Israel vs. Palestine

[Jesdisciple]

I find that liberal Christians can inform me on the issues of compassion that I don't normally think of or understand. Sometimes compassion seems to cloud their thoughts, but from a standpoint of personal holiness I find this preferable to cold intellect. Being wise as serpents and gentle as doves is the art of living.

With that in mind, see Jim Wallis' "God's Politics" for a counter-perspective on the Palestinian conflict: blog.sojo.net/tag/palestine/ Please focus on the ones that point out injustice; while their solutions are worth reading, those are where I encounter the most ideological conflict with them.

Now, what should we do about the issue? If you agree with their solutions then bring them up, but there's no need to refute their arguments unless someone here takes them seriously.

 

[Sketcher]

Christians don't really have friends on that side of the world, either Jewish or Muslim. They just make whatever political alliances they see as most likely to help them survive a little longer.

 

[Jesdisciple]

How does that matter? Isn't this still wrong?

Also, some Americans are definitely biased toward Israel.

 

[E.C.]

How does that matter? Isn't this still wrong?

Also, some Americans are definitely biased toward Israel.

It is wrong because the descendants of those who were baptized at Pentecost can not make it to church because they are Palestinian.

The State of Israel will not allow the Palestinian Christians to go to church or to the holy places such as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Christ's tomb), Church of the Nativity or any other just because they are Palestinians.
And yet the Israeli government will allow any Westerner to just walk right into a church or holy place no questions asked.

There is a Palestinian lady in my church who has been in this country since the 1970s yet every time she goes back to Palestine to visit her family she is continually harassed by the Israelis because she is Palestinian even though she A) is an Orthodox Christian and B) has held American citizenship for at least thirty years. She has to go through hours and hours of security screenings at the airport while all the other Christians who are also American citizens get to just walk right on through the door.


Our government's support of Israel is morally wrong because the Israelis are treating the Palestinians the same way that Hitler treated the Jews, Gypsies and so on and so forth. The Palestinian Christians are more so stuck in the middle than anybody because the Islamists want the Christians dead or to pay a jizya, yet the Christians can't support the Israelis because the Israelis want the Christians out and will not allow the Christians to go to church.

When the British had controll over Palestine the city of Bethlehem where Christ was born had a large population and was 90% Christian of a mix of Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Syriac Christians and Armenian Orthodox Christians. As of 2008 when "National Geographic" ran an artical about Bethlehem, only 33% of the city was Christian.

If most Americans were aware of the hardships of the Palestians, especially the Christians, aware of how much support the US gives Israel in terms of military and financial support and aware of how fascist the Israeli government treats the non-Jews; than there would be zero support for Israel from this country.

I don't care if the Jews want a homeland because 6 million of their people were killed by an Austrian, but when they start acting like that Austrian than they, in my opinion, have not truly earned that homeland.

 

[E.C.]

Now for a solution.

The best solution for the conflict would be one-state comprising of what is now Israel, West Bank and Gaza Strip divided into federal zones with the Jerusalem area controlled by the UN for a number of decades.

The best solution for the government would be a confessionalist system similar to Lebanon. In Lebanon, the president can only be a Maronite Christian, the prime minister can only be a Sunni Muslim, the speaker of their parliament can only be a Shi'a Muslim and the deputy speaker can only be an Orthodox Christian.

If a united Israel/Palestine had a system like that than it would, at least hypothetically, work well to guarentee the existence of minorities and everybody else. Afterall, how could you have a prime minister if the prime minister had to be Christian and there were no Christians left in the country?

 

[Ave Maria]

How does that matter? Isn't this still wrong?

Also, some Americans are definitely biased toward Israel.

I am one of those that is biased towards Israel. God said that He woudld bless Israel and that whoever blessed Israel would aslo be blessed.

(Numbers 6:23 ESV) "Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, Thus you shall bless the people of Israel: you shall say to them,
(Numbers 6:24 ESV) The LORD bless you and keep you;
(Numbers 6:25 ESV) the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
(Numbers 6:26 ESV) the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
(Numbers 6:27 ESV) "So shall they put my name upon the people of Israel, and I will bless them."

(Genesis 12:2 ESV) And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
(Genesis 12:3 ESV) I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

See also this article:

Should Christians support the nation of Israel?

 

[Jesdisciple]

Frosty, that article says:

This is not to say that we support necessarily the methods they use in their relationships with the Arab nations.

This thread is about the methods, not the nation itself. I want the nation to exist healthfully, but I will not support its bullying.

EDIT: E.C., sounds good to me. I haven't spent any time at all on this; I just don't want the dern liberals to have a monopoly on it.

 

[Hentenza]

Who are the Palestinian people? Can someone tell me the name of their king or monarch prior to 1948? Can someone tell me the name of their country and where it was located?

 

[sealacamp]

I don't care if the Jews want a homeland because 6 million of their people were killed by an Austrian, but when they start acting like that Austrian than they, in my opinion, have not truly earned that homeland.

Really? All this time I thought it was the promised land and that God gave it to them in the first place.

“Leave your native country, your relatives, and your father’s family, and go to the land that I will show you. I will make you into a great nation. I will bless you and make you famous, and you will be a blessing to others. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you.”

Sealacamp

 

[Sketcher]

Our government's support of Israel is morally wrong because the Israelis are treating the Palestinians the same way that Hitler treated the Jews, Gypsies and so on and so forth.

This I disagree with. Hitler didn't have Jews suicide bombing buses, schools, restaurants, and so forth to deal with. He just didn't like Jews.

The best solution for the government would be a confessionalist system similar to Lebanon. In Lebanon, the president can only be a Maronite Christian, the prime minister can only be a Sunni Muslim, the speaker of their parliament can only be a Shi'a Muslim and the deputy speaker can only be an Orthodox Christian.

If a united Israel/Palestine had a system like that than it would, at least hypothetically, work well to guarentee the existence of minorities and everybody else. Afterall, how could you have a prime minister if the prime minister had to be Christian and there were no Christians left in the country?

Lebanon's system is pretty unstable and weak, though.

 

[E.C.]

Who are the Palestinian people? Can someone tell me the name of their king or monarch prior to 1948? Can someone tell me the name of their country and where it was located?

The Palestinians are descendants of people from ancient times. Greeks, probably some Phoenicians, Jews, the earliest Christians, Canaanites and relatively more recently, Arabs.

Who was the king? George VI of Great Britain due to the British Mandate of Palestine.
Before him, George V also of Great Britain. Before him the Ottoman Turks, before them the Mamluks of Egypt, before them various Islamic caliphates and before them the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire.

The Palestinians are similar to the Jews. They haven't had their own land, ruler or sovereign state. They've been ruled by others since Roman times. The difference between the Palestinians and the Jews is that the Palestinians were able to keep their homeland longer than the Jews.

This I disagree with. Hitler didn't have Jews suicide bombing buses, schools, restaurants, and so forth to deal with. He just didn't like Jews.

Given how the State of Israel treats the Palestinians, one can't help but not blame them.

Lebanon's system is pretty unstable and weak, though.

Yet in a region of fundamentalism on all fronts it does work. Even then one must remember that Lebanon isn't allowed to have their armed forces in the southern portion of the country which is where and why Hezbollah is so prevalent.

Think about it with regards to the south of Lebanon.
No government presence due to the after effects of the Civil War in the 1980s.

Who keeps the peace because they have the guns? Hezbollah.
Who builds the mosques? Hezbollah.
Who builds the hospitals and schools? Hezbollah.
When a peace-loving person's home got leveled in 2006 by Israel's rockets and tanks and zealots who rebuilt the house? Hezbollah.

The Western world and Israel will not allow the Lebanese government to keep law and order in the south of the country, so consequently who fills the power vacuum? Hezbollah.

The only Lebanese that truly have something against Israel are the Shi'a Muslims. Where are they centered population wise? In the East and the South. Who do they get their support from since the government is not allowed to? Hezbollah.

Lebanon is unstable because the West will not allow the government to do anything. Most of the Lebanese do want peace and do want the terrorists out, but they can't get them out because they can't arm their Army and even if they could they couldn't move their Army to where Islamism is a problem.

 

[Jesdisciple]

Who are the Palestinian people? Can someone tell me the name of their king or monarch prior to 1948? Can someone tell me the name of their country and where it was located?

What are you talking about? Palestine was there before Israel; see "Palestine" on Wikipedia unless you have a source that can trump the ones used there.

 

[Hentenza]

The Palestinians are descendants of people from ancient times. Greeks, probably some Phoenicians, Jews, the earliest Christians, Canaanites and relatively more recently, Arabs.

Who was the king? George VI of Great Britain due to the British Mandate of Palestine.
Before him, George V also of Great Britain. Before him the Ottoman Turks, before them the Mamluks of Egypt, before them various Islamic caliphates and before them the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire.

Historically, "palestinians" have never had their own nation. The closest were the Philistines that King David defeated. The area was not called Palestine until after Emperor Hadrian renamed it "Syria Palaestina" following the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135ad. Renaming the land after the Jew's worse historical enemy was a way for Hadrian to further humiliate the Jews.

The Palestinians are similar to the Jews. They haven't had their own land, ruler or sovereign state. They've been ruled by others since Roman times. The difference between the Palestinians and the Jews is that the Palestinians were able to keep their homeland longer than the Jews.

The Jews had a sovereign state governed by a king until the Babylonian exile. "Palestinians" have never had their own sovereign state.

 

[Hentenza]

What are you talking about? Palestine was there before Israel; see "Palestine" on Wikipedia unless you have a source that can trump the ones used there.

I don't think so. Palestine was not called that until after 135ad when Emperor Hadrian renamed the area Syria Palaestina.

 

[Jesdisciple]

I don't think so. Palestine was not called that until after 135ad when Emperor Hadrian renamed the area Syria Palaestina.

So? I'm talking about before 1948. They were there before Israel moved in.

 

[Hentenza]

So? I'm talking about before 1948. They were there before Israel moved in.

How can "they" be there if "they" never had a nation to begin with? Palestine is merely the name given to an area after 135ad not the name of a "people". The land was given to Israel by God over 1300 years before it was even called Palestine. The land belongs to Israel.

 

[Jesdisciple]

How can "they" be there if "they" never had a nation to begin with?

What do you mean they didn't have a nation? They were part of a country with a government.

Palestine is merely the name given to an area after 135ad not the name of a "people".

I don't care what the name is. We can call the people Kabubaloos for all I care. They were there in 1947.

The land was given to Israel by God over 1300 years before it was even called Palestine. The land belongs to Israel.

How does that relate to Israel's treatment of Gentile residents?

 

[Hentenza]

What do you mean they didn't have a nation? They were part of a country with a government.

Which one? What was the name of the country? Who were the heads of government?

 

[Jesdisciple]

Which one? What was the name of the country? Who were the heads of government?

E.C. already answered that and you discounted his answer based on the history of the nation. How the people's ancestors got there is irrelevant; the people are there now.

If Israel has a right to persecute the descendants of invaders, do Native Americans have a right to demand that all us white folks leave?

 

[Hentenza]

E.C. already answered that and you discounted his answer based on the history of the nation. How the people's ancestors got there is irrelevant; the people are there now.

Actually no. Go read his post. What he posted was the the kings of the countries that governed the land not the palestinian people. Since there is and never has been a palestinian country then there can not be a claim for land.
Again, who are the palestinian people?

If Israel has a right to persecute the descendants of invaders, do Native Americans have a right to demand that all us white folks leave?

Israel is not prosecuting anyone. Right now almost 20% of the population of Israel is Arab. The majority of these arabs are citizens with all of the rights afforded them by citizenship. They are there because they want to and they stay because they want to.

It amazes me that most just blame Israel for whatever but ignore all of the atrocities perpetrated against the citizens of Israel during the last 61 years. The suicide bombers, the rockets, the threats of nuclear annihilation, etc. etc. etc. Who gets the blame for those?

Israel has a right to their God given land. They have a right to be recognized as a country and they have a right to live in peace without the constant threats and hate.