LDS Denominations

RDKatz

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The problem is not in calling it a split, the problem comes when trying to determine which is the true church, and which is the apostate spin-off.
The RCC and the LDS both claim unbroken authority. Which means that even if all doctrine was exactly the same, unless you were called of God and ordained and set apart by someone else in authority, then you have apostized from the true church.
In the case of Protestants they solved this by saying everyone has authority unto themselves.... which waters down authority to the point of making it meaningless.
The RLDS on the other hand claimed that Joseph Smith gave authority to his young son in a rumored father's blessing. However that still leaves a gap in authority for them from the time of Joseph Smith jr. death until Joseph Smith III finally relented and took over the RLDS. The other problem they have is that no where does it say that what they claim happened is the way authority is passed on to another. this creates an untenable position for them, as they can not claim to follow the doctrine as revealed to Joseph Smith jr. While at the same time they discard doctrine about authority and succession in order the make Joseph Smith III the leader of the Church.
In fact the their very name "Reorganised Latter Day Saints" admits to their paradox.

I have asked this question before and generally get one of two answers: "My Church is the only True Church" or "All Churches are equally true". Both answers are unsatisfactory. The first is a statement of belief. For another to accept it requires either belief or proof. For the other All Churches teach different things and if they are all equally true then they are both equally false.

It is my understanding that RLDS did not exist until Joseph Smith III became old enough and many splinters rallied under him.

The RLDS (CoC) claim authority from the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. intending III to be his successor (from a letter, blessing, etc). The LDS claim authority from the Quorum of the 12 who have Authority as a group equal from the Prophet. Who is right is up to God to answer.
 
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A New Dawn

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I don't recall saying anything about Nauvoo???
But I find it funny that after all my comments this is all you walk away with.

The 1831 date was the date that the order of succession, authority, and the passing of the keys of leadership in the Mormon Church were revealed. Which puts you, and those who believe that Joseph Smith III had a right to take over the Mormon Church in a paradox.... You can not come up with a good reason for denouncing the way it was done, without distroying your own argument for Joseph Smith III at the same time.
None of it is true, but supposing it were, the section that tells one how the next prophet of the church will be recognized trumps the section saying that the 12 apostles is equal in authority to the first presidency. If the first presidency has the keys of the kingdom, then Sidney Rigdon should have been next in line, since he was in the first presidency. That knocks your whole theory out of the ball park, however, the method God supposedly chose should have been the method that was used. That being the current prophet (JS,Jr.) designates the next prophet (in this case, JS,III, was designated.)
 
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I find the bolded part above to be confusing - if "the majority" was separated from "the rest" then "the majority" and "the rest" did split from each other. So how can the claim that "the LDS did not split off from the RLDS nor did the RLDS split off from the LDS" be true? They did split from each other, at some point.

I'm curious also as to why the split is something that many mormons want to portray as not having happened???
It wasn't just a split, the church fractured. There were at least 16 different groups that started after JS,Jr. was killed.

The LDS claim it didn't happen so that they can say that they remain undivided, an evidence for being the "true church". They claim that all the others just apostatized and left, that the church didn't splinter, but it did. Big time.
 
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RDKatz

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None of it is true, but supposing it were, the section that tells one how the next prophet of the church will be recognized trumps the section saying that the 12 apostles is equal in authority to the first presidency. If the first presidency has the keys of the kingdom, then Sidney Rigdon should have been next in line, since he was in the first presidency. That knocks your whole theory out of the ball park, however, the method God supposedly chose should have been the method that was used. That being the current prophet (JS,Jr.) designates the next prophet (in this case, JS,III, was designated.)

The Prophet holds the keys, not the Presidency. The Counselors are just that, Counselors. Sidney Rigdon was a Counselor, not the Prophet.
 
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A few small additions....
First, when Brigham Young spoke he simply reminded those there that the keys to the leadership in the church already existed with the 12. Brigham by himself could do nothing so they had to wait IIRC three years before the rest of the Quorum could get together and appoint a new President of Church.
Second, when the President/Prophet is dead or removed, the Presidency is disolved, and the Counselors no longer have any authority.... So Sidney's claim was only wishful thinking anyway.
Third, you say the "vote was taken" as though it was a majority takes all vote. It was a confirmation vote, which merely affirms that you are willing to follow the Prophet in authority, it was not a vote to decide who will be the next President.

But actually, there was a vote taken. And the issue wasn't as clear as you like to make it seem. There were many who believed that Rigdon had the better claim. And BY didn't just "[remind] those there that the keys to the leadership in the church already existed with the 12", he went in and thoroughly denigrated Rigdon, whom the saints were leaning toward. Rigdon was scheduled to talk, and BY went in and interrupted him and came out and said that he thought Rigdon was too old and feeble to lead the church. PLEASE GO READ SOME AUTHENTIC HISTORY!
 
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I have asked this question before and generally get one of two answers: "My Church is the only True Church" or "All Churches are equally true". Both answers are unsatisfactory. The first is a statement of belief. For another to accept it requires either belief or proof. For the other All Churches teach different things and if they are all equally true then they are both equally false.

It is my understanding that RLDS did not exist until Joseph Smith III became old enough and many splinters rallied under him.

The RLDS (CoC) claim authority from the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. intending III to be his successor (from a letter, blessing, etc). The LDS claim authority from the Quorum of the 12 who have Authority as a group equal from the Prophet. Who is right is up to God to answer.
There were two groups that remained in the midwest that united when JS,III, agreed to take the leadership.
 
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The Prophet holds the keys, not the Presidency. The Counselors are just that, Counselors. Sidney Rigdon was a Counselor, not the Prophet.
It doesn't really matter because there were no "keys to the kingdom". I just hate it when people can't be bothered enough to read actual history and rely on the whitewashed church history version.
 
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RDKatz

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It doesn't really matter because there were no "keys to the kingdom". I just hate it when people can't be bothered enough to read actual history and rely on the whitewashed church history version.

I disagree. There were and are Keys of the Kingdom that are help by those with the proper authority. As far as history goes, I have yet to find actual unbiased history. I remember looking my my daughter's American History book to learn that the Prophet Joseph Smith was hanged. I pointed this out to the teacher as an obvious mistake who glossed it over.

All history is biased, especially when it comes to religion.
 
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Theway

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None of it is true, but supposing it were, the section that tells one how the next prophet of the church will be recognized trumps the section saying that the 12 apostles is equal in authority to the first presidency. If the first presidency has the keys of the kingdom, then Sidney Rigdon should have been next in line, since he was in the first presidency. That knocks your whole theory out of the ball park, however, the method God supposedly chose should have been the method that was used. That being the current prophet (JS,Jr.) designates the next prophet (in this case, JS,III, was designated.)
Maybe instead of tauting RLDS propaganda, you should take your own advice and read some real history. Only the Prophet who is also the President holds the keys to the leadership and authority of the Church. His Counselors can only act under the direction of the President but can not initiate anything on their own. Once the President was dead, the Counselors have no one to recieve direction from, and hold no keys; the Presidency is therefore disolved, and the Counselors go back to what they were before.
The Quorum of the Twelve are equal in authority with the Presidency, as are the First Quorum of the Seventy, except only the President holds the one key neccessary to the leadership of the Church and is the only person to recieve revelation pertaining to its leadership and doctrine. When the Presidency is disolved, that key goes to the 12. If the President and the 12 are disolved, then it goes to the First Quorum if the Seventy. There is no special ordinance needed as it is all automatic. The only difference between the President and the Quorums, is that the Quorums hold the keys together, and must act together as one, they can not act individually. That is why they had to wait until they all could get back together.
Anything outside of that order of succession which had already been revealed by Joseph Smith jr. was simply a bid to go outside of the doctrine of the Church to usurp power unrightously.
Joseph Smith III only had a rumored blessing, a blessing has no power of itself, you need the ordinance confered upon you by someone who does have the authority; Joseph Smith III admitted in a court of law that that ordinance never happened.
But even then, Joseph Smith was too young to hold the Priesthood neccessary to hold leadership and the keys.
Yet even then, that blessing was forfeited when he went outside the Priesthood of the Church and took leadership of another Church.
Not to mention the fact, when it was finally offered to him, he refused.
Their claim further that the President will be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith now ends their church as there are no more direct descendents left to take over.
That said, there is nothing in any of the scriptures that both Churches can agree on which supports their sequence of events in the RLDS.
The final irony is, that they believe in the restoration, and that the authority and Priesthood will remain unbroken until Christ comes again.... That makes them a false religion based on their own beliefs, as the Church they set up no longer even exists.
 
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RDKatz

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No, I don't think so. I believe there were a lot more groups than just two although their range may be greater than the Midwest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement
I don't think you read my post(s). I stated up front that there were at least 16 factions that came into being when JS,Jr., was killed. I went on to say that two of those factions came together when JS,III, agreed to lead the church. They had nothing to do with most of the other factions. I do believe that after the church was reorganized, there were a few other factions that joined in with them.
 
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Maybe instead of tauting RLDS propaganda, you should take your own advice and read some real history. Only the Prophet who is also the President holds the keys to the leadership and authority of the Church. His Counselors can only act under the direction of the President but can not initiate anything on their own. Once the President was dead, the Counselors have no one to recieve direction from, and hold no keys; the Presidency is therefore disolved, and the Counselors go back to what they were before.
The Quorum of the Twelve are equal in authority with the Presidency, as are the First Quorum of the Seventy, except only the President holds the one key neccessary to the leadership of the Church and is the only person to recieve revelation pertaining to its leadership and doctrine. When the Presidency is disolved, that key goes to the 12. If the President and the 12 are disolved, then it goes to the First Quorum if the Seventy. There is no special ordinance needed as it is all automatic. The only difference between the President and the Quorums, is that the Quorums hold the keys together, and must act together as one, they can not act individually. That is why they had to wait until they all could get back together.
Anything outside of that order of succession which had already been revealed by Joseph Smith jr. was simply a bid to go outside of the doctrine of the Church to usurp power unrightously.
Joseph Smith III only had a rumored blessing, a blessing has no power of itself, you need the ordinance confered upon you by someone who does have the authority; Joseph Smith III admitted in a court of law that that ordinance never happened.
But even then, Joseph Smith was too young to hold the Priesthood neccessary to hold leadership and the keys.
Yet even then, that blessing was forfeited when he went outside the Priesthood of the Church and took leadership of another Church.
Not to mention the fact, when it was finally offered to him, he refused.
Their claim further that the President will be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith now ends their church as there are no more direct descendents left to take over.
That said, there is nothing in any of the scriptures that both Churches can agree on which supports their sequence of events in the RLDS.
The final irony is, that they believe in the restoration, and that the authority and Priesthood will remain unbroken until Christ comes again.... That makes them a false religion based on their own beliefs, as the Church they set up no longer even exists.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, that doesn't make it right. If the restoration had any truth in it, it was not what was added at the end, but what it believed in the beginning. Heretical beliefs that contradict the Bible are not truth, and BY taking the heretical believers west was God's attempt to rid the church of heresy. Luckily, the ones who reorganized the church knew what heresy looked like and strove to eliminate it from the reorganization so it became Trinitarian, once again. There is always hope when at least they acknowledge the truth about who God is.
 
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Theway

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You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, that doesn't make it right. If the restoration had any truth in it, it was not what was added at the end, but what it believed in the beginning. Heretical beliefs that contradict the Bible are not truth, and BY taking the heretical believers west was God's attempt to rid the church of heresy. Luckily, the ones who reorganized the church knew what heresy looked like and strove to eliminate it from the reorganization so it became Trinitarian, once again. There is always hope when at least they acknowledge the truth about who God is.
Once again... I find it a contradiction for you as you have said you believe both religions to be false, and yet you said God had a hand in the RLDS beginnings????
Believe what you want, but at least I have choosen a side.
But, in order for you to be consistant with your newest beliefs, I think you should remember the following scripture as it works either way...... 2 Peter 2:21-22
 
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