LDS Denominations

[Edial]

To foreknow, is not the same as to foreordain.

That is correct. But in the end it is the same thing.
God foreordained exact amount of individuals than the amount he foreknew would choose to follow Satan.
He still created them in any case.

Our problem is not Arminianism vs Calvinism debate (although we debate it for centuries), but our incorrect understanding of Hades/Sheol and insistence that people released from these places for the Judgment Day can no longer be saved since they came from the Hades.

Oh, theology is a jungle ...

 

[smaneck]

Our problem is not Arminianism vs Calvinism debate (although we debate it for centuries), but our incorrect understanding of Hades/Sheol and insistence that people released from these places for the Judgment Day can no longer be saved since they came from the Hades.

Oh, theology is a jungle ...

I tend to agree with you there, but there is also that annoying garbage place outside of Jerusalem, otherwise known as Gehenna.

 

[Edial]

I tend to agree with you there, but there is also that annoying garbage place outside of Jerusalem, otherwise known as Gehenna.

Yes, very annoying.
Gehenna is presented as a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, the weeping and gnashing is not due to mind numbing pain, but due to envy of seeing us in Heaven at the banquet and them outside ...
Luke 13:28New International Version (NIV)
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

So, in itself, the Burning Lake is an environment that Satan, Beast #1, Beast #2, harlot of Babylon are the leaders of. Uncomfortable, but home away from God nonetheless.
Their followers would be relocated to that world and they would exist there ...

 

[smaneck]

Yes, very annoying.
Gehenna is presented as a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, the weeping and gnashing is not due to mind numbing pain, but due to envy of seeing us in Heaven at the banquet and them outside ...
Luke 13:28New International Version (NIV)
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

So, in itself, the Burning Lake is an environment that Satan, Beast #1, Beast #2, harlot of Babylon are the leaders of. Uncomfortable, but home away from God nonetheless.
Their followers would be relocated to that world and they would exist there ...

But he also describes it as the place where the worm never dies and the fire always burns. Because of the build up of compost garbage in Gehenna there would be spontaneous combustions all over the place. And of course, there were all these maggots which were probably thought to be impervious to fire.

 

[Edial]

But he also describes it as the place where the worm never dies and the fire always burns. Because of the build up of compost garbage in Gehenna there would be spontaneous combustions all over the place. And of course, there were all these maggots which were probably thought to be impervious to fire.

Yes, of course. It is NOT a nice place to be. Living conditions would be horrible.
So are the conditions in Turkish prisons ... not quite, but you know what I mean.
Yet, at least in the U.S. some criminals, like gang members do not mind going back to prison because it is THEIR world. They are in their element.
Yes, the worm "never dies" there and they would choose to manage that inconvenience.

 

[Ironhold]

Okay, I have a bone to pick with your religion over that. If prohibiting polygamy was unconstitutional (and I agree it may have been) then why does the Church think it okay to try and legally prohibit gay marriages? And to do it in the name of 'traditional marriage'?

I'll have to go back and find the quotes, but the church was mentioned by name during the debates. This, coupled with the fact that the bills specifically sought out and punished the church by name, meant that the anti-polygamy laws were written and passed in direct defiance of the First Amendment.

 

[smaneck]

I'll have to go back and find the quotes, but the church was mentioned by name during the debates. This, coupled with the fact that the bills specifically sought out and punished the church by name, meant that the anti-polygamy laws were written and passed in direct defiance of the First Amendment.

It had to be. It was a Mormon who brought the case before the Supreme Court. But that doesn't address the issue of the Church pouring millions of dollars into passing Proposition 8 in California opposing gay marriage in the name of traditional marriage. It is not like Mormon marriage practices had been all that traditional. Why deny to others what you feel was wrongfully denied to you. It just so happens that if the Supreme Court decides to recognize gay marriage this summer it may very well open the door for Mormons to legally resume the practice of polygamy.

 

[Ironhold]

It had to be. It was a Mormon who brought the case before the Supreme Court.

Actually, the SCOTUS case was a challenge to those laws.

But that doesn't address the issue of the Church pouring millions of dollars into passing Proposition 8 in California opposing gay marriage in the name of traditional marriage. It is not like Mormon marriage practices had been all that traditional.

The church reserves the right to get involved in political issues if those issues touch upon the church's teachings.

As it is, the whole "Mormon money swept the vote" bit the "No" crowd put forth back then was always a load of hoopla. As the LA Times clearly shows, not only did the "No" crowd have $6m more in total donations than the "Yes" crowd, they raised $2m more from outside the state as well.

 

[smaneck]

Actually, the SCOTUS case was a challenge to those laws.

But it was that Supreme Court decision which upheld those laws.

The church reserves the right to get involved in political issues if those issues touch upon the church's teachings.

My point is isn't it hypocritical to want your own form of non-traditional marriage but deny it to others?

And like I said it will be the current SCOTUS case on homosexual marriage which will likely open the door for your own form of marriage once again. But that's only if the gays win.

 

[A New Dawn]

No, that's not how it happened.

There wasn't a clear successor when Joseph Smith was killed, and so those who claimed to be next in line each publicly made their case.

When Brigham Young won the favor of the majority of the church members, those who followed the other claimants split off.

There was a clear successor named. Joseph Smith, Jr. designated his son, Joseph Smith, III, on three separate occasions, and everyone knew about it, including Brigham Young, who made several references to it before he went west.

 

[smaneck]

There was a clear successor named. Joseph Smith, Jr. designated his son, Joseph Smith, III, on three separate occasions, and everyone knew about it, including Brigham Young, who made several references to it before he went west.

Evidence?

 

[A New Dawn]

Evidence?

Googling it would answer your question.

 

[smaneck]

Googling it would answer your question.

I would expect the person who makes the assertion would be prepared to provide evidence.

 

[A New Dawn]

I would expect the person who makes the assertion would be prepared to provide evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_III
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~jptandy/rlds/js3.htm

 

[fatboys]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_III
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~jptandy/rlds/js3.htm

Joesph Smith III was twelve years old when his father was murdered William smith came to Emma and said that her son is to be the next president of the church. Emma said no way. He can decide when he is old enough when he is eighteen. So when he turned eighteen they came to him and refused them. They continued to try to convince him that he was the man. Finally when he was 26 he accepted. It s funny that this succession claim was given to Sydny Rigdon and James A Strang.

 

[A New Dawn]

Joesph Smith III was twelve years old when his father was murdered William smith came to Emma and said that her son is to be the next president of the church. Emma said no way. He can decide when he is old enough when he is eighteen. So when he turned eighteen they came to him and refused them. They continued to try to convince him that he was the man. Finally when he was 26 he accepted. It s funny that this succession claim was given to Sydny Rigdon and James A Strang.

What's funny about it?

 

[fatboys]

What's funny about it?

That there were others who claimed that had proof of a blessing given to them by Joseph Smith that said they would be the next one in charge.

 

[Theway]

There was a clear successor named. Joseph Smith, Jr. designated his son, Joseph Smith, III, on three separate occasions, and everyone knew about it, including Brigham Young, who made several references to it before he went west.

Actually, the only clear successor was Hyrum Smith as he was already co-president. Had Hyrum Smith survived he would simply had remained as President. After that, the next clear leadership existed is the Quorum of the Twelve, who were equal in authority to the President and his Counselors. At the dissolution of the first Presidency the Quorum of the Twelve hold the keys to the Leardership. After that it is the First Quourm of the Seventy. D&C 107:24, 26.
This was the only thing that Brigham Young "knew" and was exactly what he pointed out to the church after Joseph Smith's death. Joseph Smith III and the rest who were blessed to be the successor to Joseph Smith jr.(there were at least 8) didn't even have a horse in the race. A blessing like the one that Joseph Smith III and others had, were conditional upon remaining righteous enough to recieve it, and the Will of the Lord. A father's blessing is not an ordination. Even Joseph Smith III had to admit in a court of law that he had not been ordained to take over the church by his father. Also, seeing as though they (JS III and others) apostizied, I think that goes without saying that they no longer were worthy of that office. Besides, Joseph Smith III refused to take over the apostate RLDS for many years anyway.
All the wishful thinking by a church that doesn't even exist anymore (RLDS), will not change that.

 

[A New Dawn]

That there were others who claimed that had proof of a blessing given to them by Joseph Smith that said they would be the next one in charge.

Sidney Rigdon wasn't claiming he should be the next in charge, but that they should put a trusteeship in charge of the church till young Joseph became of age. That is what the conference was leaning towards when BY gave his famous speech to sway the saints towards having the Council of 12 put in charge.

What's funny is that BY insisted that the Council of 12 be in charge, and then a few short years later, took over, himself.

 

[A New Dawn]

Actually, the only clear successor was Hyrum Smith as he was already co-president. Had Hyrum Smith survived he would simply had remained as President. After that, the next clear leadership existed is the Quorum of the Twelve, who were equal in authority to the President and his Counselors. At the dissolution of the first Presidency the Quorum of the Twelve hold the keys to the Leardership. After that it is the First Quourm of the Seventy. D&C 107:24, 26.
This was the only thing that Brigham Young "knew" and was exactly what he pointed out to the church after Joseph Smith's death. Joseph Smith III and the rest who were blessed to be the successor to Joseph Smith jr.(there were at least 8) didn't even have a horse in the race. A blessing like the one that Joseph Smith III and others had, were conditional upon remaining righteous enough to recieve it, and the Will of the Lord. A father's blessing is not an ordination. Even Joseph Smith III had to admit in a court of law that he had not been ordained to take over the church by his father. Also, seeing as though they (JS III and others) apostizied, I think that goes without saying that they no longer were worthy of that office. Besides, Joseph Smith III refused to take over the apostate RLDS for many years anyway.
All the wishful thinking by a church that doesn't even exist anymore (RLDS), will not change that.

Funny how that section you want to base everything on also says that the quorum of 70 was equal in power, too.

What BY "knew" was that he had been preparing JS to give him the reigns of power for a long time, and he was seeing it slip away. Many people knew that he had blessed young Joseph, and when that was the way the conference was moving, he was desperate to get the power back.

No one suggested that Joseph, III, had been ordained. Don't know where you pulled that from. And it's funny that the person doing the illegal acts were the first to accuse those who weren't that they had "apostatized". Actually, it was the group that started believing in things that the restoration never taught until the end that "apostatized" (which means that they changed their beliefs). And that is what happened. Those who accepted those questionable rituals JS started introducing into the church were the ones who went west with BY. IMO, that was how the church was cleansed so it could get back to it's Trinitarian roots.