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Jonathan Fisk, youtube, and many other things

Discussion in 'Theologia Crucis - Lutherans' started by dario68w, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. dario68w

    dario68w Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

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    Hello everyone and God's blessings upon everyone. As many here know, I want to join the Missouri Synod. The Lutheran Chaplain that is here however travels alot, and is hardly ever here, so my encounters with him have been very few, though helpful. My other thread I posted not to long ago that speaks about how I need patient and how excited I am still holds. I feel like I'm going nuts, for one to be with my awesome loving family, and the other to start my journey in joining the LC-MS. I have been so "thirsty" for knowledge on Lutheran Theology and I've been looking up much on my own and "self" teaching.

    Thanks to a link another member here posted, I have been looking at Jonathan Fisk's World View Everlasting videos as of late and that has been so awesome. Are there any others however on youtube or anything that can help me get more knowledge. I have also been speaking to my soon to be Pastor and he has been very helpful on clarifying things as well.

    Also, and last, as many know, christians from other denominations and I gather to simply read the bible, and talk about what we believe it says. Slowly I have been introducing Lutheran Theologies in there, today however, was really heavy on it, gospel vs. law, justification, sanctification, we had a discussion on speaking in tongues as well, and they actually agreed with all of the LCMS official point of views... and that was cool, but, I know for a fact that the Pentecostals and Baptist and whatnot do NOT hold these views. Should I talk to them about lutheranism?

    How can I even talk about Lutheranism when I am barely learning about it and only scratching the surface, how can I hold a debate that it is indeed biblical and that their views aren't, without involving their faith in God, because I can see it, they are devout christian men... I've invited all of them to join me to church but they are set on their churches except for my best friend here. He's willing to tag along. I mean, I had a discussion with one in particular how I came to Lutheranism and his words were:

    "Be careful because even though it may be biblical and you agree with their theology you might not do so good in their church, you might end up leaving it later..." And I was just very dumbfounded, how can that even begin to make sense?

    1. It is biblical
    2. I think it's biblical
    3. I think it's a pure Christian teaching
    4. I agree with it's theology

    How can that not be good for me to join... whatever, now I'm ranting. Sorry. Anyway, that's all I got.

    (EDIT: Clarification for any that don't know me, we are in Afghanistan, there are no churches here, and we have 3 Chaplains that rotate, one which I think I have narrowed down to Baptist, 1 Roman Catholic, and 1 Lutheran.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012
  2. Lizabth

    Lizabth Marburgian- Lutheran

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    Well, remember: you are a Christian first and foremost. This gives you much in common with your brothers and sisters of other denominations. Maybe this was what your chum was trying to convey to you?

    Be careful not to focus so much on LC-MS that you lose sight of Jesus and his love for ALL His people. We, none of us, have it all correct. Not even Jonathan Fisk ;)

    I hope you are able to read a lot of Luther. If you have a Kindle, Amazon has some good selections.
     
  3. dario68w

    dario68w Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

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    Hello Lizabth, and God bless. The LC-MS is not viewed as a church, but all the churches at least on paper agree with these views and that is the synod. I'm sure it's more complicated then that but I believe that is a dumbed down version. With this being said, I realize that LC-MS does not = Jesus, I beleive in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, and his only Son, our Lord, and in the Holy Spirit, that these are one. The reason I want to get into the Concordia, Small Catechism and other such texts so much, is not to follow Luther, but rather because it's Biblical. My Christian brothers here are saved, I'm not doubting that, I am not referring to this, I am speaking now on Biblical Doctrine, what is taught in the Lutheran Church that is biblical and correct. This accuracy is what I am craving, to learn these doctrines and leave behind the Bias'ed unbiblical views that I once had.

    I was once that person that would randomly pull verses out of the Bible completely out of context and use it, not because I wanted to fool anyone, but because I really thought I was learning and teaching biblical, I wasn't looking at it as a whole. This is the reason this question mainly is on a Lutheran forum. I hope that clarifies it, my questions on this page aren't about salvation or the judgement or hate of my Christian brothers, for they are brothers in Christ and are great amazing loving people who I love and get along with, its simply about Lutheran Theology. May our Holy Triune God be with you and bless you.
     
  4. Tangible

    Tangible 100% Saint & 100% Sinner

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    I reacted in a similar way when I first became Lutheran. I've heard it referred to as 'Convert Zeal'. You're really excited about everything you're learning, and that really is great. Just be sure you're not depending too much on the emotions you're experiencing and you'll be fine. A few years down the road you may not still be as excited, and that's to be expected.

    One thing I experienced, and continue to experience, is frustration with cradle Lutherans who are envious of the popularity and emotionalism of American Evangelicalism. In my church the pastor (IMO) doesn't do a very good job of teaching people to distinguish between true doctrine and false doctrine, and there is a very heavy influence from American Evangelical theology and practice. When I have tried to encourage them to treasure their Lutheran heritage, some of them have been offended.

    Hang in there. Even the Lutheran church is just a bunch of sinners, redeemed by God's grace.
     
  5. John Constantine

    John Constantine Evangelical Orthodox Catholic

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    Simul Iustus et Peccator!

    :D
     
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  6. wordsoflife

    wordsoflife New Member

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    I have visited every major denomination and it is my experience that the LCMS is the most correct.
     
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  7. jonmolby

    jonmolby Sinner/Saint

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    Some good podcasts that have been helping me are; "Issues Etc.", "God Whisperers", "Table Talk Radio", "Radical Grace", and "Fighting for the Faith". Hope at least one of these are helpful and edifying for you.
     
  8. Red 5

    Red 5 Newbie

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    'Issues Etc.' is the best radio show ever. If you ever are wondering about a topic even tangentially related to Christianity, they likely have an episode on it. Great guests. Great hosts. Christ centered. Cross focused.

    'Fighting for the Faith' is a tad bit annoying IMHO. I think its because Chris Rosebrough kind of grates on me and tends to go on and on and on.

    'Table Talk Radio' is great for a fun hour. I love those mediocre guys.
     
  9. Tangible

    Tangible 100% Saint & 100% Sinner

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    The God Whisperers is like a Lutheran theological version of Car Talk.
     
  10. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

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    Unfortunately this can be misunderstood, implying “Christian first, Lutheran second.” But that is not accurate. Rather, it is:

    Christian by faith, Lutheran by confession.

     
  11. Red 5

    Red 5 Newbie

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    The God Whisperers can also take a long time to get to theological discussion. If they stuck to talking theology their show would be among my favorites. Instead they'll spend 40 minutes out of a 60 minute show talking about bacon. It's their show, so that's their right. However, it does kind of turn me off.
     
  12. DaRev

    DaRev New Member

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    The intent of this show was to reach those who would not otherwise talk about Christianity or attend a church. But they tend to become somewhat crude which is not a very good way of introducing people to the Christian faith.
     
  13. dario68w

    dario68w Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

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    I have to agree that issues etc is amazing.
     
  14. Tangible

    Tangible 100% Saint & 100% Sinner

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    I like to listen to the Godwhisperers and Table Talk Radio when I'm doing housework and such simply for the entertainment value. My expectations of them as a learning resource are very low, but every once in a while I actually catch something useful in passing.
     
  15. dario68w

    dario68w Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

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    I can see how crudevturns peoplw off. Pastor fisk is bad with that but he is intended for lutherans. Also the worship for shutins is awesome. I skipped church last week to care for my wife and daughter that were sick and I enjoyed viewing their service!

     
  16. Doctor Strangelove

    Doctor Strangelove Senior Member

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    That is so true. I was raised as a Lutheran. I eventually had to leave the ELCA and there were several reasons I could not join an LCMS church, although I think there are many very good things especially with the LCMS. One thing I noticed is a lot of American Lutherans seem to have an inferiority complex towards evangelicals and fundamentalists. I have seen that in a lot of ways. I have seen some Lutheran churches try to hide their identity and be like any generic evangelical/Baptist church (only with wine and the Real Presence at Communion - an important distinction, but still...). I thought why, why? There are so many distinctive things the Lutheran church could bring to the culture but there is this attitude that one should be like everyone else. :doh:

    I eventually wound up going to something other than a Lutheran church and I like it but I still think of myself as almost a Lutheran in exile. I guess that might make me a hypocrite when I say that I wish more Lutherans would give up trying to be something else and be happy being Lutheran. I hope I don't sound like I am trolling here, that is not my intention.
     
  17. Red 5

    Red 5 Newbie

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    Amen, brother. Lutherans should take pride in being Lutherans. When you see all the heresy that goes on in Evangelicalism, I don't know why anyone would want to be like them.
     
  18. jonmolby

    jonmolby Sinner/Saint

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    Hahaha so true, I find them funny though. When they do talk theology its brilliant, and their "sometimes crude conversation" actually has helped me out of my judging other Christians due to my backround in "holier than thou circles" in that they demonstrate that to be found in Christ doesn't mean that your life has to be perfect. I also appreciate that they are just themselves and don't try pretending to be perfect.
     
  19. dario68w

    dario68w Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

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    Imma have to check these people out! I also can relate btw as I too came from those churches you mentioned.

     
  20. Daniel Stinson

    Daniel Stinson Junior Member

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    dario68w,

    Rev. Jonathan Fisk is a former Arminian and puts most of his focus there and he's great for really brief and fast paced theology from the Confessional Lutheran viewpoint.

    Rev. Jordan Cooper's "Just & Sinnner" Google+ Blogger page is an absolute must for Confessional Lutherans. He has hour long or longer discussions interviewing other denominations and maintaining civil debate; especially with the different denominations of Calvinist (Reformed) and Arminians (Remonstrance).

    The Evangelical Church of Germany (EKD) was founded on the Unaltered Augsburg Confession of 1530, drafted by Philipp Melanchthon and Dr. Martin Luther. Dr. Luther fell into poor health in the late 1530's and Melanchthon gained control of the EKD. Melanchthon compromised with John Calvin on key components of EKD's 1530 theology and authored the Altered Augsburg Confession of 1540, which John Calvin signed and accepted as a pack between the Evangelicals under Luther and Reformed under Calvin. Philippists were known as the followers of Philipp Melanchthon's 1540 Confession; because of the compromises made with John Calvin, they were also known as Crypto-Calvinist. Philipp Melanchthon compromised again in his Re-Altered Augsburg Confession of 1542 with the Papacy and Holy Roman Empire.

    Evangelicals more aligned to the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther over that of the Philippists (Crypto-Calvinist) began to resist challenges to their doctrine. After Dr. Martin Luther's death, it took nearly 40-yrs to draft an actual doctrine within the (UAC) Unaltered Augsburg Confession of 1530. The Formula of Concord in 1580 resulted in the Triglotta Concordance becoming the official doctrine of Orthodox Lutheranism. In 1580 we see the 1st "Lutheran" congregations forming into existence apart from the EKD's Philippists (Crypto-Calvinist), approximately 40-yrs after Dr. Martin Luther's death.

    WELS, CLC, and LCMS are Confessional Lutherans to the Unaltered Augsburg Confession of 1530 alone and don't accept the 1540 or 1542 confessions as doctrinal benefits under our Book of Concord.

    The EKD was confiscated by the Prussian government in the late 1700's and made the State's religion; changing the EKD's congregational name to the Prussian Union. In the early 1800's the Prussian Union created their government based Church in the US under their German Evangelical Synod, but changed their name later to Evangelical Synod of North America. They are neither Lutheran or Calvinist, but used hybrid catechisms from both religions and some are known as Reformed Lutheran or Crypto-Calvinist to this day. In the 1900's they changed their name to the United Church of Christ (UCC); which is mistakenly confused with the 2nd Baptist (Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ) or even some Mormon groups with very similar names.

    When selecting a LCMS congregation it's especially important that they publicly confess to the UAC of 1530; some have slipped away over time and just go through the motions. It's a long held tradition in the LCMS and WELS to put UAC on their Church's cornerstone, entrance, or sign in public view. It's basically used to demonstrate themselves as a badge of authenticity.

    Study free-will extensively as a Lutheran from the Book of Concord; we don't exercise it to the same extent as Roman-Catholics, Eastern-Orthodox, or Arminians; nor do we restrain it to the extent of Calvinist. It's also not appropriate to say we hold to a middle position to the others, because our doctrine is more unique altogether in proper explanation. A Lutheran theologian at Patrick Henry College wrote a good article on the subject:
    "The Freewill Issue in Theological Perspective"

    Properly understanding Lutheranism's viewpoint on free-will helps a great deal in explaining the 5-points/3-views of divine election (Synod of Dort, 1600's):
    Reformed/Calvinists: TULIP
    Evangelical/Lutherans: TUURF
    Arminian/Arminius: SCURF

    Lutheranism: "Divine Election… Predestination A Lutheran Perspective"
    also: Christ Our Savior Lutheran Church:resources tab "TULIPSCURFTUURF"
    Total Depravity
    Unconditional Election
    Universal Atonement
    Resistive Faith
    Fallibility of the Saints

    This should be enough to get you on a level playing field dario68w with Lutheranism in respect to Calvinist or Arminian leanings.

    For Lutherans, speaking a foreign language is a gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. In ACTS we see the crowd acknowledging the Apostles speaking in the Apostles' native tongues, yet the crowd was able to comprehend in their own native tongues. The Holy Spirit, not the Apostles, did all the work as the Apostles didn't speak in any unknown language, but used their own. There's only very brief mentioning of Angelic tongues, but the Holy Scriptures reveal very little about Angelic tongues other than to say we know they exist. The Scriptures thoroughly explain that the Holy Spirit picks and chooses specified gifts to bless upon us at his discretion. Lutherans only take issue with those who believe they can coerce the Holy Spirit against his will to provide specific or all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Scripture indicates that the use of tongues will diminish over time, which is Biblically falling into place through electronic media and consolidation of regimes, and contradicts the position of those who demand the Holy Spirit increases speaking in Angelic tongues.

    I hope this helps as you come to understand Confessional Lutheranism.
     
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