Loss of Salvation Question

[Soyeong]

Soyeong,

So you're saying salvation is not contingent upon our ongoing behavior, but if our ongoing behavior is not up to par we end up in hell. Which is to say our salvation is contingent upon our ongoing behavior.

Where have I stated that we end up in hell if our ongoing behavior is not up to par?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where have I stated that we end up in hell if our ongoing behavior is not up to par?

Do you believe a saint can abide in unrepentant sin like lying or lusting and die in those sins and still be saved? Or do you believe it is not possible for a true believer to experience something like that because God only chooses those He knows who will endure in their faith to the end?


...

 

[Near]

What I mean by loss of "potential" to be saved is the rhetoric those of an LOS soteriology must logically use. Since salvation from hell is about a future event it cannot be spoken of in the present or past tense unless it is certain. That is, only by those of an OSAS soteriology can one speak of salvation in the past, just like the Bible says.

"For it is by grace you have been saved"

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

Salvation isn't only from hell. Saved, being saved, and salvation can be used in a couple of biblical ways. Salvation from sin, from death, from this corrupt generation, from lies, from ignorance, from sickness, from some peril and etc.

The bible also contains phrases about believers being saved as well as saved.

1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

2 Cor 2:15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing

I haven't read any compelling arguments that it is hell and hell alone which we are saved from. As I understand it's quite a few things we're saved from.

But LOS types can only say they potentially could be saved from hell. But they lose the possibility of being saved, if - fill in the blank. Typically most LOS types speaking of losing the potential to be saved by sinning in some fashion and gaining it back through confession and repentance. So my point is LOS ends up making salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance. A fact which you'll note in this thread they are reluctant to admit to.

They can say they're saved from sin, and the wages of sin, spiritual death. In that way, they are saved, just not in the sense of referring to hell primarily, but rather as a consequence of being saved from that which leads to spiritual death which leads to hell.

They can also say they're presently saved from hell, since God at anytime could have just killed them and sent them to hell.

Salvation from sin isn't contingent upon performance. Performance is necessary evidence of salvation. It can't be gained, because it's a process, and not an object, nor is it a service that we pay for; rather God freely chooses to have mercy on whomever he will have mercy. I think the issue is that some tend to look at salvation without considering in what way we are saved, which is through Jesus, the Truth, and genuine faith in him.

 

[Near]

While it is true that Christ (God) is the One who works in us and does the good work within our hearts and lives (Whereby He ultimately gets the glory), we DO have to cooperate with Jesus. In fact, you said yourself,

"If a christian willfully turns his back on God, and dies in his sin, it seems that his salvation ceased; he then became lost himself."
This is a person's choice or behavior changing their destiny in relation to the salvation that God provides for us. A person has to initially accept Jesus as their Savior to be saved and they have to continue in Him and overcome to stay saved. Yes, the source of our salvation is Jesus (God). This is very very very true. Jesus is the source of our Eternal life (1 John 5:12) (John 14:6) (John 6:35) (1 Timothy 6:16). But if a believer resisted God's salvation to begin with or if they resisted God's salvation later on (Based on their free will choice or behavior) it sure seems like a believer will not be saved. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). This would be us cooperating with the good work that Christ wants to do within our hearts and lives. This would be a true faith (that abides in Christ) that naturally produces works versus (vs.) the heresy of "Works Alone Salvationism" (Anti-grace or no need for our Savior Jesus Christ) or the heresy of "Belief Alone Salvationism" (Which leads to Anti-moralism, Evil, and Lawlessness). Anyways, salvation is Jesus. Salvation is in having a Relationship. In this Relationship we walk with God. But how can two walk together unless they be agreed? (Amos 3:3).

I think the issue here is that people aren't being clear when referring to salvation. I can talk about salvation in a number of different ways, and it doesn't exclusively mean being saved from hell even in a Christian sense.
The reason why I said salvation in a general sense, is not contingent upon our behavior is because the occurrence of a person having saving faith, and christian behavior means salvation itself has occurred and is occurring. Contingent simply isn't the right word to use, because it means reforming behavior results in salvation which itself includes personal moral reformation. One does not say a process is contingent upon something which is itself a part of the process.
If salvation is a relationship, we don't say the relationship is contingent upon the relationship.

Yes, I did say, "If a christian willfully turns his back on God, and dies in his sin, it seems that his salvation ceased; he then became lost himself."

I stand by that, but talking about OSAS, and LOS, or taking sides on that is pointless if what it means to be saved is not clear.

 

[Job8]

As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance.

There is no such thing as "potential to be saved". Every human being has the "potential" to be saved, but once a sinner is saved, the issue of potential is moot. Salvation is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes. Repentance implies turning away from sins and idols. But salvation is a gift, not a reward. There will be rewards, but that is a separate issue.

So on what grounds is salvation a gift? It is a gift on the finished redemptive work of Christ in His sufferings, death, burial, and resurrection. Salvation includes many facets which we will not get into, but salvation cannot be lost for the simple reason that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given to the believer, and the Holy Spirit seals the believer and also baptizes him into the Body of Christ. As a result the perfection and glorification of the saint is predestined, and therefore incontrovertible.

We need not get into discussions about how God deals with sinning saints, but the fact of the matter is that there are many ways that God deals with them short of losing their salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the issue here is that people aren't being clear when referring to salvation. I can talk about salvation in a number of different ways, and it doesn't exclusively mean being saved from hell even in a Christian sense.

You said earlier to another this,

"Salvation isn't only from hell. Saved, being saved, and salvation can be used in a couple of biblical ways. Salvation from sin, from death, from this corrupt generation, from lies, from ignorance, from sickness, from some peril and etc."​

Do you have any Biblical proof that this is what the word "saved" or "salvation" is referring to in the way you suggest above here?

The reason why I said salvation in a general sense, is not contingent upon our behavior is because the occurrence of a person having saving faith, and christian behavior means salvation itself has occurred and is occurring. Contingent simply isn't the right word to use, because it means reforming behavior results in salvation which itself includes personal moral reformation. One does not say a process is contingent upon something which is itself a part of the process. If salvation is a relationship, we don't say the relationship is contingent upon the relationship.

I would have to disagree respectuflly. If a husband is unfaithful to his wife, that relationship can be damaged and be beyond repair. It is no different with a person who walks with God. Just because a believer has been regenerated and reformed and have a new nature to do the good things of God and have the Lord working within their heart and life does not mean their free will is no longer there anymore and that they cannot turn away from God. Yes, I believe there is a point where a believer will have God's Word take root within their heart and they will be far less likely to turn their back on God, but no believer can ever truly ignore the warning that says we are to overcome so as not to be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2:11).

Yes, I did say, "If a christian willfully turns his back on God, and dies in his sin, it seems that his salvation ceased; he then became lost himself."

I stand by that, but talking about OSAS, and LOS, or taking sides on that is pointless if what it means to be saved is not clear.

I believe that what you said here is contradictory to what you said before. For if one were to walk away from God it was not something that God did or did not do, but it was something the individual did based on their behavior.


...

 

[Near]

Do you have any Biblical proof that this is what the word "saved" or "salvation" is referring to in the way you suggest above here?

Yes,
Acts 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!
Luke 1:70-71 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—Salvation FROM OUR ENEMIES, And FROM THE HAND OF ALL WHO HATE US;

Matthew 1:21 is the clearest.

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

I haven't read anywhere where it says salvation is specifically from hell.

I would have to disagree respectuflly. If a husband is unfaithful to his wife, that relationship can be damaged and be beyond repair. It is no different with a person who walks with God. Just because a believer has been regenerated and reformed and have a new nature to do the good things of God and have the Lord working within their heart and life does not mean their free will is no longer there anymore and that they cannot turn away from God. Yes, I believe there is a point where a believer will have God's Word take root within their heart and they will be far less likely to turn their back on God, but no believer can ever truly ignore the warning that says we are to overcome so as not to be hurt by the second death (Revelation 2:11).

Yes, we must do our part in overcoming, and I agree with what you're saying.
A person can damage and shipwreck their faith. 1 Tim 1:19
A person can lack fruit and be cut off and cast into the fire. Matt 7:19
What I'm simply saying is the logically speaking, if we talk about salvation from sin, it is not contingent upon itself. It's not self-contingent. It's contingent upon genuine faith which has works but first and foremost God's grace.
With the understanding of salvation that I have, the OP is basically asking:

Chose "A" or "B".

A: A person's salvation from sin is contingent upon their salvation from sin.
B: A person's salvation from sin is NOT contingent upon their salvation from sin.

"A" is self-contingency. Something that depends on itself. Am I supposed to be saying that salvation from sin is the result of salvation from sin? That's silly.

So, B, because salvation from sin is dependent upon logically prior factors, and the process involves synergism, God and man working together. Specifically, God works upon a man's heart, man becomes willing to receive the gospel through some turn of events, and causes, at the point of conversion, a man is saved from sin, and is being saved from further sin. With that said, should he choose to go back to sin, the actualization of salvation from sin is suspended since the point of salvation, is to be saved from sin. Ergo, if a man is sinning, he's not saved from sin. He requires saving.

I believe that what you said here is contradictory to what you said before. For if one were to walk away from God it was not something that God did or did not do, but it was something the individual did based on their behavior.

I don't think I'm contradicting myself at all. I said it wasn't contingent. I didn't say that sin wouldn't cause us to be separated from God. It certainly does. We need to repent and follow Jesus in order to get back into the security that God provides.

Just to clarify, I'm looking at the word contingent in a specific way. Philosophically, relating to logic.

For the most part, I've been talking about salvation from sin. I mostly haven't really been talking about heaven and hell regarding salvation.

 

[Near]

Chose "A" or "B".

A: A person's salvation status is contingent upon their ongoing behavior.
B: A person's salvation status is NOT contingent upon their ongoing behavior.

I want to clarify.

Matt 5:29“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30“If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

It seems by salvation status, you actually meant, the status of "on the road to hell", or "on the path to heaven".

Perhaps a better way to put it is this:

A: A person's status of either "on the road to hell", or "on the path to heaven", depends on what is evident in their lives. Sin can change the status.
or
B: A person's status of either "on the road to hell", or "on the path to heaven", doesn't depend on what is evident in their lives. Not even sin can change the status.

I choose A.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes,
Acts 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!
Luke 1:70-71 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—Salvation FROM OUR ENEMIES, And FROM THE HAND OF ALL WHO HATE US;

How can one truly be saved for all time against this perverse generation, our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us?
By being in God's Kingdom where nobody bad can touch them.

Matthew 1:21 is the clearest.

"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

When a person is abiding in unrepentant sin, they are on the road to the Lake of Fire. This can apply to both the unbeliever and the believer. In the believer's case, it would be their abiding in sin after their refusal to repent upon the conviction of the Spirit. Anyways, when Jesus saves His people from their sins, He is not only helping them to later overcome their sin (By the Sanctification process), but He initally first saves His people from their sin by being able to forgive them of their sin based their coming to Him in faith. So when Jesus saves a person of their sins, Jesus takes them off the road of going to the Lake of Fire and places them on the road to going to the Kingdom of God.

Jesus says to the many disciples to rejoice not the devil's are subject unto you, but rejoice that your names are written in Heaven (Luke 10:20).
John said to certain believers, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).

I haven't read anywhere where it says salvation is specifically from hell.

The Bible does not always use words that we prefer.

He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11).
Jesus says it is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body cast into hell fire over lusting with one's eyes after a woman (Matthew 5:28-30).
John lists many sins in Revelation 21:8 that will cause them to have their part in the Lake of Fire. This is the destiny of what we are ultimately being saved from.
The book of Jude says, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:23).

Do you believe there is an actual real life Lake of Fire we are be saved from?
Do you believe a person can be saved from this the moment they first believe in Jesus Christ?
What about the thief on the cross?
Yes, it is true, a person has to continue in Jesus and His goodness if they are to live out their faith.
But we are ultimately saved from destruction in the Lake of Fire and are saved to be with Jesus and His glorious Kingdom.
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." (Hebrews 13:4).

Yes, we must do our part in overcoming, and I agree with what you're saying.
A person can damage and shipwreck their faith. 1 Tim 1:19
A person can lack fruit and be cut off and cast into the fire. Matt 7:19
What I'm simply saying is the logically speaking, if we talk about salvation from sin, it is not contingent upon itself. It's not self-contingent. It's contingent upon genuine faith which has works but first and foremost God's grace.
With the understanding of salvation that I have, the OP is basically asking:

Chose "A" or "B".

A: A person's salvation from sin is contingent upon their salvation from sin.
B: A person's salvation from sin is NOT contingent upon their salvation from sin.

"A" is self-contingency. Something that depends on itself. Am I supposed to be saying that salvation from sin is the result of salvation from sin? That's silly.

So, B, because salvation from sin is dependent upon logically prior factors, and the process involves synergism, God and man working together. Specifically, God works upon a man's heart, man becomes willing to receive the gospel through some turn of events, and causes, at the point of conversion, a man is saved from sin, and is being saved from further sin. With that said, should he choose to go back to sin, the actualization of salvation from sin is suspended since the point of salvation, is to be saved from sin. Ergo, if a man is sinning, he's not saved from sin. He requires saving.


I don't think I'm contradicting myself at all. I said it wasn't contingent. I didn't say that sin wouldn't cause us to be separated from God. It certainly does. We need to repent and follow Jesus in order to get back into the security that God provides.

Just to clarify, I'm looking at the word contingent in a specific way. Philosophically, relating to logic.

For the most part, I've been talking about salvation from sin. I mostly haven't really been talking about heaven and hell regarding salvation.

Not sure what you mean by "self contigent." Please use a more simpler word or words. I like the original options as they were. Does salvation rely upon our behavior? I have to say "yes" because nobody who is an adult gets into the Kingdom of God without making a decision for Christ both in first accepting Him initially and in making the decision to continue in Christ and His good ways. Yes, God regenerating us helps us to reform, but our free will is not taken away. We still must choose the Lord of our own free will every day. This does not mean we are the authors of salvation. Jesus saves.

I think the best way to look at it is sort of like a person who is hanging on a cliff face and he needs to reach up to the person laying down on the edge of the cliff to grab their hand so as to be pulled up and be saved from potential death. The person who is pulling them up to safety (if they grab on) is the one who is ultimately saving them but yet, if the person who needs to be rescued did not grab the hand of the person who is seeking to save them and or they let go of the hand of the one pulling them up, they would fall down the cliff and die.

In other words, we have to respond and cooperate with abiding in Jesus who is the source of our salvation.

...

 

[FreeGrace2]

How can one truly be saved for all time against this perverse generation, our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us?
By being in God's Kingdom where nobody bad can touch them.



When a person is abiding in unrepentant sin, they are on the road to the Lake of Fire. This can apply to both the unbeliever and the believer. In the believer's case, it would be their abiding in sin after their refusal to repent upon the conviction of the Spirit. Anyways, when Jesus saves His people from their sins, He is not only helping them to later overcome their sin (By the Sanctification process), but He initally first saves His people from their sin by being able to forgive them of their sin based their coming to Him in faith. So when Jesus saves a person of their sins, Jesus takes them off the road of going to the Lake of Fire and places them on the road to going to the Kingdom of God.

Jesus says to the many disciples to rejoice not the devil's are subject unto you, but rejoice that your names are written in Heaven (Luke 10:20).
John said to certain believers, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (1 John 5:13).



The Bible does not always use words that we prefer.

He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11).
Jesus says it is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body cast into hell fire over lusting with one's eyes after a woman (Matthew 5:28-30).
John lists many sins in Revelation 21:8 that will cause them to have their part in the Lake of Fire. This is the destiny of what we are ultimately being saved from.
The book of Jude says, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 1:23).

Do you believe there is an actual real life Lake of Fire we are be saved from?
Do you believe a person can be saved from this the moment they first believe in Jesus Christ?
What about the thief on the cross?
Yes, it is true, a person has to continue in Jesus and His goodness if they are to live out their faith.
But we are ultimately saved from destruction in the Lake of Fire and are saved to be with Jesus and His glorious Kingdom.
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." (Hebrews 13:4).



Not sure what you mean by "self contigent." Please use a more simpler word or words. I like the original options as they were. Does salvation rely upon our behavior? I have to say "yes" because nobody who is an adult gets into the Kingdom of God without making a decision for Christ both in first accepting Him initially and in making the decision to continue in Christ and His good ways. Yes, God regenerating us helps us to reform, but our free will is not taken away. We still must choose the Lord of our own free will every day. This does not mean we are the authors of salvation. Jesus saves.

I think the best way to look at it is sort of like a person who is hanging on cliff face and he needs to reach up to the person laying down on the edge of the cliff to grab their hand so as to be pulled up and be saved from potential death. The person who is pulling them up to safety (if they grab on) is the one who is ultimately saving them but yet, if the person who needs to be rescued did not grab the hand of the person who is seeking to save them and or they let go of the hand of the one pulling them up, they would fall down the cliff and die.

In other words, we have to respond and cooperate with abiding in Jesus who is the source of our salvation....

What do you do with the fact that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God?

Short of simply denying what the Scripture says, please clarify.

 

[sdowney717]

What I mean by loss of "potential" to be saved is the rhetoric those of an LOS soteriology must logically use. Since salvation from hell is about a future event it cannot be spoken of in the present or past tense unless it is certain. That is, only by those of an OSAS soteriology can one speak of salvation in the past, just like the Bible says.

"For it is by grace you have been saved"

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

But LOS types can only say they potentially could be saved from hell. But they lose the possibility of being saved, if - fill in the blank. Typically most LOS types speaking of losing the potential to be saved by sinning in some fashion and gaining it back through confession and repentance. So my point is LOS ends up making salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance. A fact which you'll note in this thread they are reluctant to admit to.

Good point about our salvation already taken place in the past.
For those who are really saved, as are all saved persons saved, salvation is most definitely spoken of as past tense. it took place in our past for us who are saved.
From the divine POV, which is God's POV and the only one which matters, recall Romans 8 says it like this,

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The words
predestined, called, justified, glorified are all completed works from God's perspective. And so we should also view it from ours.
Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, this is only for those He has saved, that is made safe with God.

Hebrews 9
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Christ bears the sins only of the saved, those who are safe with God. All the unsaved bear their sins experiencing God's wrath and at the judgment, the lake of fire, the second death.
Christ says if you do not believe in Him, you will surely die in your sins. We who believe have passed from death to life, again our salvation spoken of in the past.

When Christ returns He brings salvation from this evil world system that the saved ones who are left until His returning are experiencing. Those who are eagerly awaiting Christ are already saved spiritually, but we also look forward to the redemption of our bodies (the resurrection) and the creation itself.

If you have to work for your salvation then no one could be saved, since all have sinned. Christ came to earth and put away our sins by the sacrifice of Himself.
There is no salvation outside of Christ. Working for your own salvation is outside of the mercy and grace of God. And all who labor under that are under a curse as is says here...

Galatians 3:10-13New King James Version (NKJV)
The Law Brings a Curse
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;
for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”,

All those who labor to do good to be saved, to save their own souls, God's curse be on you now and forever! Leanness of the soul is sent to you.
Psalm 106 says we are saved for His name's sake.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm+106&version=NKJV
Psalm 106New King James Version (NKJV)
Joy in Forgiveness of Israel’s Sins
1 Praise the Lord!

Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.

2 Who can utter the mighty acts of the Lord?
Who can declare all His praise?
3 Blessed are those who keep justice,
And he who does righteousness at all times!

4 Remember me, O Lord, with the favor You have toward Your people.
Oh, visit me with Your salvation,
5 That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones,
That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation,
That I may glory with Your inheritance.

6 We have sinned with our fathers,
We have committed iniquity,
We have done wickedly.
7 Our fathers in Egypt did not understand Your wonders;
They did not remember the multitude of Your mercies,
But rebelled by the sea—the Red Sea.

8 Nevertheless He saved them for His name’s sake,
That He might make His mighty power known.
9 He rebuked the Red Sea also, and it dried up;
So He led them through the depths,
As through the wilderness.
10 He saved them from the hand of him who hated them,
And redeemed them from the hand of the enemy.
11 The waters covered their enemies;
There was not one of them left.
12 Then they believed His words;
They sang His praise.

13 They soon forgot His works;
They did not wait for His counsel,
14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness,
And tested God in the desert.
15 And He gave them their request,
But sent leanness into their soul.

16 When they envied Moses in the camp,
And Aaron the saint of the Lord,
17 The earth opened up and swallowed Dathan,
And covered the faction of Abiram.
18 A fire was kindled in their company;
The flame burned up the wicked.

19 They made a calf in Horeb,
And worshiped the molded image.
20 Thus they changed their glory
Into the image of an ox that eats grass.
21 They forgot God their Savior,
Who had done great things in Egypt,
22 Wondrous works in the land of Ham,
Awesome things by the Red Sea.
23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them,
Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach,
To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them.

24 Then they despised the pleasant land;
They did not believe His word,
25 But complained in their tents,
And did not heed the voice of the Lord.
26 Therefore He raised His hand in an oath against them,
To overthrow them in the wilderness,
27 To overthrow their descendants among the nations,
And to scatter them in the lands.

28 They joined themselves also to Baal of Peor,
And ate sacrifices made to the dead.
29 Thus they provoked Him to anger with their deeds,
And the plague broke out among them.
30 Then Phinehas stood up and intervened,
And the plague was stopped.
31 And that was accounted to him for righteousness
To all generations forevermore.

32 They angered Him also at the waters of strife,
So that it went ill with Moses on account of them;
33 Because they rebelled against His Spirit,
So that he spoke rashly with his lips.

34 They did not destroy the peoples,
Concerning whom the Lord had commanded them,
35 But they mingled with the Gentiles
And learned their works;
36 They served their idols,
Which became a snare to them.
37 They even sacrificed their sons
And their daughters to demons,
38 And shed innocent blood,
The blood of their sons and daughters,
Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan;
And the land was polluted with blood.
39 Thus they were defiled by their own works,
And played the harlot by their own deeds.

40 Therefore the wrath of the Lord was kindled against His people,
So that He abhorred His own inheritance.
41 And He gave them into the hand of the Gentiles,
And those who hated them ruled over them.
42 Their enemies also oppressed them,
And they were brought into subjection under their hand.
43 Many times He delivered them;
But they rebelled in their counsel,
And were brought low for their iniquity.

44 Nevertheless He regarded their affliction,
When He heard their cry;
45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant,
And relented according to the multitude of His mercies.
46 He also made them to be pitied
By all those who carried them away captive.

47 Save us, O Lord our God,
And gather us from among the Gentiles,
To give thanks to Your holy name,
To triumph in Your praise.

48 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel
From everlasting to everlasting!
And let all the people say, “Amen!”

Praise the Lord!

 

[sdowney717]

Luke 17:33New King James Version (NKJV)
33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What do you do with the fact that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God?

Short of simply denying what the Scripture says, please clarify.

We've already been over this many times before with Scripture.

Anyways, may God bless you.

...

 

[FreeGrace2]

We've already been over this many times before with Scripture.

Yes, we have. And no one from the conditional security side has shown that Rom 11:29 is not a blanket statement about ALL of God's gifts, among which includes eternal life.

Anyways, may God bless you.

 

[Freedom Now]

What do you do with the fact that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God?

Short of simply denying what the Scripture says, please clarify.

If you really want to keep being contentious, then listen to what scriptures say.....

Truth is established on the testimony of two or three witnesses, which Jesus reaffirmed in the

book of John, Paul in one of his letters to the Corinthians, also found in multiple places in Deuteronomy.



If you are trying to establish a doctrine on one single verse in the bible, then you are ignoring the Truth

that states ,...we need the testimony of two or three for it to be Truth.



Until you do that, Truth is not established, no matter how much you want it to be so.



I would heed that Truth if I were you.



May God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, we have. And no one from the conditional security side has shown that Rom 11:29 is not a blanket statement about ALL of God's gifts, among which includes eternal life.

Anyways, may God bless you.

I have adequately explained it in many different ways using Scripture and you keep ignoring it (because you are unwilling to admit you could be wrong). So there is no point in discussing this anymore. Your mind is made up and no explanation will help you because you don't want to see it.

...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"What do you do with the fact that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God?

Short of simply denying what the Scripture says, please clarify."

If you really want to keep being contentious, then listen to what scriptures say.....

Excuse me, but how is my very relevant question being "contentious"? Please explain.

Truth is established on the testimony of two or three witnesses, which Jesus reaffirmed in the book of John, Paul in one of his letters to the Corinthians, also found in multiple places in Deuteronomy.

In order to "listen to what Scriptures say", then please quote actual verses, not just make generalized comments about verses that you might be aware of.

If you are trying to establish a doctrine on one single verse in the bible, then you are ignoring the Truth

Hardly one single verse.

If there is any interest (not sure of at this point), consider these 6 points:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

5 of these 6 points include passages from Scripture.

If none of these passages teach eternal security, then just what do they teach??

that states ,...we need the testimony of two or three for it to be Truth.

I believe 5 passages meets your standard.

Until you do that, Truth is not established, no matter how much you want it to be so.

Did. Now, it's your turn to explain exactly what the 5 passages DO teach, or how they are profitable, since the Bible also says this:

ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness

Or, if not being profitable for teaching, then which specific category does each of the 5 passages fit into?

I would heed that Truth if I were you.

The ball's in your court.

I await an explanation of what the 5 passages above are profitable for, if not teaching eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have adequately explained it in many different ways using Scripture and you keep ignoring it (because you are unwilling to admit you could be wrong).

What has actually been ignored is the FACT that I've refuted your views of all the verses that you quote or cite.

So there is no point in discussing this anymore. Your mind is made up and no explanation will help you because you don't want to see it....

Ditto back at'cha.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What has actually been ignored is the FACT that I've refuted your views of all the verses that you quote or cite.

Ditto back at'cha.

No. You haven't. You simply impressed your belief upon what the text says (When the text does not even remotely say that). You have ignored my points of morality with Scripture (In defense of a "plan to sin again and still be saved" type doctrine) because you do not truly understand what morality truly is. It is a foreign concept to you.

So the only thing I can do is pray for you at this point.

...

 

[Freedom Now]

I asked this:
"What do you do with the fact that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God?

Short of simply denying what the Scripture says, please clarify."

Excuse me, but how is my very relevant question being "contentious"? Please explain.


In order to "listen to what Scriptures say", then please quote actual verses, not just make generalized comments about verses that you might be aware of.


Hardly one single verse.

If there is any interest (not sure of at this point), consider these 6 points:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

5 of these 6 points include passages from Scripture.

If none of these passages teach eternal security, then just what do they teach??


I believe 5 passages meets your standard.


Did. Now, it's your turn to explain exactly what the 5 passages DO teach, or how they are profitable, since the Bible also says this:

ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness

Or, if not being profitable for teaching, then which specific category does each of the 5 passages fit into?


The ball's in your court.

I await an explanation of what the 5 passages above are profitable for, if not teaching eternal security.

Still waiting for the second witness, that states that God's gifts are irrevocable,

which my post was addressed to.


Until you do, there is no sense of addressing your other points, since you

keep bringing up Romans 11, 29 and it seem to be your foundation on which you have

build your theology.