Michael Scaman
Active Member
I would be mighty concerned over verses denying Jesus as Son of God on a Cathedral and it called the leadership into question. Church is taken from a word for Lord. Is Jesus Lord or not?
Upvote
0
Koran verses read denying Jesus Son of God in Cathedral
- Thread starter Original Happy Camper
- Start date
From St Mary's web page:
There’s currently a bit of a fuss going on in London because a vicar invited a group to have Muslim prayers inside his church.
This is a fuss blown out of all proportion. What the Rev Giles Goddard, the vicar of St John’s Waterloo has done is unremarkable and the trouble seems to be coming from those who are also troubled by his offering to affirm gay couples, as much as anything to do with the Muslims.
It seems important to state that I’ve offered Muslims the opportunity to hold worship in St Mary’s.
A couple of years ago one of the local mosques was being refurbished and they needed somewhere to meet for Friday prayers for six weeks. A group from the mosque committee came to me to ask whether there was any possibility of them using St Mary’s Cathedral.
I met with them and did indeed offer our space to them.
In the end, they didn’t take up the offer as they were worried that we didn’t have enough floorspace for them. (Not the first time I’ve cursed the immovable pews).
The things worth noting here are these:
It is worth noting in passing that the Islamic group that Giles Goddard invited into St John’s was unusual in that it welcomes men and women to pray together – something a lot of good Anglicans might be inclined to say was a good idea.
And another thing. I’ve heard on the grapevine that a mixed group of young people, Muslim and Christian was present in Liverpool Cathedral one year on Ash Wednesday when Justin Welby was the Dean. To some surprise, the Muslim young people came forward to receive the ashes on their foreheads along with everyone else.
I believe that the quick thinking Dean (now the Archbishop of Canterbury) said something like: “May the God of Abraham which is both my God and yours bless you and keep you safe this day” and firmly put the ash on all their heads. Such things are the everyday stuff of ministry. Entirely uncontroversial and a delight and a parable of the way things should be, to all involved.
Anyone wanting to throw stones at Giles Goddard over this might find that they bounce off and hit the Archbishop of Canterbury instead.
And those who want to stir up trouble between faiths, motivated by latent homophobia, should look deep into their souls before they next try to look the God of love in the eye.
*******
I'm going to go out of my way to work towards getting a translation for you all---because I can assure you, it was never sung that Jesus is not to be worshiped. This OP is an untruth.
There’s currently a bit of a fuss going on in London because a vicar invited a group to have Muslim prayers inside his church.
This is a fuss blown out of all proportion. What the Rev Giles Goddard, the vicar of St John’s Waterloo has done is unremarkable and the trouble seems to be coming from those who are also troubled by his offering to affirm gay couples, as much as anything to do with the Muslims.
It seems important to state that I’ve offered Muslims the opportunity to hold worship in St Mary’s.
A couple of years ago one of the local mosques was being refurbished and they needed somewhere to meet for Friday prayers for six weeks. A group from the mosque committee came to me to ask whether there was any possibility of them using St Mary’s Cathedral.
I met with them and did indeed offer our space to them.
In the end, they didn’t take up the offer as they were worried that we didn’t have enough floorspace for them. (Not the first time I’ve cursed the immovable pews).
The things worth noting here are these:
- Every Christian I spoke to about this wanted it to go ahead as part of the basic hospitality that we think is part of our faith.
- Every Muslim I spoke to at the time spoke to me about precedents from history when Christians had been offered sanctuary in mosques and protection from Muslim communities whilst they worshipped there.
- There was never controversy over this at all.
It is worth noting in passing that the Islamic group that Giles Goddard invited into St John’s was unusual in that it welcomes men and women to pray together – something a lot of good Anglicans might be inclined to say was a good idea.
And another thing. I’ve heard on the grapevine that a mixed group of young people, Muslim and Christian was present in Liverpool Cathedral one year on Ash Wednesday when Justin Welby was the Dean. To some surprise, the Muslim young people came forward to receive the ashes on their foreheads along with everyone else.
I believe that the quick thinking Dean (now the Archbishop of Canterbury) said something like: “May the God of Abraham which is both my God and yours bless you and keep you safe this day” and firmly put the ash on all their heads. Such things are the everyday stuff of ministry. Entirely uncontroversial and a delight and a parable of the way things should be, to all involved.
Anyone wanting to throw stones at Giles Goddard over this might find that they bounce off and hit the Archbishop of Canterbury instead.
And those who want to stir up trouble between faiths, motivated by latent homophobia, should look deep into their souls before they next try to look the God of love in the eye.
*******
I'm going to go out of my way to work towards getting a translation for you all---because I can assure you, it was never sung that Jesus is not to be worshiped. This OP is an untruth.
Upvote
0
the original op has this statement in it;
"She then concludes by singing verse 35, which states in translation: “It befitteth not the Majesty of Allah that He should take unto Himself a son,” and then verse 36, which has the infant Jesus saying: “And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. That is the right path.”
Looks like it was already translated.
Upvote
0
The God of Abraham has a son called Jesus. The God of Muslim faith does not "It befitteth not the Majesty of Allah that He should take unto Himself a son" so how can this religious leader make such a misleading statement.
Upvote
0
I've asked for a translation (and am waiting on a response). During the service the translation was recited after the prayer (but that's not online yet).
The thing is.....I doubt you know Arabic (correct?)....so you also cannot support that the article in the OP is true (thus...it's nothing more than malicious gossip used to divide and stir up strife....something that our Bible *does* most certainly instruct us to avoid doing).
Upvote
0
....and you can't support that unless you speak/understand Arabic.
While this isn't specifically from the service in Glasgow...this is a typical Muslim reading related to the annunciation of Jesus:
...the faithful come to the mosque and take off their shoes so that they may enter the house of worship in bare feet... "When he came to the Fire, a voice was uttered: O Moses! I am thy Lord, therefore put off thy shoes, for thou art in the sacred valley of Tuwa."-(HOLY QURAN 20:11-12).
(And God said to Moses), "Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."-(EXODUS 3:5, also ACTS 7:33).
...but before entering the mosque, they make ablution, washing their faces, hands and feet... "O you who believe! When you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles."-(HOLY QURAN 5:7)
"And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat; when they went into tent of the congregation they washed as the Lord commanded Moses."-(EXODUS 40:31-32).
"Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple..."-(ACTS 21:26).
"I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them."-(THE FIRST COMMANDMENT, EXODUS 20:2-5).
And, behold, one came and said unto him (Jesus), "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but One, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the Commandments.-(MATTHEW 19:16-17).
"O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do good that you may prosper."-(HOLY QURAN 22:77).
"And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..."-(MATTHEW 26:39).
And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that Thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that Thou hast sent me.-(JOHN 11:41-42).
BIRTH OF JESUS (A QURANIC CONCEPTION) Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, "That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us: It is a matter (so) decreed."
So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place...
At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! Truly an amazing thing has thou brought!
"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
He (the babe) said: "I am indeed a servant of God; He hath given me Revelation and made me a prophet: And he hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; so Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again).
Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.-(HOLY QURAN 19:16-34).
*********
The diversion of beliefs is only in the speaking babe.....but how is that a problem? Maybe the message was relayed in Spirit? The point I see in that is that Joseph and Mary were then perceived as not having relations out of wedlock (as they would have been accused)....and the holy virginal miracle was accepted and believed.
As far as the "made me a prophet" part? Isn't a "prophet" one that's an "inspired teacher"? Wasn't He (although we believe He was more than that....that doesn't make it a false statement or one--IMO--that can be disputed)?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
....and you believe everything on the internet? It's gossip when we haven't verified something.
Upvote
0
You dismiss the translation that is in the OP and you do not speak/understand Arabic. by your own statement "waiting for translation"
So...... what makes the OP a lie?
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Consider what the point/motive would be. Then ask yourself if it would be reasonable for a priest to extend their hands and permit the "translated" words you shared to be spoken at a celebration of Epiphany. It's better not to repeat things until you know they're true (especially when they harm others).
We have a biblical example of Jesus traveling through Samaria and speaking with a woman alone (when that was culturally controversial)....I see this gesture as much of the same thing. If you take the time to look at Twitter....the only people that oppose it are other Christians. There are loads of favorable comments from Athiests and others that have lost hope in the church (and have come to believe that being a Christian means one is judgmental and divisive---their words, not mine). Also....you read about how moved the young man from the Iranian community in Glasgow was, and came forward for ashes on Ash Wednesday. Gestures like this move people where words fail.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
What I'm justifying is extending our hands to other faiths (like St Mary's has with those in both the Jewish community and the Muslim community...and vice versa) in order to demonstrate love and celebration for what we *do* agree on.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
This is directly from the gal that sang (the translation of what she sang):
thank you for getting this Information. I have to wonder where the original information came from. I will do some digging.
That said the main issue here is that the Muslim faith is anti-Christ (not the anti-christ) and the leaders of that church should never have allowed the spoken word of a faith that is anti-Christ to be spoken in the house of God. Unless they do not believe that the church is the temple of GOD.
That is my main point.
Upvote
0
This is directly from the gal that sang (the translation of what she sang):
Clergyman defends St Mary’s Cathedral Koran reading
JANUARY 12, 2017
The senior clergyman at a cathedral in Glasgow has defended a service at which passages from the Koran were read from the lectern. St Mary’s Episcopal Cathedral has been criticised because the verses contradict Christian teaching about Jesus. The service was held on the feast of the Epiphany when western Christians mark the visit to the infant Jesus by wise men. The cathedral provost said the reading was aimed at promoting understanding between the two faiths. St Mary’s invited local Muslims, who also revere Jesus as a prophet, to join the service. A student, Madinah Javed, read from the lectern in Arabic from the chapter of Maryam, or Mary. The chapter tells the story of the birth of Christ to the virgin Mary, and includes the Islamic teaching that Jesus is not the son of God and should not be worshipped, which has provoked criticism from some Anglicans. Discipline The former Bishop of Rochester, the Right Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, said: “Christians should know what their fellow citizens believe and this can include reading the Koran for themselves, whether in the original or in translation. This is not, however, the same thing as having it read in Church in the context of public worship. “The authorities of the Scottish Episcopal Church should immediately repudiate this ill-advised invitation and exercise appropriate discipline for those involved.” The cathedral’s provost, the Very Rev Kelvin Holdsworth, said readings of the Koran in the cathedral were part of efforts to build relationships between Christians and Muslims.
Clergyman defends St Mary’s Cathedral Koran reading
St Mary’s has a clergy team which has both straight and gay members.
St Mary’s has been a welcoming place to gay and lesbian people for many years. The Provost talked about this in the following video which was used as part of the campaign for Equal Marriage in Scotland. A number of members of the church were involved in gathering the original signatures for the petition which led to this legislation.
LGBT Network - St Mary's Cathedral, Glasgow
This last reference says a lot about why they brought more anti-Christ teaching into the church.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
You're welcome.
It seems to be a world-wide trend to distort and spread untruths about the Muslim faith--there's no shortage of pieces like what's linked in the OP.
That's also not true. Did you not read the copy directly from the Qu'ran? They believe Jesus is the Word of God---a messenger sent in order to proclaim God's love and mercy (how is that "anti-Christ"?).
As a side note---the mosque this gal is affiliated with has invited someone from St Mary's to read the "Magnificat of Mary" (because they also agree with those words). In case you aren't familiar with that:
>>>>>My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord,
my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant.
From this day all generations will call me blessed:
the Almighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his Name.
He has mercy on those who fear him
in every generation.
He has shown the strength of his arm,
he has scattered the proud in their conceit.
He has cast down the mighty from their thrones,
and has lifted up the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.
He has come to the help of his servant Israel
for he remembered his promise of mercy,
the promise he made to our fathers,
to Abraham and his children forever.
(Luke 1:46-55)
Let me ask you this: Would you have the same issue with this church inviting a Rabbi to recite the holy Jewish prayers in Hebrew with translation (because they have done that as well)?
Upvote
0
Similar threads
