Loss of Salvation Question

[bcbsr]

As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Falling short of that performance one loses their potential to be saved and have to gain it back again through confession and the pledge to change one's behavior.

I've seen a bit of diversity among the LOS types as to what constitutes falling short. The Catholics, for example distinguish between "venial" sins, as they define them, which bring the consequence of purgatorial suffering, and "mortal" sins which bring eternal condemnation in hell fire. And I've seen those of the Charles Finney holiness type of soteriology whereby any sin will cause one to lose their potential to be saved.

It's those in particular I would question as to how that is actually lived out. But other LOS run into the same issue.

Namely if, for example, at a point in time you envy your neighbor's property, and thus sin and as such lose your potential to be saved, but you forget that you sinned and consequently end up not confessing it, doesn't that make any such sins as you overlook, unpardonable sins, seeing as no confession follows?

Or is it that such people hold that one is only accountable for sins of which they "feel" guilty for?

 

[Soyeong]

I think the key is not thinking about our salvation as just a static point, but also as something that is happening, and will happen. We have been saved from the penalty of our sins (Ephesians 2:5), we are being saved from sinning (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10). Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), so our salvation necessarily involves being redeemed from the penalty of transgressing God's law by grace through faith being saved from continuing to transgress God's law by being trained by grace through faith to do what is godly and to renounce ungodliness in keeping with our redemption from lawlessness and with God's instructions in His law for how to do good works:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

We are saved by grace through faith not by doing good works, but rather we have been made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10), and all OT Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). So it is not that our salvation is contingent upon our good works, but rather that our salvation is contingent upon our continued faith in the promise of a redeemer from lawlessness and our faith in God to lead us away from lawlessness, which is demonstrated through our good works in obedience to God's law.

According to Matthew 18:21-35, there is nothing we can do to pay our own debt or to earn Messiah's payment of our debt on our behalf, but there are things that can cause our debt to be reinstated, namely unforgiveness and unrepentance. Messiah stated that if we do not forgive others, then we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15), so unforgiveness and unrepentance are unpardonable sins because they cut us off from the very means from which we can obtain forgiveness and repentance, but they do not prevent us from turning back to forgiveness and repentance. God will always forgive us if we repent from our ways and turn back to obedience to His ways no matter what sins we have committed. We do not go through cycles of losing or gaining our salvation with each time we sin and repent, but rather our salvation is contingent on our our faith, which determines whether our practice is one of repentance and obedience, or of sin.

 

[bcbsr]

Soyeong

I found your comment to be somewhat contradictory. You seem to be unclear in your own thinking as to whether salvation is or is not contingent upon one's ongoing performance.

Let me ask you, let's say you committed a sin, and thus lost your salvation as you say in the end of your comment. But you overlooked it, or forgot about it, and so never ended up confessing it. Say, for example, if you were greedy, but simply didn't think of yourself as being greedy, holding a less than perfect standard with regards to greed, and so never "repented" from such greed.

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong

I found your comment to be somewhat contradictory. You seem to be unclear in your own thinking as to whether salvation is or is not contingent upon one's ongoing performance.

Let me ask you, let's say you committed a sin, and thus lost your salvation as you say in the end of your comment. But you overlooked it, or forgot about it, and so never ended up confessing it. Say, for example, if you were greedy, but simply didn't think of yourself as being greedy, holding a less than perfect standard with regards to greed, and so never "repented" from such greed.

I'm sorry if I was not clear. Salvation is not contingent on our works, but rather it is contingent on our faith. Our faith includes trusting God's promise of a redeemer and trusting God to lead us into doing good works and away from sin. If we trust God about how we should live, then we will live in obedience to His law, however it is not the obedience that saves us, but rather it is our trust in God that saves us. We are saved from sin not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing what God has revealed to be good works and avoiding what He has revealed to be sin.

At the end of my post, I said "We do not go through cycles of losing or gaining our salvation with each time we sin and repent" so I was not suggesting that we lose our salvation every time we sin, but just the opposite. Sin offerings were only for unintentional sins (Leviticus 4:2), so it is possible to sin unintentionally, and it is something that we should seek forgiveness for doing. However, repentance is not primarily about confessing our sorrow for doing something wrong, but rather it is about changing our actions, so I think our actions can demonstrate our repentance even if we forget to verbally express it. In other words, expressing your repentance doesn't hurt, but it is just an expression where your heart is, and it is where your heart is that is what is important.

 

[bcbsr]

I'm sorry if I was not clear. Salvation is not contingent on our works, but rather it is contingent on our faith. Our faith includes trusting God's promise of a redeemer and trusting God to lead us into doing good works and away from sin. If we trust God about how we should live, then we will live in obedience to His law, however it is not the obedience that saves us, but rather it is our trust in God that saves us. We are saved from sin not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing what God has revealed to be good works and avoiding what He has revealed to be sin.

At the end of my post, I said "We do not go through cycles of losing or gaining our salvation with each time we sin and repent" so I was not suggesting that we lose our salvation every time we sin, but just the opposite. Sin offerings were only for unintentional sins (Leviticus 4:2), so it is possible to sin unintentionally, and it is something that we should seek forgiveness for doing. However, repentance is not primarily about confessing our sorrow for doing something wrong, but rather it is about changing our actions, so I think our actions can demonstrate our repentance even if we forget to verbally express it. In other words, expressing your repentance doesn't hurt, but it is just an expression where your heart is, and it is where your heart is that is what is important.

Again, it doesn't seem to me that you understand what you're saying. Let me clarify.

Chose "A" or "B".

A: A person's salvation status is contingent upon their ongoing behavior.
B: A person's salvation status is NOT contingent upon their ongoing behavior.

Now if you choose "A", then you can go back and answer the question I asked at the beginning of this thread. I infer that you are of the opinion "A", but you have since been unwilling to admit it up to this point.

So you're saying that one must continue to work to be saved by maintaining a "good enough" but not perfect behavior. OK, if that's your view of the standard one must maintain to hold on to their salvation status, then I would ask you how do you know whether or not you have lived up to that standard at this point?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, it doesn't seem to me that you understand what you're saying. Let me clarify.

Chose "A" or "B".

A: A person's salvation status is contingent upon their ongoing behavior.
B: A person's salvation status is NOT contingent upon their ongoing behavior.

Now if you choose "A", then you can go back and answer the question I asked at the beginning of this thread. I infer that you are of the opinion "A", but you have since been unwilling to admit it up to this point.

So you're saying that one must continue to work to be saved by maintaining a "good enough" but not perfect behavior. OK, if that's your view of the standard one must maintain to hold on to their salvation status, then I would ask you how do you know whether or not you have lived up to that standard at this point?

So your saying we can do evil and sin and be saved?
Doesn't sound like one is the good guy or that one is a good person of God if they believe in such a way.
For if God is good and then logic dictates that His people are good, too.
You don't need a Bible to tell you that. But if you do, the Bible does say so, as well (if you really are truly interested).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, it doesn't seem to me that you understand what you're saying. Let me clarify.

Chose "A" or "B".

A: A person's salvation status is contingent upon their ongoing behavior.
B: A person's salvation status is NOT contingent upon their ongoing behavior.

Now if you choose "A", then you can go back and answer the question I asked at the beginning of this thread. I infer that you are of the opinion "A", but you have since been unwilling to admit it up to this point.

So you're saying that one must continue to work to be saved by maintaining a "good enough" but not perfect behavior. OK, if that's your view of the standard one must maintain to hold on to their salvation status, then I would ask you how do you know whether or not you have lived up to that standard at this point?

The simple solution to this conundrum is that Salvation is:

(a) Not Works Alone Salvationism
(Anti-Grace or No Trust in Jesus Christ who is our Savior)

(b) Not Belief Alone Salvationism
(Which leads to Anti-Moralism, Evil, or Lawlessness)​

Salvation is:

(c) Jesus Christ and or Relationship-ism
(For Jesus saves us not just by trusting in Him by faith alone but Jesus saves us from our old life of sin, too).​

For Jesus saves us both in Justification (by repentance and believing in Jesus) and in Sanctification (by allowing Christ to do the good work within us - See John 15:5).

Most Eternal Security Proponents are confused because they see the word "Law" and think it is in reference to all Law when it is in reference to Old Testament Law and or Works Alone Salvationism. So they see any kind of good work in abiding with Christ's working within us as a threat. As if doing good was bad or something. Yet, they think they can sin (do evil) and still be saved. In other words, up is down and down is up. Good is bad and bad is good. Sweet for bitter and bitter for sweet.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Falling short of that performance one loses their potential to be saved and have to gain it back again through confession and the pledge to change one's behavior.

I've seen a bit of diversity among the LOS types as to what constitutes falling short. The Catholics, for example distinguish between "venial" sins, as they define them, which bring the consequence of purgatorial suffering, and "mortal" sins which bring eternal condemnation in hell fire. And I've seen those of the Charles Finney holiness type of soteriology whereby any sin will cause one to lose their potential to be saved.

It's those in particular I would question as to how that is actually lived out. But other LOS run into the same issue.

Namely if, for example, at a point in time you envy your neighbor's property, and thus sin and as such lose your potential to be saved, but you forget that you sinned and consequently end up not confessing it, doesn't that make any such sins as you overlook, unpardonable sins, seeing as no confession follows?

Or is it that such people hold that one is only accountable for sins of which they "feel" guilty for?

Well, I am not Catholic, and or Eastern Orthodox. In fact, I am not a big fan of any church with a denonimational name whereby they gather in a temple like building (instead of meeting up in homes like they did in the New Testament). However, I do believe the Bible teaches that there are mortal sins and venial sins (although I prefer to use the Biblical terms instead). These would be "sins unto death" and "sins not unto death." This is spoken about generally in 1 John 5:16-18 (if you are interested).

"Sins not unto death" would be a believer refusing to obey the Command to be baptized (See 1 Peter 3:21), or hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12) and or any sins that one would confess and forsake (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7).

"Sins unto death" would be a believer refusing to repent of any horrible sins like murder, adultery, theft, drunkeness, and lying, etc. (See Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19-21, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:36-37, 1 John 3:15).

They are called "sins unto death" because they are sins that lead unto the Second Death (Which is also known as the Lake of Fire - See Revelation 21:8).

For believers can be cast into the Lake of Fire because of their sin (See Matthew 13:41-42).

As for the issue of worrying whether or not you committed a sin unto death. Well, the Holy Spirit would convict a believer of their sin. If they refused to repent of such a sin, then God could chastise them if they are truly a child of God and they are not reprobate. Chastisement leads the believer in being corrected by God whereby good behavior and not bad behavior is the result. Also, a believer can do a study on the Commands within the New Testament, too. So it is not like they are off the hook because of their own laziness. For we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15); And we are to be doers of the Word and not hearers only (deceiving our ownselves)(James 1:22). For God wants loyal servants and not couch potato addicts who live for themselves and sin. Jesus wants us to be conformed into His image (behavior wise) according to His Word.


....

 

[Soyeong]

Again, it doesn't seem to me that you understand what you're saying. Let me clarify.

Chose "A" or "B".

A: A person's salvation status is contingent upon their ongoing behavior.
B: A person's salvation status is NOT contingent upon their ongoing behavior.

Now if you choose "A", then you can go back and answer the question I asked at the beginning of this thread. I infer that you are of the opinion "A", but you have since been unwilling to admit it up to this point.

So you're saying that one must continue to work to be saved by maintaining a "good enough" but not perfect behavior. OK, if that's your view of the standard one must maintain to hold on to their salvation status, then I would ask you how do you know whether or not you have lived up to that standard at this point?

Our salvation is from sin, so it necessarily involves being made to stop having a sinful behavior and to start having a righteous behavior. However, this change in behavior does not come through our own efforts, but through faith or through depending on God to change us. So again, our salvation is not contingent upon our ongoing behavior, but on our ongoing dependence on God to change our behavior. God's command to do good works has never been about being good enough to be saved. God did not require the Israelites to do a good enough job of obeying His law before He would save them out of bondage in Egypt, but rather He saved them by faith first, then gave them instructions for how to do good works. Likewise, we are saved by grace through faith not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them (Ephesians 2:8-10). The law is God's instructions for how those He has declared righteous by faith are do what is righteous by faith, not how to become righteous.

 

[FireDragon76]

A lot of the advice here sounds like a good recipe for needless scrupulosity.

Due to the advent of Christ, sin is exposed as not so much a thing we do as a condition we live in. In a sense, we can't help but sin. Deadly sins are anything of a serious matter that we do that does not come from love and that we feel no contrition or sorrow for. Yet, there is no law against love (Gal 5:23).

"Good deeds" in that sense can be serious sins, in fact that is easily so. If I give money to charity because I want everybody in my community to think I'm a good person, or if I only go to church because I want people to see how good a person I am that is a deadly sin, because it's ultimately about pride, not love. Those are good examples of the sorts of sins we should be worrying about. Too many Christians worry about sins that are ultimately trivial (and actually most Christians tend to elevate sexual sins to an importance that is dangerously unbalanced), or they worry about outward conformity to behaviors or moral codes, which contributes nothing to salvation in itself.

But, I would say if I go to church because I need to hear the Gospel so I can be a better spouse or father or friend... that is not a sin, in fact that's a good thing. If I give money to charity because I believe it's a good cause and my conscience tells me it's the right thing to do, that is not a sin. See the difference?

I would just invite people to read some about Lutheran or Reformed ethics. The focus on law-keeping and fruit-picking is not the way to find peace with God.

 

[Near]

As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Falling short of that performance one loses their potential to be saved and have to gain it back again through confession and the pledge to change one's behavior.

I believe Christians can backslide and go to hell.
With that said, I don't think anyone loses salvation, because it can't be lost like an object. Salvation is a process. There is no where in the bible where it says salvation is some thing that can be lost. Salvation is not a ticket to heaven, and you can't talk about it as a ticket to heaven. "If you sin you lose your ticket to heaven". Everyone who is going through the process of salvation, is saved or being saved from sin, and death. Once we're saved, we're not in a state of sinning. Christians are both saved, and being saved. So, while they remain holy, God still guides them through life, through a safe passage way in life, in his guidance. One's good performance is evidence of God's work in their lives, it is God who is doing the saving.
Salvation isn't lost, but can the process of salvation be suspended, or ceased? Yes. If a christian willfully turns his back on God, and dies in his sin, it seems that his salvation ceased; he then became lost himself. This is called works-damnation, and it comes from the wicked works of man. As for confession and repentance, that's evidence of salvation, not salvation itself. God who grants mercy, is the one who saves us, and leads us to repentance by his grace and patience, without which repentance is not possible. For if God wills, he could kill us after a single sin, so it's not repentance that earns us a ticket to heaven, but rather it's God's compassion that saves us.

It's those in particular I would question as to how that is actually lived out. But other LOS run into the same issue.

Namely if, for example, at a point in time you envy your neighbor's property, and thus sin and as such lose your potential to be saved, but you forget that you sinned and consequently end up not confessing it, doesn't that make any such sins as you overlook, unpardonable sins, seeing as no confession follows?

I believe as long as a person is alive, and God want's them to be saved, they have potential to be saved during that entire time. Then again, we'd have to look at what potential really means if everything is foreknown by God. To the question though, it seems to me that general repentance over sin is what God wants from us, and he will work with us to transform our lives. I don't believe he'll let us abide in sin if we're really being saved. It is God who forgives, even if we can't remember every single detail. God will bring to our minds whatever he wants.

Chose "A" or "B".

A: A person's salvation status is contingent upon their ongoing behavior.
B: A person's salvation status is NOT contingent upon their ongoing behavior.

Either a person is being saved, or is not being saved. Behavior is evidence of the salvation process, but it isn't the source of our salvation. So, the answer is B. Salvation is NOT contingent upon one's behavior.

 

[bcbsr]

Well, I am not Catholic, and or Eastern Orthodox. In fact, I am not a big fan of any church with a denonimational name whereby they gather in a temple like building (instead of meeting up in homes like they did in the New Testament). However, I do believe the Bible teaches that there are mortal sins and venial sins (although I prefer to use the Biblical terms instead). These would be "sins unto death" and "sins not unto death." This is spoken about generally in 1 John 5:16-18 (if you are interested).

"Sins not unto death" would be a believer refusing to obey the Command to be baptized (See 1 Peter 3:21), or hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12) and or any sins that one would confess and forsake (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7).

"Sins unto death" would be a believer refusing to repent of any horrible sins like murder, adultery, theft, drunkeness, and lying, etc. (See Revelation 21:8, Galatians 5:19-21, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:36-37, 1 John 3:15).

They are called "sins unto death" because they are sins that lead unto the Second Death (Which is also known as the Lake of Fire - See Revelation 21:8).

For believers can be cast into the Lake of Fire because of their sin (See Matthew 13:41-42).

As for the issue of worrying whether or not you committed a sin unto death. Well, the Holy Spirit would convict a believer of their sin. If they refused to repent of such a sin, then God could chastise them if they are truly a child of God and they are not reprobate. Chastisement leads the believer in being corrected by God whereby good behavior and not bad behavior is the result. Also, a believer can do a study on the Commands within the New Testament, too. So it is not like they are off the hook because of their own laziness. For we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15); And we are to be doers of the Word and not hearers only (deceiving our ownselves)(James 1:22). For God wants loyal servants and not couch potato addicts who live for themselves and sin. Jesus wants us to be conformed into His image (behavior wise) according to His Word.


....

Jason,

So in distinguishing "mortal" sins from "venial" sins you're saying that a person can sin and still be saved.

And you're saying basically that you only need to repent of sins you feel guilty for. So you're saying for example if a Christian is living a sexually immoral lifestyle, but doesn't feel guilty for doing so, then he doesn't have to repent of that sin, let alone lose his salvation for sinning.

Well Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[bcbsr]

Our salvation is from sin, so it necessarily involves being made to stop having a sinful behavior and to start having a righteous behavior. However, this change in behavior does not come through our own efforts, but through faith or through depending on God to change us. So again, our salvation is not contingent upon our ongoing behavior, but on our ongoing dependence on God to change our behavior. God's command to do good works has never been about being good enough to be saved. God did not require the Israelites to do a good enough job of obeying His law before He would save them out of bondage in Egypt, but rather He saved them by faith first, then gave them instructions for how to do good works. Likewise, we are saved by grace through faith not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them (Ephesians 2:8-10). The law is God's instructions for how those He has declared righteous by faith are do what is righteous by faith, not how to become righteous.

Soyeong,

So you're saying salvation is not contingent upon our ongoing behavior, but if our ongoing behavior is not up to par we end up in hell. Which is to say our salvation is contingent upon our ongoing behavior.

 

[bcbsr]

I believe Christians can backslide and go to hell.
With that said, I don't think anyone loses salvation, because it can't be lost like an object. Salvation is a process. There is no where in the bible where it says salvation is some thing that can be lost. Salvation is not a ticket to heaven, and you can't talk about it as a ticket to heaven. "If you sin you lose your ticket to heaven". Everyone who is going through the process of salvation, is saved or being saved from sin, and death. Once we're saved, we're not in a state of sinning. Christians are both saved, and being saved. So, while they remain holy, God still guides them through life, through a safe passage way in life, in his guidance. One's good performance is evidence of God's work in their lives, it is God who is doing the saving.
Salvation isn't lost, but can the process of salvation be suspended, or ceased? Yes. If a christian willfully turns his back on God, and dies in his sin, it seems that his salvation ceased; he then became lost himself. This is called works-damnation, and it comes from the wicked works of man. As for confession and repentance, that's evidence of salvation, not salvation itself. God who grants mercy, is the one who saves us, and leads us to repentance by his grace and patience, without which repentance is not possible. For if God wills, he could kill us after a single sin, so it's not repentance that earns us a ticket to heaven, but rather it's God's compassion that saves us.


I believe as long as a person is alive, and God want's them to be saved, they have potential to be saved during that entire time. Then again, we'd have to look at what potential really means if everything is foreknown by God. To the question though, it seems to me that general repentance over sin is what God wants from us, and he will work with us to transform our lives. I don't believe he'll let us abide in sin if we're really being saved. It is God who forgives, even if we can't remember every single detail. God will bring to our minds whatever he wants.


Either a person is being saved, or is not being saved. Behavior is evidence of the salvation process, but it isn't the source of our salvation. So, the answer is B. Salvation is NOT contingent upon one's behavior.

What I mean by loss of "potential" to be saved is the rhetoric those of an LOS soteriology must logically use. Since salvation from hell is about a future event it cannot be spoken of in the present or past tense unless it is certain. That is, only by those of an OSAS soteriology can one speak of salvation in the past, just like the Bible says.

"For it is by grace you have been saved"

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

But LOS types can only say they potentially could be saved from hell. But they lose the possibility of being saved, if - fill in the blank. Typically most LOS types speaking of losing the potential to be saved by sinning in some fashion and gaining it back through confession and repentance. So my point is LOS ends up making salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance. A fact which you'll note in this thread they are reluctant to admit to.

 

[bling]

As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Falling short of that performance one loses their potential to be saved and have to gain it back again through confession and the pledge to change one's behavior.

I've seen a bit of diversity among the LOS types as to what constitutes falling short. The Catholics, for example distinguish between "venial" sins, as they define them, which bring the consequence of purgatorial suffering, and "mortal" sins which bring eternal condemnation in hell fire. And I've seen those of the Charles Finney holiness type of soteriology whereby any sin will cause one to lose their potential to be saved.

It's those in particular I would question as to how that is actually lived out. But other LOS run into the same issue.

Namely if, for example, at a point in time you envy your neighbor's property, and thus sin and as such lose your potential to be saved, but you forget that you sinned and consequently end up not confessing it, doesn't that make any such sins as you overlook, unpardonable sins, seeing as no confession follows?

Or is it that such people hold that one is only accountable for sins of which they "feel" guilty for?

The Hebrew writer uses the analogy of a birthright (Heb. 12: 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.)

It is not “sin” directly that causes the Christian to not go to heaven (it seems for the most part all Christians do sin at least sometimes after be “saved”.)

The Christian has an unconditional gift of salvation, given when they became a Christian, but just like a person unconditionally given the deed to a car, that person can sell the car or give it away, while the person that gave them the car cannot just take it back (it was given unconditionally).

Some Christians seek the perceived pleasures of sin to the point eternal life in a place of the eternal Love feast (only Godly type Love) does not have value to them.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's really not a good idea to discuss what is, and isn't a deadly sin in the abstract. You really need to be committed to a community (like a church) of some sort first, to contextualize what that even means. Too much speculation reflects a self-willed attitude to spirituality that isn't healthy.

Trusting in the goodness of God is the critical thing. Because none of us can fully know the sins we have committed, our "sin detectors" are broken. When you trust in God, God himself will gradually show you the things you need to repent of. You do not need to engage in self-willed behaviors and scrupulously look for faults in yourself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason,

So in distinguishing "mortal" sins from "venial" sins you're saying that a person can sin and still be saved.

A play on words does not really prove that you are right in any way. There are tons of words in the english language that are spelled the same way but have completely two different meanings. They are called homonyms. For example: The bark of the dog echoed up the tree at the squirrel who was hanging on the bark of the tree at the top near the branches.

In fact, homonyms even exist within the Bible, too. For example: the words "sons of God" refers to angels in the Old Testament, but to believers in the New Testament. The word "law" can be used to refer to the Old Testament Law of Moses, for the Old Law was a school master that brought us unto Christ (Galatians 3:24), and the word "law" can also be used to refer to New Testament Law such as the "Law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2) or the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:2).

Now, while using a homonym in the wrong way is tricky wording on your part, you know that there is a difference between not taking the trash out last week (like you were supposed to) versus murdering someone. One is a grevious sin that is mentioned in Revelation 21:8 and is tied with the Lake of Fire. The other is not. For him to knoweth to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin. Surely not all things that a believer knows to do good in a situation is going to cause them to be cast into the Lake of Fire. That is what the Judgment Seat of Christ is for.

Even Jesus said there is a greater sin (John 19:11).
Jesus said there is a type of sin that cannot be forgiven (Matthew 12:31).

And you're saying basically that you only need to repent of sins you feel guilty for. So you're saying for example if a Christian is living a sexually immoral lifestyle, but doesn't feel guilty for doing so, then he doesn't have to repent of that sin, let alone lose his salvation for sinning.

Please go back and re-read what I had written. I said that a person is also to study the Bible to show themselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15). They are also to be doers of the Word and not hearers deceiving their own selves (James 1:22).

But I am glad you brought up this point. Can a believer practice sexual immorality and not repent of such a sin and be saved? Can a believer practice hurting children and not repent of such a sin and be saved? Can a believer be an axe murderer and not repent of such a sin be saved? Surely not. That is the whole point I am trying to get accross here. There are sins that can separate you from God.

Well Thanks for sharing your opinion.

It is not opinion. I actually placed Bible references in my previous post for you to check out for yourself.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe Christians can backslide and go to hell.
With that said, I don't think anyone loses salvation, because it can't be lost like an object. Salvation is a process. There is no where in the bible where it says salvation is some thing that can be lost. Salvation is not a ticket to heaven, and you can't talk about it as a ticket to heaven. "If you sin you lose your ticket to heaven". Everyone who is going through the process of salvation, is saved or being saved from sin, and death. Once we're saved, we're not in a state of sinning. Christians are both saved, and being saved. So, while they remain holy, God still guides them through life, through a safe passage way in life, in his guidance. One's good performance is evidence of God's work in their lives, it is God who is doing the saving.
Salvation isn't lost, but can the process of salvation be suspended, or ceased? Yes. If a christian willfully turns his back on God, and dies in his sin, it seems that his salvation ceased; he then became lost himself. This is called works-damnation, and it comes from the wicked works of man. As for confession and repentance, that's evidence of salvation, not salvation itself. God who grants mercy, is the one who saves us, and leads us to repentance by his grace and patience, without which repentance is not possible. For if God wills, he could kill us after a single sin, so it's not repentance that earns us a ticket to heaven, but rather it's God's compassion that saves us.


I believe as long as a person is alive, and God want's them to be saved, they have potential to be saved during that entire time. Then again, we'd have to look at what potential really means if everything is foreknown by God. To the question though, it seems to me that general repentance over sin is what God wants from us, and he will work with us to transform our lives. I don't believe he'll let us abide in sin if we're really being saved. It is God who forgives, even if we can't remember every single detail. God will bring to our minds whatever he wants.


Either a person is being saved, or is not being saved. Behavior is evidence of the salvation process, but it isn't the source of our salvation. So, the answer is B. Salvation is NOT contingent upon one's behavior.

I liked what you said in the majority of your post a lot. But I partly disagree with your conclusion, my fellow soldier in Christ. While it is true that Christ (God) is the One who works in us and does the good work within our hearts and lives (Whereby He ultimately gets the glory), we DO have to cooperate with Jesus. In fact, you said yourself,

"If a christian willfully turns his back on God, and dies in his sin, it seems that his salvation ceased; he then became lost himself."​

This is a person's choice or behavior changing their destiny in relation to the salvation that God provides for us. A person has to initially accept Jesus as their Savior to be saved and they have to continue in Him and overcome to stay saved. Yes, the source of our salvation is Jesus (God). This is very very very true. Jesus is the source of our Eternal life (1 John 5:12) (John 14:6) (John 6:35) (1 Timothy 6:16). But if a believer resisted God's salvation to begin with or if they resisted God's salvation later on (Based on their free will choice or behavior) it sure seems like a believer will not be saved. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). This would be us cooperating with the good work that Christ wants to do within our hearts and lives. This would be a true faith (that abides in Christ) that naturally produces works versus (vs.) the heresy of "Works Alone Salvationism" (Anti-grace or no need for our Savior Jesus Christ) or the heresy of "Belief Alone Salvationism" (Which leads to Anti-moralism, Evil, and Lawlessness). Anyways, salvation is Jesus. Salvation is in having a Relationship. In this Relationship we walk with God. But how can two walk together unless they be agreed? (Amos 3:3).


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jason,

So in distinguishing "mortal" sins from "venial" sins you're saying that a person can sin and still be saved.

And you're saying basically that you only need to repent of sins you feel guilty for. So you're saying for example if a Christian is living a sexually immoral lifestyle, but doesn't feel guilty for doing so, then he doesn't have to repent of that sin, let alone lose his salvation for sinning.

Well Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I realize it is hard for some here to accept, but homonyms do exist in the Bible.

Anyways, may God's love and peace shine upon you.


...