LDS Denominations

[Theway]

Sidney Rigdon wasn't claiming he should be the next in charge, but that they should put a trusteeship in charge of the church till young Joseph became of age. That is what the conference was leaning towards when BY gave his famous speech to sway the saints towards having the Council of 12 put in charge.

What's funny is that BY insisted that the Council of 12 be in charge, and then a few short years later, took over, himself.

The 12 were not "put in charge" by the saints after the death of the President, THEY WERE ALREADY IN CHARGE, as I pointed out.
Nowhere does it state in the Church that Christ set up that it's OK to have a "trusteeship" until someone becomes of age... Besides, as I already pointed out, Joseph Smith III refused the leadship of the RLDS when he did "became of age".

 

[Theway]

Funny how that section you want to base everything on also says that the quorum of 70 was equal in power, too.

What BY "knew" was that he had been preparing JS to give him the reigns of power for a long time, and he was seeing it slip away. Many people knew that he had blessed young Joseph, and when that was the way the conference was moving, he was desperate to get the power back.

No one suggested that Joseph, III, had been ordained. Don't know where you pulled that from. And it's funny that the person doing the illegal acts were the first to accuse those who weren't that they had "apostatized". Actually, it was the group that started believing in things that the restoration never taught until the end that "apostatized" (which means that they changed their beliefs). And that is what happened. Those who accepted those questionable rituals JS started introducing into the church were the ones who went west with BY. IMO, that was how the church was cleansed so it could get back to it's Trinitarian roots.

In order to hold any office in the COJCOLDS one has to be ordained by someone with authority. Everybody knew that, that's why that specific question was asked of him. A father's blessing, Patriarchal blessing, or any blessing at all are contingent upon the person's actions, and the Lord's will. Starting your own church, clearly negated any blessing they were promised. The Lord's Will on secession and leadership in His church had already been made known long before Joseph Smith was murdered. And that was that the keys and authority was with the 12... Not Joseph Smith III

I also find it funny that you are arguing that Joseph Smith jr, made up his own rules about succession in the LDS Church, and then go on to claim that Joseph Smith jr. gave us a successor to the LDS Church.... Doesn't that kinda destroy your own argument?

 

[A New Dawn]

The 12 were not "put in charge" by the saints after the death of the President, THEY WERE ALREADY IN CHARGE, as I pointed out.
Nowhere does it state in the Church that Christ set up that it's OK to have a "trusteeship" until someone becomes of age... Besides, as I already pointed out, Joseph Smith III refused the leadship of the RLDS when he did "became of age".

Please show me a reference for that. The choice was not given to him at the time. It wasn't until he was older that both the LDS in Utah and those who did not go west tried to entice him to their camps.

You didn't point out anything. Your church recently came up with the idea of using that section to support BY's takeover, but it was not even a thought until recently. When it happened, it was not a thought, and as recently as the 1970s it was not a thought. It was a takeover, pure and simple, and then, after it had been handed down to the president of the Council of 12 several times, it was just "tradition". That is what the apostles of your church claimed in one of the lawsuits the RLDS church had against the LDS, either to clear the deed to the Kirtland Temple or to obtain the right to use the LDS name.

 

[A New Dawn]

In order to hold any office in the COJCOLDS one has to be ordained by someone with authority. Everybody knew that, that's why that specific question was asked of him. A father's blessing, Patriarchal blessing, or any blessing at all are contingent upon the person's actions, and the Lord's will. Starting your own church, clearly negated any blessing they were promised. The Lord's Will on secession and leadership in His church had already been made known long before Joseph Smith was murdered. And that was that the keys and authority was with the 12... Not Joseph Smith III

I also find it funny that you are arguing that Joseph Smith jr, made up his own rules about succession in the LDS Church, and then go on to claim that Joseph Smith jr. gave us a successor to the LDS Church.... Doesn't that kinda destroy your own argument?

I am not claiming that JS made up his own rules about succession, it was stated clearly in one of the earlier sections, that the only way the church would know who would receive revelation for the church would be whom God chooses and assigns through the living prophet. Remember that section? According to that "revelation", JS did what he said God told him to do. It is in one of those links I posted above, if you really care to find out.

 

[Theway]

Please show me a reference for that. The choice was not given to him at the time. It wasn't until he was older that both the LDS in Utah and those who did not go west tried to entice him to their camps.

You didn't point out anything. Your church recently came up with the idea of using that section to support BY's takeover, but it was not even a thought until recently. When it happened, it was not a thought, and as recently as the 1970s it was not a thought. It was a takeover, pure and simple, and then, after it had been handed down to the president of the Council of 12 several times, it was just "tradition". That is what the apostles of your church claimed in one of the lawsuits the RLDS church had against the LDS, either to clear the deed to the Kirtland Temple or to obtain the right to use the LDS name.

Hardly a new concept that the LDS Church "just recently came up with".

8/8/1844 Brigham Young stated “If the people want President Rigdon to lead them they may have him; but I say unto you that the Quorum of the Twelve have the keys of the kingdom of God in all the world” (History of the Church, 7:233). On that day the Church members then unanimously "sustained" (but did not vote for as they were already in charge of the Church) the 12 as being the successors.

 

[Theway]

I am not claiming that JS made up his own rules about succession, it was stated clearly in one of the earlier sections, that the only way the church would know who would receive revelation for the church would be whom God chooses and assigns through the living prophet. Remember that section? According to that "revelation", JS did what he said God told him to do. It is in one of those links I posted above, if you really care to find out.

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing your point?

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing your point?

You stated

I also find it funny that you are arguing that Joseph Smith jr, made up his own rules about succession in the LDS Church, and then go on to claim that Joseph Smith jr. gave us a successor to the LDS Church.... Doesn't that kinda destroy your own argument?

To which I replied

I am not claiming that JS made up his own rules about succession, it was stated clearly in one of the earlier sections, that the only way the church would know who would receive revelation for the church would be whom God chooses and assigns through the living prophet. Remember that section? According to that "revelation", JS did what he said God told him to do. It is in one of those links I posted above, if you really care to find out.

They were "God's rules about succession". Joseph Smith clearly did what he believed God told him to do regarding how to designate the next prophet of the church.

 

[fatboys]

Funny how that section you want to base everything on also says that the quorum of 70 was equal in power, too.

What BY "knew" was that he had been preparing JS to give him the reigns of power for a long time, and he was seeing it slip away. Many people knew that he had blessed young Joseph, and when that was the way the conference was moving, he was desperate to get the power back.

No one suggested that Joseph, III, had been ordained. Don't know where you pulled that from. And it's funny that the person doing the illegal acts were the first to accuse those who weren't that they had "apostatized". Actually, it was the group that started believing in things that the restoration never taught until the end that "apostatized" (which means that they changed their beliefs). And that is what happened. Those who accepted those questionable rituals JS started introducing into the church were the ones who went west with BY. IMO, that was how the church was cleansed so it could get back to it's Trinitarian roots.

If JosephSmith III had remained in the church then he would have had the right to be president when his time came up after he had been called as a apostle. It did not mean that he was to take the position before then. That was what all the blessings meant. They were mortals with weakness and had to be refined as did Joseph Smith Jr.

 

[A New Dawn]

If JosephSmith III had remained in the church then he would have had the right to be president when his time came up after he had been called as a apostle. It did not mean that he was to take the position before then. That was what all the blessings meant. They were mortals with weakness and had to be refined as did Joseph Smith Jr.

Joseph Smith Jr. was an apostle when the church was organized?

 

[Theway]

You stated

To which I replied

They were "God's rules about succession". Joseph Smith clearly did what he believed God told him to do regarding how to designate the next prophet of the church.

And??? That changes nothing of what I had said.
A blessing can be true if at the time it was given their hearts are right before God... However, if they fall away or sined to a degree known only to God, then they have no more entitlement to any blessing. See example of James Covel in D&C 39:7-8 and also D&C 40.
Joseph Smith III was given a blessing... And even if that blessing was by revelation it is still dependent on the person remaining worthy to recieve it. This should be nothing new for you, the Bible is replete with such blessings left unfulfilled because of the actions of the individual or the nation.

 

[A New Dawn]

And??? That changes nothing of what I had said.
A blessing can be true if at the time it was given their hearts are right before God... However, if they fall away or sined to a degree known only to God, then they have no more entitlement to any blessing. See example of James Covel in D&C 39:7-8 and also D&C 40.
Joseph Smith III was given a blessing... And even if that blessing was by revelation it is still dependent on the person remaining worthy to recieve it. This should be nothing new for you, the Bible is replete with such blessings left unfulfilled because of the actions of the individual or the nation.

It changes everything you said! Brigham Young swayed the church away from going the route of holding the church in trusteeship for JS,III, to having the Council of 12 put in charge so that he could ultimately take over.

 

[Theway]

It changes everything you said! Brigham Young swayed the church away from going the route of holding the church in trusteeship for JS,III, to having the Council of 12 put in charge so that he could ultimately take over.

Only in your wishful thinking.
Brigham Young did not need to sway anybody as he already had all the "keys and authority" to the Church(save the obvious joke here).
In fact, Brigham Young did not really want the leadership and stated that he could care less if the Church choose Sidney and followed him, but that the keys already rested with the 12 and they were the ones who had to relinquish them first.

 

[drstevej]

hook, line and sinker.

 

[fatboys]

hook, line and sinker.

Haha ha

 

[smaneck]

Joseph Smith III was given a blessing... And even if that blessing was by revelation it is still dependent on the person remaining worthy to recieve it. This should be nothing new for you, the Bible is replete with such blessings left unfulfilled because of the actions of the individual or the nation.

And what did Joseph Smith III do to make him unworthy? And how do we know this made him unworthy?

 

[drstevej]

We know that doing the hibbidy-dibbity with teen age girls doesn't disqualify you in Mormondom.

 

[smaneck]

We know that doing the hibbidy-dibbity with teen age girls doesn't disqualify you in Mormondom.

Apparently it doesn't in evangelical Christianity either.

http://www.people.com/article/inside-josh-duggar-treatment-

 

[drstevej]

Their show was cancelled, Joe kept on and Mormons sing Praise to the Man.

 

[smaneck]

Their show was cancelled, Joe kept on and Mormons sing Praise to the Man.

Not by evangelicals.

 

[Theway]

And what did Joseph Smith III do to make him unworthy? And how do we know this made him unworthy?

I thought that was self evident... He rejected the true Church for an apostate one.