John Nelson Darby and the Novelty Factor

[The Liturgist]

Not at all. Jesus was 100% human. The point is we are not 100% human. We are in a state of death and corruption.

The means by which we are delivered from this state is through resurrection after the fashion of our Lord, who put on our human nature in order that it could be restored and glorified, which we see in evidence after His resurrection.

 

[The Liturgist]

It does not contradict Scripture, which is all I am concerned about.

Respectfully, if you disagree with or reject the Nicene Creed, you should respect the Statement of Purpose for this forum, and the site rules, and not post in Christian-only areas. I have not reported your posts and am trying to help you, by alerting you to the fact that you are posting in a part of the forum reserved for members who adhere to the Nicene Creed.

 

[Timtofly]

The means by which we are delivered from this state is through resurrection after the fashion of our Lord, who put on our human nature in order that it could be restored and glorified, which we see in evidence after His resurrection.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

Of course, on the Cross, Jesus became sin for us. But Jesus was not born a sinner, in sinful flesh.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus did not have Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The whole point I have been making all along. Jesus was still 100% human. Jesus was the perfect Lamb without spot or blemish. Jesus was not just another sinner who died for and needed His own salvation. Jesus faced temptation and never gave in to that temptation.

What verse says He put on our human nature at birth? Hebrews 2:16

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Legally Jesus was born to Mary, and not some women in India. But human nature?

Jesus showed Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, His full glory, way before he died on a Cross and was resurrected. The Cross did not change Jesus. Jesus as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world was the change needed for 2 Corinthians 5:1 to be possible:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

We will have that permanent incorruptible physical body from God, the moment we leave this physical corruptible body. And that is all because of the Cross. We will be like Jesus at the Second Coming as He was on the mount of Transfiguration.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

 

[Timtofly]

Respectfully, if you disagree with or reject the Nicene Creed, you should respect the Statement of Purpose for this forum, and the site rules, and not post in Christian-only areas. I have not reported your posts and am trying to help you, by alerting you to the fact that you are posting in a part of the forum reserved for members who adhere to the Nicene Creed.

Where does the Nicene Creed say Jesus was born a sinner?

Because I never made that claim, but you seem to think I have to, in order to agree with the Nicene Creed.

So I am in trouble for being more Christian than other Christians?

 

[Douggg]

That leaves Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. I guess we are all pretty much out then. LOL

Mary is the Mother of God; indisputable unless you deny the divinity of Christ. Period.

Mark, Jesus was God before Mary was born. So Mary is not the mother of God, per se. You could say that Mary was the mother of the Son of Man title of Jesus, though. Mary was the mother of Jesus - Jesus is God - before Mary existed.

Jesus is the Son of God because he came forth from God.

Colossians 1:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[Valletta]

Mark, Jesus was God before Mary was born. So Mary is not the mother of God, per se. You could say that Mary was the mother of the Son of Man title of Jesus, though. Mary was the mother of Jesus - Jesus is God - before Mary existed.

Jesus is the Son of God because he came forth from God.

Colossians 1:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Thus Mary is the mother of God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Thus Mary is the mother of God.

Indeed.

And this conclusion was reached not by us, here in the 21st century, but at the Council of Ephesus in 433 AD, and which was reiterated at the subsequent Council of Chalcedon, both of which are accepted by all major Protestant denominations.

Even John Calvin agreed with St. Mary’s status as Theotokos, which he did not want to do, for he held on to the same erroneous fear as Nestorius, that being the idea that recognizing her as Theotokos would lead to an excess of Marian veneration. However unlike Nestorius, Calvin at least was sufficiently honest with himself regarding the Scriptural texts, and sufficiently well read, also, I might note; it seems quite possible given the position of Calvin in time relative to the development of the Printing Press meant that he would have had more access to information than Nestorius and was more well read, although Nestorius clearly appears to have been literate, and indeed it is unlikely that an illiterate man could have become the Patriarch of Constantinople in the fourth century.

 

[Valletta]

Indeed.

And this conclusion was reached not by us, here in the 21st century, but at the Council of Ephesus in 433 AD, and which was reiterated at the subsequent Council of Chalcedon, both of which are accepted by all major Protestant denominations.

Even John Calvin agreed with St. Mary’s status as Theotokos, which he did not want to do, for he held on to the same erroneous fear as Nestorius, that being the idea that recognizing her as Theotokos would lead to an excess of Marian veneration. However unlike Nestorius, Calvin at least was sufficiently honest with himself regarding the Scriptural texts, and sufficiently well read, also, I might note; it seems quite possible given the position of Calvin in time relative to the development of the Printing Press meant that he would have had more access to information than Nestorius and was more well read, although Nestorius clearly appears to have been literate, and indeed it is unlikely that an illiterate man could have become the Patriarch of Constantinople in the fourth century.

As I recall Calvin was horrified at some of the statements made against Mary and/or her role in salvation history.

 

[The Liturgist]

Where does the Nicene Creed say Jesus was born a sinner?

Because I never made that claim, but you seem to think I have to, in order to agree with the Nicene Creed.

No one is saying our Lord was born a sinner. This is not true. But he did condescend to put on our mortal human nature and did die, and thus trampled down death by death; he rose from the dead in a state of perpetual imperishability, and thus made it possible for us to be resurrected in the same manner.

The problem is that you seem to regard your entirely novel theology, which is extremely problematic for a large number of reason, as the only solution to the Nicene Creed, and you also seem to regard the Nicene Creed itself as unimportant based on your prior posts.

So I am in trouble for being more Christian than other Christians?

That statement is both offensive and concerning. Do you really believe that, that you yourself are more Christian than everyone else?

 

[The Liturgist]

As I recall Calvin was horrified at some of the statements made against Mary and/or her role in salvation history.

That is my recollection as well, but his veneration of the Theotokos did not reach the level of, for instance, Martin Luther, who continued to pray and recommend a version of the Hail Mary, or of Saints Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague, whose faith was basically that of the Eastern Orthodox or of modern Catholics who attend vernacular liturgies and receive the Eucharist in both species.

 

[The Liturgist]

Of course, on the Cross, Jesus became sin for us.

The statement you refer to does not mean that our Lord literally became sinful or an agent of sin and evil, for this would be impossible for God, since sin is not created or creatable, since it can be defined as any opposition to or misalignment with the will of God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus showed Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, His full glory, way before he died on a Cross and was resurrected. The Cross did not change Jesus.

After the resurrection, scripture makes it clear that our Lord had altered his human nature and was now capable of passing through closed doors, and so on, something which was not the case previously. Indeed our Lord was not even initially recognized by his disciples.

This is why St. Paul writes that we shall all be changed; we shall be raised incorruptible, as our Lord was.

Part of the problem here is that your position appears to depend on a highly eisegetical and selective reading of the New Testament text. But the larger issue is that you seem to believe that it makes you more Christian than anyone else, which is a problematic assertion and one which appears in and of itself to clash with the New Testament.

 

[FenderTL5]

Jesus did not have Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Hebrews 2 says, "..therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.. Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. "

This is the same message echoed in the Paschal Troparion (an ancient hymn of the Resurrection)
Christ is risen from the dead,
trampling down death by death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!

Adam sinned bringing death into the world and mankind. "..sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men.. because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."

Jesus absolutely takes on Adam's dead corruptible flesh in order to defeat death.
One of my favorite refrains is found in the Orthros Service just prior to the Doxology:
through Him who.. became incarnate, Hades has been captured, and Adam has been called back; the curse has been killed, and Eve has been freed; death has been put to death, and we have been brought back to life. Therefore we extol Him and cry out, “O Christ our God, You are blessed, for so was Your good pleasure. Glory to You!”

Jesus reverses what Adam has done.
He (Christ) is born, He lives (sinless), He dies and is resurrected and through this there is the good news that by becoming like Christ, in His life, we too can live.
There's is no part of the Gospel that is irrelevant, from Annunciation to birth, through Transfiguration, His death, burial and resurrection and on to His Glorious Second Coming every part of that story is for our salvation.

 

[The Liturgist]

Hebrews 2 says, "..therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.. Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. "

This is the same message echoed in the Paschal Troparion (an ancient hymn of the Resurrection)
Christ is risen from the dead,
trampling down death by death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!

Adam sinned bringing death into the world and mankind. "..sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men.. because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."

Jesus absolutely takes on Adam's dead corruptible flesh in order to defeat death.
One of my favorite refrains is found in the Orthros Service just prior to the Doxology:
through Him who.. became incarnate, Hades has been captured, and Adam has been called back; the curse has been killed, and Eve has been freed; death has been put to death, and we have been brought back to life. Therefore we extol Him and cry out, “O Christ our God, You are blessed, for so was Your good pleasure. Glory to You!”

Jesus reverses what Adam has done.
He (Christ) is born, He lives (sinless), He dies and is resurrected and through this there is the good news that by becoming like Christ, in His life, we too can live.
There's is no part of the Gospel that is irrelevant, from Annunciation to birth, through Transfiguration, His death, burial and resurrection and on to His Glorious Second Coming every part of that story is for our salvation.

This is entirely correct, as one would expect, since your post very correctly quotes the Pentecostarion. From the services for Holy Week whose hymns are contained in the ancient Orthodox liturgical text known as the Triodion, and the services for Pascha and Bright Week and the following Sundays of what our Western friends call “Eastertide” whose hymns are contained in the text known as the Pentecostarion, one can extract the entirety of the Apostolic Christian theology of Salvation and the entirety of Christology. This is also largely true of other liturgical texts from other rites that cover the same service, but I particularly like how the Byzantine Rite does Holy Week and Bright Week.

 

[Douggg]

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Thus Mary is the mother of God.

MOTHER OF GOD IN THE BIBLE

See 'mother of God' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

 

[Valletta]

MOTHER OF GOD IN THE BIBLE

See 'mother of God' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

See 'mother of my Lord' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

"THE MOTHER OF MY LORD" IN THE BIBLE

See 'the mother of my lord' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

 

[The Liturgist]

MOTHER OF GOD IN THE BIBLE

See 'mother of God' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Are you denying that Jesus Christ is God incarnate?

 

[FenderTL5]

See 'mother of my Lord' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

"THE MOTHER OF MY LORD" IN THE BIBLE

See 'the mother of my lord' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Then there's Matthew 1
(KJV) ..Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ..
.. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary..

The NIV states it this way, "Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.."
"..This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary.."

 

[Douggg]

Are you denying that Jesus Christ is God incarnate?

No, of course not.

 

[The Liturgist]

No, of course not.

Do you believe that the human Jesus can be divided from or regarded as separate to the divine Christ, the only-begotten Son and Logos?

The reason I am asking is I am seeking to understand your position.