John Nelson Darby and the Novelty Factor

[har_habayit]

I have read a lot about the pre-trib rapture being false because "no one taught it or believed it" until John Nelson Darby started teaching it in the 1800's. This view is promoted a lot by people who denounce the pre-trib rapture view.

It reminds me a lot of the view that Protestantism has no basis in the historical church up until the 1500's. Protestants believe that the church failed for 1500 years and that only because of Martin Luther and his fellow reformers, the "true church" was restored to its first century purity. However, there is no record of anything approaching today's Protestantism in the early church. Even Martin Luther believed in venerating the Virgin Mary and the doctrine of Communion being the literal body and blood of Christ. Most of Protestantism's evangelical denominations are pretty divorced from historical Christianity and that includes Reformed Christianity as it existed 400 years ago.

So, my question to those who say the pre-trib rapture is false because no one taught it or believed it until the 1800's, why are you Protestant? According to your logic, Protestantism is false, because no believed it or taught it until the Reformation? Seems like shaky logic to use if you're Protestant and post-trib.

 

[sandman]

There have been people who have accused me of following Darby (whom, I have never read anything from) stating that the pre-trib was never taught until he brought it to light…..to which I mention → Paul, by revelation from Jesus Christ.

The dark ages (middle ages) are due to one factor and one core adherent to that factor that I won’t get into now….except to say that …we really wouldn’t know to what extent the pre-trib was, or was not being taught or believed.... as any writings or works of Albigenses, Lombards, and the Waldenses were destroyed by the one core adherent… when they were found.

But even with the Darby argument, which is absolutely lame …because the Bible provides multiple scripture that supports, dictates, and succinctly expresses the truth that …if you are born again there will be a pre-trib gathering together…

 

[keras]

if you are born again there will be a pre-trib gathering together…

Correct, but not to heaven.
The Christian peoples will migrate to and live in all of the holy Land. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9

The theory of being raptured to heaven, is wrong and can never happen. Eventually, Gid and therefore heaven come to us, Revelation 21:4
A rapture to heaven of the Church is the prevalent belief of the Western Christians today. This is very unfortunate as when it doesn’t happen, many may lose their faith.
The ‘rapture’ is a belief based on assumptions, inferences and pure guesswork:

The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is not Biblical.
1/ Such an idea is not found in the Bible.
2/ Jesus refutes it five times; John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10
3/ Unprecedented, why should God remove His people today, when all up until today have been persecuted and martyred.
4/ The prophets have told us what will happen in the end times and how we must endure until the end.
5/ The ongoing dispute of pre, mid, post or anytime rapture, is evidence enough of there being no proper scripture about a 'rapture'.
6/ Jesus said that we Christians could be deceived. He was right!
7/ Peter said that Satan is prowling around looking who he can devour with his lies and Paul says that people will turn to fables and listen to 'nice' stories, turning away from sound teaching.

God has given us the information so we know His Plans for the end times, great Promises of protection and Blessings to His people as they stand firm in their faith, as they go thru all that must happen and welcome Jesus when He Returns.

 

[sandman]

The theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is not Biblical.

True .... it is an assumption and is not stated specifically in the Word. However, it is certainly not the worst assumption that people have made ... as there are a few scriptures that do strongly indicate that truth …but it is never directly stated.

You may remember in our previous discussion(s) here and BSF … I have stated, there can be nothing in the OT or gospel prophecy regarding the rapture, as those prophecy were dealing strictly with Israel. The rapture does not deal with Israel …. it deals with those of us in this administration of grace and more specifically the Church of God …the one new man, the body of Christ. This was a secret (mystery) that God had kept hidden and not revealed until Paul received it by revelation. (Eph 3:5&6 … Rom 16:25&26 … Col 1:26) …If it was a secret (mystery) that God was revealing to Paul ….then it wasn’t known until it was revealed.

The great tribulation was not a mystery….. and any Judean from their upbringing would have knowledge of the prophetic events of end times (Day of the lord). But this mystery of Jews & Gentiles being fellow heirs and of the same body was a secret that God had kept hidden, it was enshrined within this administration of grace….and the rapture itself is proprietary to only those of us born again, of the body of Christ, The Church of God ….no one else….only the dead in Christ and alive in Christ at the time He returns for us in the air …not to the ground…… Then after the Church of God has bolted …then all the prophecy that you know much more about than myself will begin to take place.

 

[keras]

He returns for us in the air

1 Thess 4:17, tells us about how those faithful peoples will be gathered to Jesus when He Returns. A transportation thru the earths atmosphere.
At the Return, not before, proved by Matthew 24:30-31

Jesus is Returning to the earth, to commence His Millennium reign. We go to be with Him -in Jerusalem, not heaven!

… Then after the Church of God has bolted …then all the prophecy that you know much more about than myself will begin to take place.

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, as plainly described in Revelation, are completed with the 7th Bowl that is: with the Battke of Armageddon, when Jesus will Return, Revelation 19:11-21
There will be no 'bolting' or escape to heaven for anyone, we all must endure until the end. Even the 2 Witnesses do not go to live in heaven, they will join the martyrs killed during the GT and will be resurrected. Revelation 20:4

 

[Douggg]

The Christian peoples will migrate to and live in all of the holy Land.

That is not a rapture/resurrection.

The rapture involves being changed into eternal everlasting bodies.

 

[keras]

That is not a rapture/resurrection.

No, because there is no 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, said to happen anywhere in the Bible.

The rapture involves being changed into eternal everlasting bodies.

That will only happen after the Millennium, to all whose names are found in the Book of Life. Rev 20:11-15

 

[Douggg]

No, because there is no 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, said to happen anywhere in the Bible.

Where is Jesus right now ? Where did Jesus go ? Where are the mansions ? No man goes to heaven but by Jesus.

John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

 

[keras]

Where is Jesus right now ? Where did Jesus go ? Where are the mansions ? No man goes to heaven but by Jesus.

No man goes to heaven but by Jesus' Quote Douggg
Very devious of you, the correct quote is: No man can come to the Father, but by Me.

Heaven is the Spiritual realm and we humans never go there. Only after the Millennium; in Eternity does God and therefore heaven, come to us. Revelation 21:1-7
THAT is when we get to live in the New Jerusalem, as John 14 describes.

 

[Douggg]

No man goes to heaven but by Jesus' Quote Douggg
Very devious of you, the correct quote is: No man can come to the Father, but by Me.

Where is the Father ? Jesus said in my Father's house are many mansions. Where is the Father's house ?

 

[Douggg]

Heaven is the Spiritual realm and we humans never go there. Only after the Millennium; in Eternity does God and therefore heaven, come to us. Revelation 21:1-7
THAT is when we get to live in the New Jerusalem, as John 14 describes.

No, Jesus is talking about him coming again to receive us unto Himself. The rapture/resurrection. And be where he is. In heaven, in His Father's house.

Revelation 21:1-7 is not talking about Jesus coming again.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Clare73]

I have read a lot about the pre-trib rapture being false because "no one taught it or believed it" until John Nelson Darby started teaching it in the 1800's.

Actually, it is false because it is contrary to NT apostolic teaching.

 

[keras]

No, Jesus is talking about him coming again to receive us unto Himself. The rapture/resurrection. And be where he is. In heaven, in His Father's house.

If Jesus comes again; it means He will leave heaven and Return to the earth. How can Christians go to heaven, if Jesus is not there?

The truth is stated in Matthew 24:30-31, where He sends His angels to gather the faithful peoples who have maintained their trust in Jesus during the testing end times, as described in Revelation, from Rev 6:12 to Rev 19:10
Where He will be, is told to us in Zechariah 14:4

The belief of a 'rapture/resurrection', or any bodily change before the GWT Judgment, is false and can never happen.

 

[Douggg]

If Jesus comes again; it means He will leave heaven and Return to the earth. How can Christians go to heaven, if Jesus is not there?

Because Jesus comes again to receive Christians unto Himself. And take them to the mansions in His Father's house. Where is the Father?

 

[keras]

Because Jesus comes again to receive Christians unto Himself. And take them to the mansions in His Father's house. Where is the Father?

What happens when Jesus Returns, is that He destroys the armies at Armageddon and chains up Satan. He then gathers His faithful people to Himself and commences His Millennium reign, on earth. All as Prophesied in Revelation 19:11-21 and Rev 29:1-6

Your scenario is just a figment of your imagination, a lot of wishful thinking that is not Biblical at all.
Asking the question: 'Where is the Father', demonstrates your inability to understand basic Biblical facts. God the Father is omnipresent. We Christians come to God thru our belief in Jesus. John 14:6 We don't need to 'go' anywhere!

Rapture to heaven believers are in for a nasty shock. Their cozy and comfortable belief will not happen and the great test of our faith, the soon to happen Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, will cause many to renounce their shallow Christianity.
The winnowing fork of Jesus! Matthew 3:12, 1 Peter 4:12

 

[Douggg]

Your scenario is just a figment of your imagination, a lot of wishful thinking that is not Biblical at all.
Asking the question: 'Where is the Father', demonstrates your inability to understand basic Biblical facts. God the Father is omnipresent. We Christians come to God thru our belief in Jesus. John 14:6 We don't need to 'go' anywhere!

keras, you should stop with all the rants like in the first sentence, and just answer the question.

Where is the Father? You say omnipresent. Here is what Jesus says...

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Here is the first verse of the Lord's prayer...

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

 

[keras]

keras, you should stop with all the rants like in the first sentence, and just answer the question.

Where is the Father? You say omnipresent. Here is what Jesus says...

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Here is the first verse of the Lord's prayer...

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

If what you say is not Biblical, then to call your beliefs 'figments of your imagination', is perfectly correct.

God is hiding Himself from us, but He is, as a spiritual Being, - All in all. Ephesians 4:6
We do not have to leave the earth to meet with God. Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen did it.

 

[Douggg]

If what you say is not Biblical, then to call your beliefs 'figments of your imagination', is perfectly correct.

God is hiding Himself from us, but He is, as a spiritual Being, - All in all. Ephesians 4:6
We do not have to leave the earth to meet with God. Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen did it.

keras, the mansions are in the Father's house. The Father is in heaven, as John 16:27-28 and Matthew 6:9 says. When the rapture/resurrection takes place, Jesus comes again, and receives us unto Himself. Taking us to heaven, in our translated and resurrected eternal life incorruptible bodies.

 

[sandman]

1 Thess 4:17, tells us about how those faithful peoples will be gathered to Jesus when He Returns. A transportation thru the earths atmosphere.
At the Return, not before, proved by Matthew 24:30-31

Jesus is Returning to the earth, to commence His Millennium reign. We go to be with Him -in Jerusalem, not heaven!

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, as plainly described in Revelation, are completed with the 7th Bowl that is: with the Battke of Armageddon, when Jesus will Return, Revelation 19:11-21
There will be no 'bolting' or escape to heaven for anyone, we all must endure until the end. Even the 2 Witnesses do not go to live in heaven, they will join the martyrs killed during the GT and will be resurrected. Revelation 20:4

There are only three groups of people in the Bible → Jews …. Gentiles …. and Church of God (aka Christians)

There were no Christians in Jesus’s time on earth …which means the only two groups of people Jesus could have spoken to would be → Jews or Gentiles …. But we know that Jesus came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Jews) so that is who He is addressing.

In the church epistles (Romans through Thessalonians) Jesus,... who is now head of all things to the Church (called of God) was not addressing Jew or Gentile…. Jesus is addressing Church of God (Christians).

That verse in Matthew 24:30-31 that you submitted …is regarding the “Day of the Lord” but it cannot be the same as Thessalonians. Because Thessalonians is written to the born again “in Christ Jesus” ….and being “in Christ” did not exist until after the mystery of the one body was revealed….. So, if words have meanings…. verses 13-18 of 1Thess 4 includes nobody … outside of those in Christ as 1Th 4:14 … 1Th 4:16&17 states ….. However, if words don’t have meanings, it renders the Bible is useless.

In Christ ….. In Christ Jesus ….. In Jesus Christ ….. In Jesus ….. In the Lord Jesus .….. and a few other variations which are used in reference to “US” …. the born-again Christian….. members of the Body of Christ, the one new man…. and are used over 170 X throughout the epistles and Acts.

You will not find any of those lexica in the Gospels…. and to no surprise …. You will not find them in Revelation …..they are totally proprietary to the believers of the administration of Grace.

Neither will you find any reference of the following in Revelation … → being in/of the one body of Christ (26x) in the epistles…. Church of God (8x) ….mystery of the 1 body (14x) ……. having or saved by Hope (32x)

But one of the more telling things that is only seen twice in the opening and closing salutations in Revelation (1:4 & 22:21) …. is that of Grace…. yet it is used 116x in the epistles. But even removing the salutations in the epistles, Grace is used 89x throughout the epistles.

What does all that mean ….It means that ….for some reason, before the events of Revelation take place … the administration (dispensation) of Grace ceases ….along with salvation by grace, the one body, the Church of God, the mystery Jews & Gentiles fellow heirs , Christ in you /you in Christ …. No more indwelling of the spirit ….and there is no more Christians when you get to Revelation …it’s back to the other two groups of people Jews and Gentiles …………………………the Church of God has left the building. “Thank you…. (Jesus) thank you very much”

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.1Th 4:18

 

[keras]

. But we know that Jesus came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Jews) so that is who He is addressing.

This is your fundamental error.
Jews belong to the House of Judah, which was never lost; as in: their ancestry is known.
The ten Northern Tribes are the House of Israel and God made the remembrance of their origins to become lost. Deuteronomy 42:26

So the belief that Jesus came to save the Jews, is wrong and we Christians, people from every tribe, race, nation and language are the actual, or the Spiritual descendants of Abraham, As Galatians 3:26-29 clearly states.
You cannot deny - Jesus Saved us! We are therefore the Overcomers for God, literally His Israelite peoples.