Discussion King David and King Saul

[Gregory Thompson]

Look through the bible at the life of King David and King Saul, which person do you identify with the most? Why?

 

[Biblicist]

Look through the bible at the life of King David and King Saul, which person do you identify with the most? Why?

I think that most of us would probably say David, though I think I should leave out how he arranged for the murder of his mistresses husband!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think that most of us would probably say David, though I think I should leave out how he arranged for the murder of his mistresses husband!

Yeah, I liked that God didn't care that Uriah was a Hittite but that he was treated unfairly and betrayed, that was the one thing he did that was considered "not a good example" by the biblical text. I relate more with King David as well.

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

I guess Saul, he had one spouse and so do I

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

There is a classic rabbinical view of Saul that makes him appear in the most favourable light as man, as hero, and as king. In this view it was on account of his modesty that he did not reveal the fact that he had been anointed king (1 Samuel 10:16; Meg. 13b); and he was extraordinarily upright as well as perfectly just. Nor was there any one more pious than he (M. Q. 16b; Ex. Rashi 30:12). When he received the command to smite Amalek (1 Samuel 15:3), Saul said: For one found slain the Torah requires a sin offering [Deuteronomy 21:1-9]; and here so many shall be slain. If the old have sinned, why should the young suffer; and if men have been guilty, why should the cattle be destroyed? It was this mildness that cost him his crown. And while Saul was merciful to his enemies, he was strict with his own people; But if his mercy toward a foe was a sin, it was his only one; and it was his misfortune that it was reckoned against him, while David, although he had committed much iniquity, was so favored that it was not remembered to his injury (Yoma 22b; M. Q. 16b, and Rashi ad loc.). In some respects Saul was superior to David, e.g., in having only one concubine {Rizpah}, while David had many. Saul expended his own substance for the war, and although he knew that he and his sons would fall in battle, he nevertheless went forward, while David heeded the wish of his soldiers not to go to war in person (2 Samuel 21:17; Lev. Rashi 26:7; Yalq., Sam. 138).

According to the Rabbis, Saul ate his food with due regard for the rules of ceremonial purity prescribed for the sacrifice (Yalq., l.c.), and taught the people how they should slay cattle (cf 1 Samuel 14:34). His anger at the Gibeonites (2 Samuel 21:2) was not personal hatred, but was induced by zeal for the welfare of Israel (Num. Rashi 8:4). The fact that he made his daughter remarry (1 Samuel 25:44), finds its explanation in his (Saul's) view that her betrothal to David had been gained by false pretenses, and was therefore invalid (Sanhedrin 19b). During the lifetime of Saul there was no idolatry in Israel. The famine in the reign of David (cf 2 Samuel 21:1) was to punish the people, because they had not accorded Saul the proper honours at his burial (Num. Rashi 8:4).

• Classical rabbinical views (source)

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is a classic rabbinical view of Saul that makes him appear in the most favourable light as man, as hero, and as king. In this view it was on account of his modesty that he did not reveal the fact that he had been anointed king (1 Samuel 10:16; Meg. 13b); and he was extraordinarily upright as well as perfectly just. Nor was there any one more pious than he (M. Q. 16b; Ex. Rashi 30:12). When he received the command to smite Amalek (1 Samuel 15:3), Saul said: For one found slain the Torah requires a sin offering [Deuteronomy 21:1-9]; and here so many shall be slain. If the old have sinned, why should the young suffer; and if men have been guilty, why should the cattle be destroyed? It was this mildness that cost him his crown. And while Saul was merciful to his enemies, he was strict with his own people; But if his mercy toward a foe was a sin, it was his only one; and it was his misfortune that it was reckoned against him, while David, although he had committed much iniquity, was so favored that it was not remembered to his injury (Yoma 22b; M. Q. 16b, and Rashi ad loc.). In some respects Saul was superior to David, e.g., in having only one concubine {Rizpah}, while David had many. Saul expended his own substance for the war, and although he knew that he and his sons would fall in battle, he nevertheless went forward, while David heeded the wish of his soldiers not to go to war in person (2 Samuel 21:17; Lev. Rashi 26:7; Yalq., Sam. 138).

According to the Rabbis, Saul ate his food with due regard for the rules of ceremonial purity prescribed for the sacrifice (Yalq., l.c.), and taught the people how they should slay cattle (cf 1 Samuel 14:34). His anger at the Gibeonites (2 Samuel 21:2) was not personal hatred, but was induced by zeal for the welfare of Israel (Num. Rashi 8:4). The fact that he made his daughter remarry (1 Samuel 25:44), finds its explanation in his (Saul's) view that her betrothal to David had been gained by false pretenses, and was therefore invalid (Sanhedrin 19b). During the lifetime of Saul there was no idolatry in Israel. The famine in the reign of David (cf 2 Samuel 21:1) was to punish the people, because they had not accorded Saul the proper honours at his burial (Num. Rashi 8:4).

• Classical rabbinical views (source)

Saul was in NO WAY superior to King David. David sinned, for sure and God punished him.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

King David was superior to King Saul. King Saul when chosen was because of how he appeared to the eyes of men, but he fell short. King David when chosen was chosen because of how he appeared to the eyes of God.

 

[Alithis]

Look through the bible at the life of King David and King Saul, which person do you identify with the most? Why?

hard put to get honest replies to such a question.. folks see themselves as better then others see them lol.

i would like to say i identify with david more .. but that would not be honest .
it is honest to say ..i wish to identify more with David ..

but in truth .. as in the flesh sense of things .
it is saul i am more like in everyday life .. and so many of us are IF we are honest ..

we run around "doing things" and say 'its for the lord ".. but unless we are faithfully doing the one things the holy Spirit is asking of us .. we are actually doing those OTHER THINGS out of guilt .., which makes them works of iniquity . We run around making many sacrifices because we are not doing the ONE Thing the Holy Spirit is presently asking of us ..but to avoid obedience we make many a sacrifice ... saul was a pleaser of men -he confessed it to be so saying "i have sinned for i feared the people"

well ,thats how i find it is in my life . and as i have learned to deal with the one thing the lord is speaking to me about and be obedient in THAT! then he increases in me and leads me onwards to the next thing he is asking of me ...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

hard put to get honest replies to such a question.. folks see themselves as better then others see them lol.

i would like to say i identify with david more .. but that would not be honest .
it is honest to say ..i wish to identify more with David ..

but in truth .. as in the flesh sense of things .
it is saul i am more like in everyday life .. and so many of us are IF we are honest ..

we run around "doing things" and say 'its for the lord ".. but unless we are faithfully doing the one things the holy Spirit is asking of us .. we are actually doing those OTHER THINGS out of guilt .., which makes them works of iniquity . We run around making many sacrifices because we are not doing the ONE Thing the Holy Spirit is presently asking of us ..but to avoid obedience we make many a sacrifice ... saul was a pleaser of men -he confessed it to be so saying "i have sinned for i feared the people"

well ,thats how i find it is in my life . and as i have learned to deal with the one thing the lord is speaking to me about and be obedient in THAT! then he increases in me and leads me onwards to the next thing he is asking of me ...

I appreciate your candor. I tend to relate more to David because of the mercy he represents, that's the way I see God being also, that's basically the main reason, mercy and love being central to the way.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

A part of me relates to Saul, but it tends to bring me closer to death, so I don't like to feed it so much .. still have a bunch of things to do.

 

[tturt]

To me, the main difference between the two is their fear of man and the fear of The Lord.

Saul is an example of having "the fear of man." In I Sam 13:11, he made the sacrifice which he wasn't suppose to do. His reason - "Because I saw that the people were scattered from me..." Then from I Sam 15, Samuel said God sent me to tell you to totally destroy the Amalekites but he didn't. His reason "...for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen." to sacrifice. v15 When Samuel told him that Yahweh had rejected him, his major concern was still about how the people would view him = v 30 "Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord thy God." Then Samuel goes on to say that "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry" and "...to obey is better than sacrifice..."

The fear of man contrast with having the fear of The Lord which means we honor and revere Yahweh to the extent that we chose what Yahweh wants or doesn't want - in spite of what others may think including ourselves. There are several verses that state "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Prov 1:7 and "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom:..." Psa 111:10 David had the fear of The Lord.

 

[Alithis]

yup ,thats the ,said with the edge of a .. its the , im going to stick a in that .you got the rolling with some real points and brought the down.We cant that away... oh ummmm, yeh ok sorrry, had an urge for emoji overload haha

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What I was thinking was, there are people who relate to Saul all the time in their theology around here, and David. These two groups always seem to be in contention . this topic is possibly the spiritual root of that contention. I was reminded of this one instance when David was on the run I would suppose from Absalom's troops, he encountered a member of the house of Saul who was throwing stones at him and hurling insults, he was asked what he wanted to do and said .. if the Lord sent this man then let him speak basically. However, the mention of the house of Saul after the death of Saul reminded me of how the house of David became bigger and the house of Saul became smaller, but it never said the house of Saul was totally gone.
.
In my imagination the two houses seem to still be fighting to this day.
.
2nd Samuel Chapter 16

5 As King David approached Bahurim, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei son of Gera, and he cursed as he came out. 6 He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left. 7 As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! 8 The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”

9 Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head.”

10 But the king said, “What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the Lord said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who can ask, ‘Why do you do this?’”

11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, “My son, my own flesh and blood, is trying to kill me. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the Lord has told him to.

 

[jiminpa]

Who do I really identify with? Yeah, Saul. Who do I wish I identified with, David. Saul did all the things, but his heart was selfish. David blew it to the point of adultury and murder, but his heart was God's. Even Saul's obediences were held against him in the end, because he was obedient for the wrong reasons, and even David's sins were forgiven, and he was quick to turn back to God because that's where his heart was.

 

[jiminpa]

What I was thinking was, there are people who relate to Saul all the time in their theology around here, and David. These two groups always seem to be in contention . this topic is possibly the spiritual root of that contention. I was reminded of this one instance when David was on the run I would suppose from Absalom's troops, he encountered a member of the house of Saul who was throwing stones at him and hurling insults, he was asked what he wanted to do and said .. if the Lord sent this man then let him speak basically. However, the mention of the house of Saul after the death of Saul reminded me of how the house of David became bigger and the house of Saul became smaller, but it never said the house of Saul was totally gone.
.
In my imagination the two houses seem to still be fighting to this day.
.
2nd Samuel Chapter 16

5 As King David approached Bahurim, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei son of Gera, and he cursed as he came out. 6 He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left. 7 As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! 8 The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”

9 Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head.”

10 But the king said, “What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the Lord said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who can ask, ‘Why do you do this?’”

11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, “My son, my own flesh and blood, is trying to kill me. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the Lord has told him to.

But David didn't kill Saul, or his household. David mourned Saul and Jonathan's deaths. The accusations were false. It looks to me like David was allowing his despair to guide him, yet I doubt he would have taken action even in his strength, because Shimel was little more than an irritant.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Queen Esther

 

[ToBeLoved]

But David didn't kill Saul, or his household. David mourned Saul and Jonathan's deaths. The accusations were false. It looks to me like David was allowing his despair to guide him, yet I doubt he would have taken action even in his strength, because Shimel was little more than an irritant.

Yup In fact, David had all of Israel mourning Saul's death. As a sign of respect and forgiveness of Sayl who wronged (tried to kill) him.

David knew that it was God's will.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

But David didn't kill Saul, or his household. David mourned Saul and Jonathan's deaths. The accusations were false. It looks to me like David was allowing his despair to guide him, yet I doubt he would have taken action even in his strength, because Shimel was little more than an irritant.

1) David was acknowledging that God was punishing his wickedness
2) David was turning the other cheek.

 

[tturt]

Yeah, David respected Saul because he was Yahweh's anointed (I Sam 22). But we don't mind posting our opinions of ministers and other folks we don't agree with - me included.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yeah, David respected Saul because he was Yahweh's anointed (I Sam 22). But we don't mind posting our opinions of ministers and other folks we don't agree with - me included.

Well, that's the thing with the new covenant, we are all anointed. Greatness is determined in terms of service, if someone uses an earthly hierarchy to puff themselves up as great but has not yet served you .. I dunno .. that christlike part can't help be a little offended at the pride in that .