Judge ends attempt to ban Indians name, logo before ALCS game

[Tallguy88]

More related articles to the OP.

HuffPost Canada Will Not Be Using Racist Sports Team Names

Indigenous Activists, Artists And Politicians Speak Out On #NotYourMascot And Racist Team Names

There is also this older article on the Cleveland Indians from Indian Country Today Media Network.

Blackhorse: 100 Years of Chief Wahoo and the 'Grinning Face of Racism'

Can't watch the video on the first one right now. Are they saying that the word "Indians" is racist? That's stretching it I think. I know a lot of card-carrying Indians who prefer that term over other generic terms.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Can't watch the video on the first one right now. Are they saying that the word "Indians" is racist? That's stretching it I think. I know a lot of card-carrying Indians who prefer that term over other generic terms.

I know a lot of natives who prefer not to be called Indians because it is considered a colonized term. They prefer Indigenous or be referred to what their tribe is. I know some who do not mind Indian or Native American or NDN while others prefer Indigenous.

Blackhorse: Do You Prefer ‘Native American’ or ‘American Indian’? 6 Prominent Voices Respond

 

[SnowyMacie]

I know a lot of natives who prefer not to be called Indians because it is considered a colonized term. They prefer Indigenous or be referred to what their tribe is. I know some who do not mind Indian or Native American or NDN while others prefer Indigenous.

Blackhorse: Do You Prefer ‘Native American’ or ‘American Indian’? 6 Prominent Voices Respond

This is what I have heard as well.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Can't watch the video on the first one right now. Are they saying that the word "Indians" is racist? That's stretching it I think. I know a lot of card-carrying Indians who prefer that term over other generic terms.

In comparison to "Redskins" "Indians" is not racist. I do wonder if a blue Chief Wahoo would be seen as offensive, but I can't comment on that. The term Indians really does come from Columbus thinking he landed in India, and the name stuck.

 

[Tallguy88]

I know a lot of natives who prefer not to be called Indians because it is considered a colonized term. They prefer Indigenous or be referred to what their tribe is. I know some who do not mind Indian or Native American or NDN while others prefer Indigenous.

Blackhorse: Do You Prefer ‘Native American’ or ‘American Indian’? 6 Prominent Voices Respond

The point is, if Indians themselves are so divided on the term, how can it rightly be called a derogatory term when a decent segment actually prefer that term?

 

[Shiloh Raven]

The point is, if Indians themselves are so divided on the term, how can it rightly be called a derogatory term when a decent segment actually prefer that term?

I do not personally consider Indians to be a derogatory term while other natives do. Concerning the baseball team, it is not so much the term Indians as it is this racist caricature which has been claimed to honor Native Americans.

I will tell you that Redface is not an honor.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I do not personally consider Indians to be a derogatory term while other natives do. Concerning the baseball team, it is not so much the term Indians as it is this racist caricature which has been claimed to honor Native Americans.

I will tell you that Redface is not an honor.

View attachment 184281

In your personal opinion, how would you feel about a blue Chief Wahoo?

 

[Shiloh Raven]

In your personal opinion, how would you feel about a blue Chief Wahoo?

Red, blue, green whatever, Chief Wahoo is still a caricature, so changing him to blue is still wrong. I do not approve of any Indian mascots, regardless of the color. However, I especially do not like Redface. I gave my reasons in my first post here.

 

[Tallguy88]

I do not personally consider Indians to be a derogatory term while other natives do. Concerning the baseball team, it is not so much the term Indians as it is this racist caricature which has been claimed to honor Native Americans.

I will tell you that Redface is not an honor.

View attachment 184281

Thanks. I always say Indian, unless I'm referring to a specific tribe, like Cherokee. It's what we've always called them and ourselves when discussing our Native ancestry.

 

[bill5]

I'm not a big fan of Chief Wahoo. They could tone him down and respect him up a bit and he'd be a perfectly acceptabel mascot.

It's not a thing to me either way and I'm sick to death of all the whiny political correctness, but agree w/this. It is a bit silly looking.

That said, I'm glad for this. Finally, a blow against the PC nuttiness is won. Refreshing.

Yeah I'm looking for an Indians-Cubs series too. Go Cubs!

Neither team means anything to me, but it would be nice to see someone who hasn't won it in so long finally do it. This WS in that way would be great.

And apparently, the Washington team with a racist slur

Except that there's no such team. Nobody uses the term "Redskins" as a racist slur. It's a ridiculous accusation.

And funny how I never hear anyone complaining about Notre Dame Fighting Irish. Or the Minnesota Vikings.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Thanks. I always say Indian, unless I'm referring to a specific tribe, like Cherokee. It's what we've always called them and ourselves when discussing our Native ancestry.

I think it depends on the Indigenous person you talk to. Back to the OP. I saw another article that has been circulating and I thought it was relevant to this discussion too. I also want to thank you for your respectful responses. I appreciate it.

Descendants of first Native American major leaguer want Cleveland’s Chief Wahoo scrapped

 

[Tallguy88]

Cleveland won. They're going to the World Series.

Cubs won, so they are tied 2-2 with the Dodgers.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Go Indians
Go Buckeyes (just so people understand).....

If only the browns had the ability of the rest of Cleveland's sports teams.

 

[expos4ever]

If I may comment, without being flamed or goaded, I would like to address the issue of Indian mascots and share an opposing opinion of their use. I waited to see how this thread would go and it is evolving exactly how I thought it would.

Me too. And it only confirms my belief that the Internet, sadly, is a place where people who hold decidedly unhealthy views can come to find others of like mind to endorse their faulty thinking. In other words, ideas and beliefs that rightly invite rebuke are instead nursed into full flower of expression.

These symbols are clearly racist and they need to go! And the irony, of course, is that there is no downside. The Redskins, Brave, Indians, etc. will lose no business by changing their mascots.

Look: we would never tolerate a chicken restaurant whose symbol was a grinning black man chowing down on a leg of fried chicken. And rightly so, precisely because such symbols feed our innate fear of "the other" and only function to sew division.

 

[expos4ever]

My main concern is that it's not a matter for a court to decide, especially a foreign court.

Why not? Surely you are not arguing that Major League Baseball is somehow immune from obeying the laws of the land? Yes, there are limited ways in which organizations like MLB should have "different rules" (e.g. if someone threw a baseball at 90 mph and plunked me in the head in the street, that person should be charged with assault; in a baseball game, by contrast, one forfeits the right to an expectation of personal physical safety).

But I suggest it is rather clear that organizations like MLB must be subject to anti-discrimination laws. And those are not set by MLB, they are set by the relevant national / state (or province) / municipal bodies.

And on this "foreign court" issue: That game was being played in Toronto. So the law of Canada / Ontario are indeed the ones that apply. If I, as a Canadian, travel to the USA I am, of course, subject to American law. So I am not sure why you appear to the think the reverse does not also apply.

 

[Tallguy88]

Why not? Surely you are not arguing that Major League Baseball is somehow immune from obeying the laws of the land? Yes, there are limited ways in which organizations like MLB should have "different rules" (e.g. if someone threw a baseball at 90 mph and plunked me in the head in the street, that person should be charged with assault; in a baseball game, by contrast, one forfeits the right to an expectation of personal physical safety).

But I suggest it is rather clear that organizations like MLB must be subject to anti-discrimination laws. And those are not set by MLB, they are set by the relevant national / state (or province) / municipal bodies.

And on this "foreign court" issue: That game was being played in Toronto. So the law of Canada / Ontario are indeed the ones that apply. If I, as a Canadian, travel to the USA I am, of course, subject to American law. So I am not sure why you appear to the think the reverse does not also apply.

That's the point. The foreign court has no jurisdiction outside of Canada. So at most they could make them change their uniforms for a few games per year.

And this judge didn't believe that the Indians fell foul of Canada's laws.

Also, the Indians don't have Chief Wahoo on their regular uniforms. Just the word "Indians" on the Jersey and a "C" on their hats.

 

[expos4ever]

By the way, I am not sure that I think it should it should be illegal to name a team "Indians", "Braves", etc. But I do think the owners should voluntarily change the names as a symbolic act that says "we want to leave behind all 'markers' that split humanity up into racial groups precisely because of the legacy of pain and suffering such divisions have wrought in the past and because we want to participate in overcoming humanity's inborn tendency to be distrustful of people of different skin colours".

 

[bill5]

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Im not a native american, but i can see how the Cleveland indians mascot can be offensive. Do us white folk even have anything close to that today?

 

[Tallguy88]

Im not a native american, but i can see how the Cleveland indians mascot can be offensive. Do us white folk even have anything close to that today?

hillbilly and redneck mascots