" (the meaning of 'count') doesn't result in either physical or spiritual death. So clearly it DOES relate to having NO FELLOWSHIP with sin.

And I'll explain WHY that is. Because we all continue to sin. It's not a one time thing, this 'death to sin'. When we sin, it's akin to fellowshipping with sin.


No, the opposite of eternal life is spiritual death.


Spiritual death, which Jesus Christ atoned for, thereby removing the penalty of sin.


Because what ceased to exist was fellowship with the father when the son left.

Jesus describes it as being much more and that is “being dead” (spiritual death) out of the realm of being eligible to receive help from the father.

Yes, it was just fellowship. When the son left, there was NO fellowship.

I agree there was “no fellowship”, but Christ goes beyond that to call it being “dead” which is much more than just a loss of fellowship. The father wanted to help the son but the son broke off the relationship to the point of the father not being even able to help the son. If a child is just “out of fellowship”, you can still do things for the child even at a distance from you.

When a child leaves home but "in fellowship" with parents, they can remain in contact ia phone, letter, social media, etc. iow, they continue to fellowship with each other. Now, I know there was none of this technology available to the prodigal, but the principle is the same.


I see no relevance of this to the discussion.


Great question, actually.

In spiritual death, which means separation from God, the person cannot fix that problem. Which is WHY Jesus Christ HAD to die on the cross for the sins of the world, and provide the gift of eternal life to all who believe in Him for it. That solves the separation problem.

If Jesus “solved the problem” for everyone, why is everyone not in fellowship with God?

Like the father in the prodigal son story God is waiting and wanting the child to come to Him, but it is the child that has to make the move.

In loss of fellowship, there is no communion with God. But the person CAN fix that problem by confession and repentance, which is EXACTLY what the prodigal did!

OK, the son repented (that was the son’s part). If the sinning believer can “repent’ and return to fellowship why can’t the nonbeliever repent and go to the father and the father accept him?

When a believer sins, he is grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit. By confession, he is forgiven and cleansed and fellowship is restored.

Can you explain or show how a person who is grieving or quenching another person can STILL have fellowship with them? I can't conceive of such a thought.

I did not say “they still have fellowship” and say they do not have fellowship, but if it is not just “fellowship” since the father can still support the son through others. The Prodigal sons father could send him help through others or even pay people in the land to hire and support him. Being “dead” meant there was nothing the father could/would/should do for the son, since the father has already done all he can to help the son grow to be like the father himself if the son is willing. The allowing the son to reach bottom is helping the son have the best opportunity to humbly accept the father’s help (pure charity) as charity.

The objective for the son is to become like the father himself (and the father will do all he can to help him with that objective) so the son will have an unselfish huge Godly type Love. The only way to get that Love is: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” so the son must humbly accept the father’s forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt, so the son will automatically have an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

Those who teach the prodigal is about losing and regaining salvation are essentially teaching a yo-yo salvation cycle. Which is not biblical, of course. And "over years" is irrelevant. Doesn't matter.

No they are not.

No. If he sinned while IN the house, he would STILL lose fellowship with his father. Just as the older son demonstrated at the end of the parable.

Jesus does not describe the older son as “dead” or out of fellowship. The end of the parable is interesting in that the question of whether the older son goes to the party or not is left unanswered. The Pharisees in the audience would realize Jesus was talking about them as the older son and had left them with the question to finish the story for themselves.

The parable of the prodigal, which has been explained in detail. Now, rather than just disagree, please take all my points about the parable, and explain how they cannot be true.

So you are saying this is the only place where “dead” means “out of fellowship”? If that is true Jesus is making it extremely difficult for his audience to get the “earthly” meaning of the parable. Do you find that with other parables of Jesus?

The prodigal son might best be referring to gentiles at this time, who will come to the kingdom later.

That's God's plan for each believer, just as continuing to believe is His plan for us. But not all believers comply.

I said this:
"I see it the other way around. When a believer chooses to sin, they grieve (Eph 5:18) and/or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. And as such, fellowship is lost. Or, dead, as the parable of the prodigal indicated."

Where do you get such weird ideas from what I post?? I never said anything close to what is being insinuated. Of course quenching isn't equated with killing one's self.

The Christian sins resulting in quenches the Spirit resulting in dis-fellowship which results in death. So you bring upon your “death” by sinning? It is just your “death” in this case is not spiritual and physical, but that is the two alternatives.

This opens up the debate about WHEN God puts the soul into the body. I will only say this: a newborn, who HAS a soul, goes to heaven. Why? Because Christ died for his/her sins. And since they have no ability as yet to discern right from wrong, or make any kind of decisions, His death covers them. I reject the Calvinistic teaching that only "elect babies" go to heaven. There is no support for that from Scripture.

OK, but still confusing. If a new born baby is heaven bound from birth and then later “sins” which results in them being hell bound, how does that differ from a Christian going from a state of heaven bound to hell bound?

When the believer sins, fellowship ceases with the Father. And they need to be cleansed, per 1 Jn 1:9.

Sorry but scripture says more than just “ fellowship ceases”, but says you are a slave to sin “which leads to death”.

That's very clear. I wasn't sure you'd have understood that because of your human limitations.


Your opinion is invalid. In 2 places Abraham's impotence is described as being "dead". And the prodigal is described as being "dead" when apart from the father, and "alive" when he returned in repentance and confession.

No! In two places it does not describe Abraham’s impotency as being “death”, but as the verses say “good as dead”. The definition of “dead” in those two verses is in keeping with one of the two definitions used “spiritual and physical death” and here it is in keeping with the physical death definition. You do not have to “add” a definition for the word “dead” to understand these passages.

Rom 4:19 - Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead.

Heb 11:12 - And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

You really have no idea? I guess it's all about you human limitations then.

But the Bible does teach that there is a difference. If you can't understand it, then you'll just have to take it on faith. Or reject it. Which isn't the best choice.


Wouldn't matter, based on the rest of your post.


See above.

You repeatedly avoid answering this question and now suggest it is my fault you cannot answer?

Really? You're actually worshiping when you're sinning????

If we do any “good works” they are worship and we can always do good works.

Where did suggest "I do not know" and then suggest I did know? Please cite post # and actual quote.

“We work on earth FOR eternal reward. iow, what we get in heaven as a reward was worked for, or earned while on earth.” Post 368

The reward is earned while on earth, and given in heaven. Post 368

But now say: “no person on earth is able to answer every single question”.

They were not rewarded at all. How can payment for work be a reward?

You said in post 368: what we get in heaven as a reward was worked for, or earned while on earth.”

You now say: “rewards are not payments”, so what is the difference between a “payment” and getting something that you have “earned while working” here on earth?

Are you not familiar with the meaning of "reward"??

Col. 3: 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward.

People do not earn/work for an inheritance but it is the result of their birth (rebirth for Christians) and not giving up their inheritance.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

God is literally at our elbow so He is not someone we have to “work at to find”, so the reward is not something we worked to get.

2 John 1:8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

As in the parable of the vineyard workers you are “rewarded/payment” equal no matter how much “work” you did, but are rewarded/paid for all the other stuff every Christian does. The reward is for things the person “did”, but not for the work itself done even though we all did some work. Matt. 20:1-16.


I asked you: “It is not that they were not rewarded for “working”, but it was an equal reward, so what is that reward?” But if you do not like the word “reward”, please tell me what the equal payment is spiritually representing?

 

[FreeGrace2]

All you have done is give your personal interpretation “conclusion” to one parable.

Isn't that what everyone does? Or, just accept someone else's "own personal interpretation"?

Spiritual death and physical death have already been established as the two kinds of death humans can experience, so you need more than just a “possibility” to force a third type of death definition as a possibilities.

I wasn't talking about mere possibilities. My explanation can easily be seen in the parable. Even by those who never heard it before.

What needs to be done is to prove that loss of fellowship cannot be what the father meant by "my son was dead".

How would the first century Jewish audience understand the word “dead” since Jesus is trying to communicate to them the best way possible? They would be familiar with the concept of Spiritual death and physical death, but where in the Old Testament would they get the idea of “death” mean “out of fellowship”?

Well, this sure shows that you aren't reading my posts. I already explained exactly HOW a 1st Century Jew would understand what the prodigal MEANT by asking for his share of the inheritance.

It was tantamount to telling his father he wanted him DEAD physically so he could get his inheritance NOW rather than waiting for the old man to kick the bucket some time in the future.

So when the son left home, it was under extremely negative conditions. It wasn't a friendly departure. He had just indicated that he wished his father was dead.

And loss of fellowship fits that scenario perfectly.

What certainly doesn't fit the parable is spiritual death. Because it leaves open the possibility of the son leaving again under less than favorable conditions.

So again, the conclusion is a yo-yo theology of spiritual death, then life, then spiritual death, then life, ad nauseum.

I agree there was “no fellowship”, but Christ goes beyond that to call it being “dead” which is much more than just a loss of fellowship.

You've not shown how your own personal interpretation is any better than mine.

The father wanted to help the son but the son broke off the relationship to the point of the father not being even able to help the son. If a child is just “out of fellowship”, you can still do things for the child even at a distance from you.

Still not really understanding what "out of fellowship" means. And the son didn't "break off the relationship" with his father. No one can severe the physical relationship. That is permanent. Just as our spiritual relationship with God as His children is permanent.

He broke off fellowship with his father.

If Jesus “solved the problem” for everyone, why is everyone not in fellowship with God?

Because it's a choice, just like sinning is a choice.

Like the father in the prodigal son story God is waiting and wanting the child to come to Him, but it is the child that has to make the move.

Yep, just what I said. It's a choice. That's why Jesus told His 11 remaining disciples that IF they "abide" in Him, He will "abide" in them. And produce fruit. No believer can product fruit when they are out of fellowship.

OK, the son repented (that was the son’s part). If the sinning believer can “repent’ and return to fellowship why can’t the nonbeliever repent and go to the father and the father accept him?

Because the unbeliever doesn't have either eternal life or a relationship with the Father as His child. That's why.

I find no reason to respond to the rest of this rather long post. It's just more re-hash of what I've already explained.

You and anyone else is free to accept or reject my explanation. I have no problem with that.

But you've not refuted anything I've said about the parable.

 

[bling]

Isn't that what everyone does? Or, just accept someone else's "own personal interpretation"?
.

No, they give support to their understanding so we can agree on the most likely interpretation.

I wasn't talking about mere possibilities. My explanation can easily be seen in the parable. Even by those who never heard it before.

What needs to be done is to prove that loss of fellowship cannot be what the father meant by "my son was dead".
.

“Proving” to a skeptic a negative is virtually impossible. What we are looking for is the “most likely alternative interpretation”. We agree “dead” means: physical or spiritual dead, for most if not all other times in scripture, so Jesus would be misleading the audience by having it mean this one time “loss of fellowship” without explaining it that way. Jesus could have just as easily “loss of fellowship” and not used a much more dramatic word like “dead”.

Well, this sure shows that you aren't reading my posts. I already explained exactly HOW a 1st Century Jew would understand what the prodigal MEANT by asking for his share of the inheritance.

It was tantamount to telling his father he wanted him DEAD physically so he could get his inheritance NOW rather than waiting for the old man to kick the bucket some time in the future.

So when the son left home, it was under extremely negative conditions. It wasn't a friendly departure. He had just indicated that he wished his father was dead.

And loss of fellowship fits that scenario perfectly..

Under the Old Law the son should have been stoned, for being disrespectful to his parent so being "dead" seems fit better.

What certainly doesn't fit the parable is spiritual death. Because it leaves open the possibility of the son leaving again under less than favorable conditions..

No, it just does not “fit” your doctrine of OSAS. The son can sin again, but as long as he does not “leave” the father and not return he is not lost, so would the younger son be going and coming every week after he had this one experience? I do not see him forgetting this experience.

So again, the conclusion is a yo-yo theology of spiritual death, then life, then spiritual death, then life, ad nauseum.


You've not shown how your own personal interpretation is any better than mine. .

The Father says specifically: “this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.

The word “dead” is being contrasted with being “alive” and not “back in fellowship”, so if dead is out of fellowship, alive would be fellowship, but that is not a definition for fellowship. Also, Christ has “dead”=lost and alive=found, so does lost=spiritually dead (which we would agree with, I think) and found would be returning to life like the lost sheep would quickly die, if he had not been found?

I use one of the two definitions of “dead” that scripture gives.

The “dead” son is in the context of the lost lamb and lost coin, so are they just out of fellowship or in a lost state?

Still not really understanding what "out of fellowship" means. And the son didn't "break off the relationship" with his father. No one can severe the physical relationship. That is permanent. Just as our spiritual relationship with God as His children is permanent.

He broke off fellowship with his father.


Because it's a choice, just like sinning is a choice.


Yep, just what I said. It's a choice. That's why Jesus told His 11 remaining disciples that IF they "abide" in Him, He will "abide" in them. And produce fruit. No believer can product fruit when they are out of fellowship.
.

If you do not produce fruit will you not be cut off and thrown in the fire?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Father says specifically: “this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.

The word “dead” is being contrasted with being “alive” and not “back in fellowship”

You've not refuted my understanding at all. Just having a disagreement with it.

And that is my point: when the son left, fellowship with his father died, and when he returned, it was restored, or once more alive.

so if dead is out of fellowship, alive would be fellowship, but that is not a definition for fellowship. Also, Christ has “dead”=lost and alive=found, so does lost=spiritually dead (which we would agree with, I think) and found would be returning to life like the lost sheep would quickly die, if he had not been found?

I'm just sorry that you don't see the obvious erroneous conclusion of your interpretation; that the son could keep dying spiritually and made alive again, over and over.

There was nothing in the parable to suggest just a one time event.

I use one of the two definitions of “dead” that scripture gives.

And you missed the one about Abraham's impotence being referred to as "dead".

The “dead” son is in the context of the lost lamb and lost coin, so are they just out of fellowship or in a lost state?

One doesn't have fellowship with a coin or sheep. And the word "dead" was never used for either the coin or sheep. Again supporting my interpretation of the meaning of "dead". For the coin and sheep, the only word used was "lost". For the son, the word "dead" was added. And my interpretation cannot be refuted.

Who can refute the FACT that the son's leaving ended fellowship with the father?

If you do not produce fruit will you not be cut off and thrown in the fire?

Yep, that's what Jesus said. Now, how well does one understand agricultural metaphors?

Also, the term "cut off" is found over 200 times in the Bible, the vast majority in the OT. Are you aware of how it is used in the OT? Because that's the way Jesus would have used it, since He was speaking to Jews, not Gentiles. So one must understand what it meant in the OT in order to understand how Jesus meant it.

 

[EmSw]

You've not refuted my understanding at all. Just having a disagreement with it.

And that is my point: when the son left, fellowship with his father died, and when he returned, it was restored, or once more alive.

Perhaps you need to actually read what it says.

Luke 15
32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.

It does not say fellowship died as you suppose. IT SAYS YOUR BROTHER WAS DEAD AND IS ALIVE AGAIN. THE SON WAS LOST AND IS FOUND, not fellowship!

 

[BobRyan]

There is nothing about loss of salvation that fits anywhere in Scripture.

Until you read it.

For example. Matt 18 -- "Forgiveness revoked"

And then there is Romans 11 "you should fear - for if He did not spare them - neither will he spare you" for in Romans 11 you have "God's kindness IF you continue in doing good"

Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ"
Gal 5:4 - "you have fallen from Grace".

That is the warning to the once-saved-then-lost


Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life


1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

 

[BobRyan]

Which is what we already is in scripture - in this post --

Those who don't believe in eternal security have to twist scripture a lot to make it work.

Nice "story" but in real life the truth of it is sitting right there on the page --
If there were no such thing as the loss of salvation - the Bible would never warn against it.

But as it is...

===========================
Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified


Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life

Romans 11 is more specifically of God's salvation in Christ turned towards the gentile nations due to the jews being broken off the True Vine Christ in unbelief, rejecting Christ really by God's design,

There is no such thing as "evil by God's design" or "rejecting Christ by God's design".

As 2 Peter 3 points out "God is not willing that ANY should perish".

Notice how Romans 2:4-16 puts it -- "there is NO partiality with God" Rom 2:13 - no such thing as the "arbitrary selection" doctrine in Calvinism's TULIP.

God "So loved the WORLD - yes really!" is the Bible doctrine.
God "sent His Son to be the savior of the WORLD - yes really" 1 John 4:14
John 1:11 "He came to His OWN - and His OWN received Him not"
Rev 3 "Behold I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in"

In Calvinism - God is the saboteur of his own Gospel - and the author of His own Isaiah 5:4 lament.

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

In the Arminian doctrine in the Bible - all of that simply fails to pass the test.
========================================

Take the following verses for example. You have to then say that "oh well you once had eternal life, but then God took it away when you sinned". It's a foolish notion, and clearly goes against the essence of what's being said.

1 John 4:10-13
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

That text does not say "he that believeth not on the Son and walks in rebellion is saved no matter what" as we can all admit.

That text does not say "He who believeth on the son has lost his free will and can never fail to continue to believe and obey".

Rather - 1 John 2:7-9 says that whoever is claimng to know God and yet walking in rebellion to the Word and Commandments of God "is a liar".

Seems that the text itself speaks to the "opposite" point that you would have it speak at that point.

Every biblical text is irrefutable.

I think you will agree with me - that we get that a lot from our atheist friends.

No text from the Bible can be refuted. That would be ridiculous.

Now you are talking sense.


Notice then - how careful you are not to refute the texts at all - but rather to ignore every detail listed.

Were we simply not supposed to notice?

Do you believe that all of God's gifts or just some of God's gifts are irrevocable?
Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

In Romans 9 Paul has made that same point - and explained how it works in the case of failure as is being highlighted in Romans 9 and 11.

Rom 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants

Do you believe in exegesis and context?

Or are you still content with ignoring it? While also ignoring every detail in the examples given from Romans 11??


notice this "detail" you are ignoring...

Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Forgiving "all that debt"
"Having mercy on you"

These are gifts -

And your efforts to bend the Bible such that Christ's teaching Matt 18 'cannot exist' - results in your doctrine failing the test of scripture. Because your argument is based on "extreme inference alone" - and flat out contradicts the plain statement in the text itself forcing Romans 11 to "speak its opposite" by ignoring every detail in the chapter save one part of one snip of one sentence.