Israel vs. Palestine

[Jesdisciple]

Eh, I'm hoping you got some words mixed up there.

But anyway, I have studied thank you very much. The only violence that I know to be endorsed is for disobeying the Law. That's the stoning part that Israel doesn't observe anymore anyway. Heck, they don't even sacrifice anymore. Israel practiced similar policies in the OT to what they do with Palestine now, but I don't recall that coming from Mosaic Law. It came from the Jewish prophets, and I don't think they exist anymore.

 

[Christos Anesti]

The modern state of Israel is the same Israel as mentioned in the Bible.

Even if some of the Jews living in Palestine are part of the Israel of God that wouldn't necessarily imply that current secular state called "Israel" is in fact the Israel of the Bible. I think this point is valid regardless of if one accepts so called "replacement theology" or not.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Faith.Man: I think Anesti was going with E.C. on the replacement theology thing.

To my knowledge the term "replacement theology" has never been used by the Orthodox Church to describe its teachings on who constitutes the Israel of God. The term was invented centuries later by (American ?) Protestants.

I simply hold the traditional patristic view that the Church IS the Israel of God*. That God tore down the wall separating Jew and Gentile and that all who are in Christ (regardless of if they are physically descendent's of Jews or Gentiles) are the Israel of God. Those in Christ are made "sons of Abraham" according to faith. The true Spiritual Israel of God.

I certainly believe that God may have a special plan for "physical Israel" though. I just don't think the modern secular nation state known as "Israel" is in fact the Israel of God. It's just another state that happens to have Jews living in it.

* A view also held to by Luther, Calvin, and most the Protestant reformers that I'm aware of at least.

 

[Faith.Man]

For those who want to delve into the errors of replacement theology, the following link might prove helpful.

Error of Replacement Theology

 

[Jesdisciple]

I am not arguing for replacement theology; when I presented E.C.'s position I made sure to label it as such. My argument is only that Israel no longer practices the Mosaic Law upon which you claim to base your policy toward Israel. And I still doubt that the Law directly supports the religious cleansing promoted by the prophets; they were right to promote it at that time, but we have received no prophetic word regarding Palestine.

Of course I may have missed something in Scripture, and I await a reference. So far all I have seen is outright rejection of discussion for opaque reasons.

 

[E.C.]

I am not arguing for replacement theology; when I presented E.C.'s position I made sure to label it as such. My argument is only that Israel no longer practices the Mosaic Law upon which you claim to base your policy toward Israel. And I still doubt that the Law directly supports the religious cleansing promoted by the prophets; they were right to promote it at that time, but we have received no prophetic word regarding Palestine.

Of course I may have missed something in Scripture, and I await a reference. So far all I have seen is outright rejection of discussion for opaque reasons.

Throw my response with Christos Anesti a post or two up since we hold to the same view; however, stuff in the "real world" here prevented me from making an adequate post, so whatever.

For those who want to delve into the errors of replacement theology, the following link might prove helpful.

Error of Replacement Theology

"Replacement Theology" sounds to me like a term made by American Protestants and not the Orthodox Church.

Look at the Christians in Palestine/Israel. They get along with the Muslims and Bahai more than the Jews because the Jews treat the Christians like second-class human beings. I kid you not. Any time a Jew in Israel walks past a Christian church they spit upon it. We're talking Christians whose ancestors were among the 5,000 at Pentecost and among the thousands baptized and ministered to by the Apostles.

The State of Israel wants all non-Jews out of their country. Sure, they'll treat the Western tourists decently, but they will not treat those in their own backyard like human beings.

Learn about how the Israelis treat the Christians.

 

[Faith.Man]

Why don't we talk about how wonderfully Christians are treated in every Muslim nation in the world! Yet you people want to nitpick tolerance in the only Jewish country. Me thinks your antisemitism is showing. Whether or not Israel is currently following Mosaic Law is immaterial. It's their country!

 

[Jesdisciple]

...This happens to be a thread about Israel. We don't need to discuss Muslim countries because we all agree about them.

If antisemitism means that I don't think the Jewish people or the state of Israel is infallible, I'll take the label.

EDIT: And E.C., does your opinion differ from what we call replacement theology/supersessionism?

 

[Rhamiel]

in the OT Israel was lead by Patriarchs, Judges and then Kings, the Bible shows us that Christ is the fulfillment of the Kingship of David, now how is modern Israel get to be a democracy? it it really is the Israel of the OT it would need to be under the Kingship of Christ
who are the People who walk in the ways of the Lord? Christians, there is no salvation outside of Christ

 

[Jesdisciple]

Rhamiel: According to dispensationalism, Israel will exist before the tribulation, which will come before Christ's millennial kingdom. So until then it doesn't matter how Israel is governed. I hold this doctrine but not very firmly (i.e. I'm open to others if they make sense), although I don't believe Israel has all the authority that it did in the OT. Other than that I believe it should exist, I regard it as essentially the same as other nations for political matters.

 

[E.C.]

Why don't we talk about how wonderfully Christians are treated in every Muslim nation in the world! Yet you people want to nitpick tolerance in the only Jewish country. Me thinks your antisemitism is showing. Whether or not Israel is currently following Mosaic Law is immaterial. It's their country!

Actually, the Christians are treated better in Syria and Lebanon than they are in Israel.

Remember in Syria there was a massacre of the Muslim Brotherhood by the Syrian government? The government did that because the Muslim Brotherhood was planning to kill all the Christians in the area of Syria where this happened.

The reason why the Christians are treated at least half-way decently is because the Muslims don't trust each other with their money and security. Who made up Saddam's bodyguards? Not the Muslims, but the Christians in Iraq who are mostly Chaldean Catholic. In the days of the Ottoman Empire the Christians were in put in charge of financial matters because the Muslims knew that they could be trusted.


And who has been in Palestine/Israel for the past 2,000 years before the Zionists kicked them out? Zionism is fascism, but with a different face. Fascists treated their minorities horribly and drove them out of the country, the Zionists treat their minorities horribly and drive them out of the country and for that the only middle-class left within the Palestinian population, that is the Palestinian Christians, are leaving by the droves.

What results when the moderates and the middle-class do not exist in a country? The Crusades all over again.

EDIT: And E.C., does your opinion differ from what we call replacement theology/supersessionism?

I am not familiar with the term, nor its history therefore I couldn't really say

 

[Faith.Man]

Actually, the Christians are treated better in Syria and Lebanon than they are in Israel.

Remember in Syria there was a massacre of the Muslim Brotherhood by the Syrian government? The government did that because the Muslim Brotherhood was planning to kill all the Christians in the area of Syria where this happened.

The reason why the Christians are treated at least half-way decently is because the Muslims don't trust each other with their money and security. Who made up Saddam's bodyguards? Not the Muslims, but the Christians in Iraq who are mostly Chaldean Catholic. In the days of the Ottoman Empire the Christians were in put in charge of financial matters because the Muslims knew that they could be trusted.


And who has been in Palestine/Israel for the past 2,000 years before the Zionists kicked them out? Zionism is fascism, but with a different face. Fascists treated their minorities horribly and drove them out of the country, the Zionists treat their minorities horribly and drive them out of the country and for that the only middle-class left within the Palestinian population, that is the Palestinian Christians, are leaving by the droves.

What results when the moderates and the middle-class do not exist in a country? The Crusades all over again.


I am not familiar with the term, nor its history therefore I couldn't really say

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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]FAITH UNDER FIRE[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]Christians flee Iraq, find Syria 'ruthless'[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+1]Ministries say believers have no Mideast refuge[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times, serif]By Bob Unruh[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1] © 2009 WorldNetDaily.com [/SIZE]



Thousands of Christians are fleeing from the violence in war-torn Iraq to Syria, but their new home also holds "ruthless" positions against Christianity which range from life in prison for talking about your beliefs to death for a Muslim who converts, according to ministries working there. "It's better than Iraq, but it's no bed of roses there for sure," Jim Jacobson, president of Christian Freedom International, told WND. "The Christians (there) are stuck between a rock and a hard place."

The climate for Christians in Lebanon is much worse. The Muslim run government has naturalized Muslims from Syria, Iraq and Iran to further marginalize the remaining Christians there. So much for your wonderful examples of tolerance. I can also give you first hand accounts of how Christians are treated in Saudi Arabia and Jordan since I worked on projects for King Abdullah II, but what's the point? Your anecdotal evidence (?) cannot stand the test against personal experience.

Don't bother answering this post as I won't be reading it.

 

[Rhamiel]

Ministries say believers have no Mideast refuge

Lebanon?