It is pointless for Lutherans to claim episcopal succession (Бессмысленно лютеранам заявлять о епископском преемстве)

[Nagomirov]

You forgot that there are Greek Catholics practicing the Byzantine rite.

 

[Nagomirov]

There are Catholics of the ancient Eastern churches (Oriental): Coptic Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Syrian Catholics (Jacobites), Chaldean Catholics (Assyrians), Malabars, Malankara, Maronites, Melkites.

 

[Paidiske]

You forgot that there are Greek Catholics practicing the Byzantine rite.

Why would you assume that I forgot any such thing?

I reiterate: what I see Orthodox authors say consistently, is that the Orthodox understanding of ministry and sacraments is not the same as the Catholic understanding.

 

[Nagomirov]

"Transubstantiation as a Roman Catholic doctrine is the use of Aristotelian philosophical categories of “substance” (what makes a thing what it is) and “accidents” (incidental attributes of a thing) to explain how it is that the bread and wine of the Eucharist still appear to be bread and wine (in their “accidents”) while having undergone a change in their “substance” to be the Body and Blood of Christ. This explanation goes beyond simply stating that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood.

We also have the term transubstantiation. In addition, in order for you to understand that the meaning is preserved, we keep the pre-consecrated gifts in the tabernacle, just like Catholics. The Orthodox also have pre-consecrated gifts, which are kept in the tabernacle on the throne, in the altar. The priest communicates with them to the sick and dying, going to their home. This is my last message.

 

[Nagomirov]

Why would you assume that I forgot any such thing?

I reiterate: what I see Orthodox authors say consistently, is that the Orthodox understanding of ministry and sacraments is not the same as the Catholic understanding.

The modernists say. Turn on the logic, I have given you the Byzantine iconography above, which depicts transubstantiation. I have quoted to you from Theophylact, which speaks directly about transubstantiation, I have given you two stories from the Ancient Patericus, which speaks about transubstantiation, I have given you a story told by the Russian Saint Ignatius Bryanchaninov, talking about transubstantiation. I have given you quotes from saints, including a Russian, a quote from a Greek theologian, who speak about the same understanding of Redemption among Catholics and Orthodox. There are modernists in theology who think that the traditional understanding that has always been there is supposedly a "Latin captivity", but they are mistaken and betray their modernism.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why would you assume that I forgot any such thing?

I reiterate: what I see Orthodox authors say consistently, is that the Orthodox understanding of ministry and sacraments is not the same as the Catholic understanding.

That’s true, although the differences are often subtle except where it relates to the filioque, the nature of apostolic succession (the Orthodox largely believe, after St. Cyprian of Carthage, that heretical bishops cannot confer Apostolic Succession or perform valid ordinations, which is a huge departure from the Augustinian model of ex opere operanto, and then there is a difference of approach, wherein without invalidating Western marriages, the Eastern churches, including oddly enough the Eastern Catholic churches, all have liturgical theologies in which the priest causes the man and wife to be married in the service of Holy Matrimony as opposed to the couple confecting the sacrament on themselves, which I would argue is actually a Scholastic innovation and we see traces of a Byzantine-like sacrament when even in Anglicanism the minister pronounces the marriage, but of course I feel obliged, having, as a former US president once quixotically admitted, strong opinions that I often disagree with, to point out that as Confession demonstrates, we can pronounce things without having actually performed them.

At any rate the absolute theological conformity that @Nagomirov sees, I wish I saw, and I will go so far as to say I almost see it, but there are minor differences, although being much more ecumenically minded than most Orthodox I would be less disinclined than many to set those minor differences aside, if it were not for the egregious actions of Pope Francis with traditiones custodes and especially fiducia supplicans, which is why I support the Coptic Pope of Alexandria Tawadros II, who had developed a very warm working relationship with Pope Francis, for they both took office around the same time, immediately terminating all ecumenical dialogue with Rome.

 

[Nagomirov]

Why would you assume that I forgot any such thing?

I reiterate: what I see Orthodox authors say consistently, is that the Orthodox understanding of ministry and sacraments is not the same as the Catholic understanding.

If the Orthodox denied transubstantiation, they would not keep the Body and Blood of Christ in the tabernacle, they would not keep the Gifts in the tabernacle, then there would be no practice of pre-consecrated Gifts. That's it for sure now, I won't answer anymore.

 

[The Liturgist]

The modernists say. Turn on the logic, I have given you the Byzantine iconography above, which depicts transubstantiation. I have quoted to you from Theophylact, which speaks directly about transubstantiation, I have given you two stories from the Ancient Patericus, which speaks about transubstantiation, I have given you a story told by the Russian Saint Ignatius Bryanchaninov, talking about transubstantiation. I have given you quotes from saints, including a Russian, a quote from a Greek theologian, who speak about the same understanding of Redemption among Catholics and Orthodox. There are modernists in theology who think that the traditional understanding that has always been there is supposedly a "Latin captivity", but they are mistaken and betray their modernism.

Transubstantiation is a point of possible harmony given that some Orthodox fathers used the term and we certainly share a belief in the real presence. The problem is really that Pope Francis is prepared to admit the blessing of sodomites who should be excommunicated until they repent, and then subject to canonical penances as prescribed in the Rudder.

 

[The Liturgist]

If the Orthodox denied transubstantiation, they would not keep the Body and Blood of Christ in the tabernacle, they would not keep the Gifts in the tabernacle, then there would be no practice of pre-consecrated Gifts. That's it for sure now, I won't answer anymore.

I think we agree something close to transubstantiation; there is some Scholastic baggage with the term which make me dislike it, but I do believe the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, and I do believe in the reservation of the sacrament and the Pre-sanctified Liturgy, so on this we agree.

 

[Nagomirov]

That’s true, although the differences are often subtle except where it relates to the filioque, the nature of apostolic succession (the Orthodox largely believe, after St. Cyprian of Carthage, that heretical bishops cannot confer Apostolic Succession or perform valid ordinations, which is a huge departure from the Augustinian model of ex opere operanto, and then there is a difference of approach, wherein without invalidating Western marriages, the Eastern churches, including oddly enough the Eastern Catholic churches, all have liturgical theologies in which the priest causes the man and wife to be married in the service of Holy Matrimony as opposed to the couple confecting the sacrament on themselves, which I would argue is actually a Scholastic innovation and we see traces of a Byzantine-like sacrament when even in Anglicanism the minister pronounces the marriage, but of course I feel obliged, having, as a former US president once quixotically admitted, strong opinions that I often disagree with, to point out that as Confession demonstrates, we can pronounce things without having actually performed them.

The Russian Church accepts Catholic priests, recognizing the Ihsan, recognizing them in their true dignity!

Here is the proof:

1) Гавриил (Бунге) — Википедия

2) Константин (Симон) — Википедия

If the text is in Russian, then translate it into English by an online translator.

 

[The Liturgist]

Catholicism also has modernism, and there is traditionalism. John Paul and Francis expressed modernist ideas. Lubeck is also considered a modernist theologian, as is Chardin. This is as an example. In Catholicism, we must look for something that is closer to traditionalism, tradition.

Amen to that. Most of my frustration with the Roman Catholic Church is due to modernists, for example Annibale Bugnini.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Russian Church accepts Catholic priests, recognizing the Ihsan, recognizing them in their true dignity!

Here is the proof:

1) Гавриил (Бунге) — Википедия

2) Константин (Симон) — Википедия

If the text is in Russian, then translate it into English by an online translator.

Yes I know. We receive them by Vesting. However ROCOR received priests from the Episcopal Church by vesting as recently as 1947, which is actually less shocking than the changes that have happened to the Episcopal Church since 1947!

 

[The Liturgist]

Bull of the Lion 13:

"To this essential defect of form is added the defect of intention, which is equally essential for the sacrament. The Church does not judge about a thought or intention (intention), as far as it, by its very essence, is something internal; but it must judge about it, as far as it manifests itself outside. So, if anyone, when performing and teaching the sacrament, reverently and according to the order uses matter and proper form, he is recognized for this very reason as having the intention to do what the Church does. This is the basis of the teaching, according to which the sacrament is really taught, even by a heretic or not baptized, as long as it is taught according to the Catholic order. On the contrary, if the rite is changed with the explicit purpose of introducing another one that is not accepted by the Church, and the one that she performs is rejected, and which, according to Christ's establishment, refers to the very essence of the sacrament; then it is obvious that not only does
the sacrament lack the necessary intention, but this intention is even contrary to the sacrament and destroys it."

Of Pope Leo XIII presumably.

 

[Nagomirov]

Папы Льва XIII предположительно.

Transubstantiation is a point of possible harmony given that some Orthodox fathers used the term and we certainly share a belief in the real presence. The problem is really that Pope Francis is prepared to admit the blessing of sodomites who should be excommunicated until they repent, and then subject to canonical penances as prescribed in the Rudder.

And who are you by denomination?

 

[Nagomirov]

Why would you assume that I forgot any such thing?

I reiterate: what I see Orthodox authors say consistently, is that the Orthodox understanding of ministry and sacraments is not the same as the Catholic understanding.

I wanted to ask you a question: do you serve the Sarum rite in Australia?

 

[Paidiske]

I wanted to ask you a question: do you serve the Sarum rite in Australia?

To the best of my knowledge, that rite is not authorised for use in the Anglican Church of Australia. It is possible that permission has been given somewhere and I don't know of it (we have 23 dioceses, and I have only served in two of them).

 

[Nagomirov]

Coptic Saint Abdel Masih Al-Makari (1892 - 1963). Pope Cyril VI of Alexandria testified to his holiness and asceticism. El Makariy was known for his humility and asceticism. It is said that he possessed the gift of foresight, discernment of spirits and healing of the sick. He was very compassionate and gave everything he was given to those in need. He died on Easter Sunday morning, April 14, 1963 / 6 (Parmuti 1669 am).

 

[Nagomirov]

Imperishable Relics:

Icon:

The Coptic Saint Yostos el Anthony (also known as Abuna Eustace or the Silent Monk) is a Coptic ascetic of the 20th century, a monk of the monastery of St. Anthony.

He became famous for his strict ascetic life. Imitating the ancient saints, he imposed a vow of silence on himself. The only phrases he uttered were: "What time is it now?" (thus reminding his neighbors of the need to constantly do good deeds and refrain from evil ones) and "Thank God."

The famous Coptic archpastor Shenouda III said of Abun Yostos, "he was a living example of the monks of the IV century" (i.e., looking at his life, one could imagine what the first Egyptian monks, the founders of monasticism, looked like).

Abuna Yostos departed to the Lord in 1976.

His memory in the Coptic Church is celebrated on December 17 (8 konyak according to the Coptic calendar).

 

[Nagomirov]

The Catholic Church, even before the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, recognized the possibility of salvation in non-Orthodox Christianity!

 

[Nagomirov]

For example, regarding formal and material heretics, the distinction was already made by Saints Jerome and Augustine. For example, Jerome writes: "Heretics condemn themselves because they choose (suo arbitrio) to leave the Church because they know (conscientia) about this curse" (PL, vol 26, col 598). Here St. Jerome uses the concept of "conscientia" - denoting the judgment of the mind and conscience, i.e. the heretic must be aware with his mind and conscience that he opposes the Church, which in the opposite case implies the possibility of unintended error (ignorance). Augustine clarifies that "whoever with careful concern seeks the truth (quaerunt autem cauta sollicitudine veritatem) and is ready to be corrected when he finds it (corrigi parati, cum invenerint) can in no way be considered a heretic" (PL, vol 33, col 160). This implies insurmountable ignorance and enrollment in material heretics, when a person is in a state of heresy, but he is not guilty of it, there is no moral guilt on him. Such a person is mistaken in the matter of faith, not knowing the dogmas of faith. Therefore, among other things, in the Catholic Encyclopedia (1907-1912) edited by Joseph Pohl, it is stated that "The gentle breath of Grace is not limited to the walls of the Catholic Church, but reaches the hearts of many who remain distant, influencing them with the miracle of justification and thereby ensuring the eternal salvation of countless people who either, as Orthodox Jews and Gentiles do not know the true Church, or, like many Protestants trained in gross prejudice, cannot appreciate its true nature. For all of them, the Church does not close the gates of Heaven, although it insists that there are important means of Grace that are inaccessible to non-Catholics."