"Jerusalem The harlot", Modern Judaism, "Babylon the Great"!

[Ronald]

So in your opinion who is being described in Rev. 14:12?

"And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people"(vs.6)

What many don't realize is that Revelation is not in a chronological order and so events overlap and seen in different vantage points. We can see two different vantage points concerning the 144,000 that are sealed before any harm comes to the earth within the seals (Rev.7) and hear in chapter 14. Keep in mind the 144,000 are specifically Jews from the 12 tribes (whom only God knows). They are saved by Jesus. I do think that the Lord highlighted them in these passages to confirm his covenant with them. He is merciful. We were saved when we were yet sinners as well. It's all grace and a gift that no one deserves.
The resurrection occurs at the seventh trumpet in Rev.9:15 and we can also see the same event within the seals in Rev. 7:9. It sounds confusing when I am stating that the church is still present in Chapter 14:12, yet the resurrection is seen in both the seals (Rev.7:9) and the trumpets (Rev.11:15)! Think of it as a sphere that you have to turn to see different sides for perspective. It's multi-dimensional in scope.

These are a group of people who refuse to worship the beast and his image and the mark of the beast.
'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

Yes,

Would these be Christians or Jews?[/

Particularly the 144,000 are Jews converted to Christianity, but the total multitude are all Christians. Remember there is neither Jew nor gentile when we are in Christ.

 

[Epoisses]

Particularly the 144,000 are Jews converted to Christianity, but the total multitude are all Christians. Remember there is neither Jew nor gentile when we are in Christ.

The Jews as a group will never convert to Christianity. Of course there will be individuals but the nation itself will never and the belief that it will is a pipe-dream. Catholics, long ago abandoned the gospel for a works-based or Judaic religion and Protestants are following rapidly in their foot steps.

There are only two commandments required by the NT and they are faith and love. An old covenant gospel based on keeping the ten commandments is a yoke of bondage that Peter said he nor his fathers were able to bear. Therefore the 144K are spiritual Israel who have the faith of Jesus and God's agape love in their hearts.

 

[deetwang]

John 19:37 37 "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced"

Here is the scripture referred to:

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced , and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn , every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain , every family apart, and their wives apart.
13: 1 "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness".

So in the end, when Jesus returns, the Jews will look upon "Him whom they pierced" and weep and mourn, and repent, and God will take away all the idols they have there, and they will be saved, as Paul prayed "ALL ISRAEL" shall be saved in the last day. We need to pray for them to be saved now too, before all the terrible things happen. Many will die! But the ones still here at that time will see Jesus, recognize Him as their true Messiah, and will repent and be saved, He shall be their God!

 

[deetwang]

You write "My concerns as I approach scripture is "what is true?"

LOL! I don't approach scripture that way, because all scripture is true! You need the Holy Spirit to interpret it though, not just your brilliant mind.

 

[Maon]

Who are the witnesses? Often overlooked, the answer is found in one of Zechariah’s visions. He asked concerning two lampstands, and the answer was given, "These are the two anointed ones, who are standing before the Lord of the whole earth” (Zech. 4:14). Similar language was used in John's vision which applied to the witnesses, "They are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth” (Rev.11:4). To our benefit, Zechariah's vision further explained, first, with instruction to Joshua:

“Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you—indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My Servant the Branch” (Zech. 3:8).

The “men” of the priesthood are a “symbol” for the Branch that removes iniquity from the land (3:9b). The second was identified with Zerubbable (4:5-10; 6:12) the builder who accomplished a great work in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Further, the symbols represent the offices through which the “Servant Branch” administers the “counsel of peace.”

“(He) will build the temple of the Lord. Yes it is He who will build the temple of the Lord, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices” (6:11-12).

Peter described the Church as a “spiritual house” built out of “living stones” (I Pet. 3:5). Thus, Christ builds His temple with living stones and rules from His throne; and the builder and priest are symbols of the offices of Christ's administration. They stand before the Lord of the earth; they are the lampstand/prophets of John's Revelation that are martyred.

 

[ebedmelech]

You write "My concerns as I approach scripture is "what is true?"

LOL! I don't approach scripture that way, because all scripture is true! You need the Holy Spirit to interpret it though, not just your brilliant mind.

If you stop and think...instead of wanting to be confrontational you'd understand.

Naturally scripture is true...but with the many ways it's interpreted, cannot be true.

You can take it from there.

 

[deetwang]

Your question then is "Which doctrines of men are true" in light of scripture. My bible says over and over that GOD is my teacher, counselor, etc. He leads me to believe what I believe, not some guy's ideas about how part is literal and part is spiritual.

If you allegorize scripture, that's when you run into so many different ideas. Some things clearly are spiritual "take the log out of your eye" doesn't mean there's really a log. Etc, but for the most part I take it literally.

 

[Ronald]

The Jews as a group will never convert to Christianity.

Re-read Rom.11:8-11
"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery --so that you will not be wise inyour own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;"Rom.11:25
The fullness of the Gentiles is at the end of the Church Age up till the moment of the resurrection! "And so all Israel will be saved;..."(vs.26)
What part of this supernatural hardening of Israel for the purpose of our salvation and the supernatural removal of their veils at a particular time before the resurrection don't you understand? What part of "all Israel will be saved" (a future prophecy) don't you understand?

There are only two commandments required by the NT and they are faith and love. An old covenant gospel based on keeping the ten commandments is a yoke of bondage that Peter said he nor his fathers were able to bear.

Absolutely, I agree.

Therefore the 144K are spiritual Israel who have the faith of Jesus and God's agape love in their hearts

.
No, it specifically names the 12 tribes which are not spiritual yet, they are physical tribes that only God is aware of their geneology. It's like referring to Italians, Greeks, Egytians, Germans, etc., they are just names of bigger tribes on earth. Tribes, nations, whether Jews or Gentiles are not spiritual UNTIL THEY ARE ACTUALLY SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[ebedmelech]

Your question then is "Which doctrines of men are true" in light of scripture. My bible says over and over that GOD is my teacher, counselor, etc. He leads me to believe what I believe, not some guy's ideas about how part is literal and part is spiritual.

If you allegorize scripture, that's when you run into so many different ideas. Some things clearly are spiritual "take the log out of your eye" doesn't mean there's really a log. Etc, but for the most part I take it literally.

Yep...but read "your bible" a little closer!

You'll find it says Jesus gave men these abilities...try Ephesians 4:11-13! I'll lay out the gifts for you:
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Jesus works through His people...and just as we read through the scriptures and see that God's people are fallible in some of their ways, it's the same today. We understand we are incapable of following and teaching perfectly, so we labor in the word to understand.

Furthermore, you allow scripture to point out allegory! Case in point would be when Paul tells us that Sarah and Hagar are an allegory in Galatians 4:21-31.

So there's precedent right there! Run with that...because now you realize there is allegory...and you have to SEE IT!

 

[deetwang]

Galatians 4:21 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Paul is not saying these things didn't happen, only showing that they ALSO on top of really, truly being real factual events....allegorically describe the differences between the covenant of law vs. the covenant of grace.

 

[ebedmelech]

Galatians 4:21 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Paul is not saying these things didn't happen, only showing that they ALSO on top of really, truly being real factual events....allegorically describe the differences between the covenant of law vs. the covenant of grace.

Did I say Paul said it didn't happen? NO!

What I said...is Paul said they are an allegory. The question would be what is the allegory?

You say they are the "covenant of law vs the covenant of grace" that would be not be true.

Question...where was there ever a covenant of law?

When you find it...let me know.

 

[Manasseh_]

Keep in mind the 144,000 are specifically Jews from the 12 tribes (whom only God knows).

No they're not...........there are only 12,000 from the tribe of Judah,this is the very reason why so many can't understand prophecy not even being able to understand biblical history to begin with, the word jew was a derogatory term for anyone from the House of Judah or tribe of Judah , decendants from Judah, Jacob's 4th son which split with the 10 northern tribes of Israel at a certain point in Israel's history .........after the split scripture refers to the northern tribes as House of Israel and the southern tribes as House of Judah , the word jew didn't appear until the book of Kings

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not "jewish", neither was Moses, he was a Levite...........even Paul the apostle was a Benjamite, not jewish

the 144,000 are the firstfruits of God, God's (Christ's) servants


Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev_7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

all that has to be asked here is What is the "seal of the living God" and who and where is it placed ?


2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

when one departs from iniquity (sin) they are being obedient to God through Christ by the power of God's spirit through faith

Revelation 7 states that they are GOD'S SERVANTS , elsewhere in Revelation a saint is defined as one keeping God's commandments and having the testimony of Jesus

God's servants are those who keep his commandments and as Paul wrote to Timothy , "nameth the name of Christ" (have the testimony of Jesus)

there is only one name for the 144,000 who are God's servants.........the body of Christ , his church (ekklesia)


one more point, the jews as a whole will NOT accept Christ until the end of the tribulation, Christ himself foretold this just before his Olivet prophecy to his apostles............................

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

they will finally repent and accept Christ as Messiah at this second coming when they will finally say "blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord", Jeremiah's prophecy expands

 

[deetwang]

Question...where was there ever a covenant of law?

When you find it...let me know.

Mosaic covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They hide this information..ssshhhhh....the Mosaic Covenant is a secret.

 

[ebedmelech]

Mosaic covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They hide this information..ssshhhhh....the Mosaic Covenant is a secret.

You're quite wrong!!! If that were true why would Paul quote Deuteronomy 30:1-6 as proof that it is "the heart" that leads one to God???

There was never a Covenant of Law obtaining salvation by works! It was always based on faith. Israel was to obey the Law out of FAITH!!! It was Israel that fell into the pattern of works...GOD CONSISTENTLY TOLD THEM TO CIRCUMCISE THEIR HEARTS!!!

HELLLOOOOO????

 

[deetwang]

Ok! Wikipedia has been wrong before! I've heard preachers and many Christians refer to the Mosaic Covenant as "the Covenant of the Law". So I'm not alone in that. I thought the Old Covenant was the Law of Moses and the New Covenant was the blood of Jesus, grace.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, so even in the Old Testament we were saved by faith. And we do need the circumcision of the heart. I know that.

The works of the law can't save anyone, it's faith.

Sorry, and sorry for being sarcastic. He must increase and I must decrease.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ok! Wikipedia has been wrong before! I've heard preachers and many Christians refer to the Mosaic Covenant as "the Covenant of the Law". So I'm not alone in that. I thought the Old Covenant was the Law of Moses and the New Covenant was the blood of Jesus, grace.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, so even in the Old Testament we were saved by faith. And we do need the circumcision of the heart. I know that.

The works of the law can't save anyone, it's faith.

Sorry, and sorry for being sarcastic. He must increase and I must decrease.

So there was NEVER a covenant of law...

Genesis 6:8:
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

When you read of Abraham, what is belief but faith????

There are too many verses that prove faith is the only basis of salvation.

What Paul is saying of Hagar is she is typical of EVERY person that seeks God on the basis of works...and that's exactly the pattern Paul tells us Israel fell into!

Romans 4 tells us this was Israel's failure...and Abraham is the example...so there was NEVER a covenant of law...what there is is Israel's attempt to be righteous by obeying the law...and Paul tells us even David even knew that in Romans 4:7, 8 as he quotes Psalm 32:1
How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered!

NO ONE WAS EVER SAVED OBEYING THE LAW...and that was never the basis of the Law. Every sacrifice ever made by the Law was to be of faith because they all pointed to Christ!

 

[Bethwhite]

Ok! Wikipedia has been wrong before! I've heard preachers and many Christians refer to the Mosaic Covenant as "the Covenant of the Law". So I'm not alone in that. I thought the Old Covenant was the Law of Moses and the New Covenant was the blood of Jesus, grace.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, so even in the Old Testament we were saved by faith. And we do need the circumcision of the heart. I know that.

The works of the law can't save anyone, it's faith.

Sorry, and sorry for being sarcastic. He must increase and I must decrease.

No, you are correct.

The Old Covenant is the Law, forgiveness by the blood of animals.

The New Covenant is salvation by the blood of Jesus.

 

[ebedmelech]

No, you are correct.

The Old Covenant is the Law, forgiveness by the blood of animals.

The New Covenant is salvation by the blood of Jesus.

You're very wrong Beth. That is total error!

God clearly told Israel to "circumcise their heart" which is a metaphorical way of saying have faith. Every sacrifice the made was to be in faith.

You clearly have it in the Passover Lamb...Exodus 12:13:
The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.


Same thing in the NT...1 Corinthians 5:7:
Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

The only difference in the Old and New Covenants is the OT saints looked forward to cross in faith, and the NT saints look back to the cross in faIth.

You're WAY off.

 

[Maon]

Opps. lost and can't keep up, much to much smarts here. But I'll share a little something, and with a question.

The Book of Revelation is like the waves of the sea, providing recapitulation and amplification. Recapitulation overlaps what was previously given, with its purpose to explain and amplify.

Example #1: “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband” (21:2). And one of angels said, “Come here, I shall show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb” (v. 9). The chapter continues with a picture of twelve tribes as a perfected city—a picture of the bride that is made ready. The bride is a city of beauty and dimensional perfection.

Example #2: As with the furnishings of the holy city, the 144,000 also exhibit perfection, a perfection of equality, 12,000 from each tribe (7:4-8). Then the page turns to explain, “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, palm branches were in their hands” (7:9).

And who are they in the Israeli city of new Jerusalem, or they that are counted among the twelve tribes? Paul answered, “Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith that are the sons of Abraham” (Gal. 3:6-7)—in number that no man could count.

But how can Christians claim citizenship in the Israeli city that is patterned after the twelve tribes, cp. 21, and not be counted among the twelve tribes of cp. 7?

 

[Bethwhite]

You're very wrong Beth. That is total error!

God clearly told Israel to "circumcise their heart" which is a metaphorical way of saying have faith. Every sacrifice the made was to be in faith.

You clearly have it in the Passover Lamb...Exodus 12:13:
The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.


Same thing in the NT...1 Corinthians 5:7:
Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

The only difference in the Old and New Covenants is the OT saints looked forward to cross in faith, and the NT saints look back to the cross in faIth.

You're WAY off.

I'm not going to sit here and recount the Law to you.

Hebrews 9 explains it pretty well though.

Hebrews 9:Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The Blood of Christ

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.