is there room in the Orthodox Church for liberals?

[FireDragon76]

Is there room in the Orthodox Church for social liberals?

I feel drawn to Orthodox worship and spirituality. I've read several books on Orthodoxy and been a catechumen off and on for several years at an OCA parish. I like Orthodoxy's theological tradition, particularly Alexander Schmemann, Georges Florovsky, and the Orthodox Church in America's approach. The problem is, the more Christian I become, the more liberal I become.

I'm not a culture warrior, and while I personally feel abortion is sinful, I have no particular belief about legislating it away. I struggled for a while with what the Bible and Church Tradition had to say, but finally after taking a long look I don't think homosexuality is necessarily sinful. I have friends in the LGBT community, and not to give away too many details of my personal life, these issues impact me personally (I have adult autism, and for a while was uncertain about my own sexual orientation- I now realize I am pansexual or bisexual and my sexuality is influenced alot by my autistic brain. I also have a different sense of myself as a male than other males- I feel sort of genderless or bigender sometimes). I'm not uninformed on these issues, I've read the pro's and con's, prayed about it alot, and I eventually came out on the liberal side of the homosexual question, even though I hang out in churches where most folks are fairly conservative about such things.

Currently I'm attending an Episcopalian church, but sometimes I visit the OCA parish and the priest there is relatively welcoming, even after discussing some of my concerns with him about my disagreements with what he said was the Church's teaching. I'm in a long term relationship and whatever church I choose to attend has to be something my partner can live with too- for economic and legal reasons at this moment we are looking to get a domestic partnership in the future, not legal marriage, and I haven't fully discussed this with the priest yet. Though she is a Christian, she has mental and physical disabilities and sometimes church is too much for her. She also has friendships in the LGBT community and feels more strongly about those issues than me.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

I think your best bet is to continue talking with your priest, build relationship there, and continue to turn to him for whatever you need spiritually. These are not uncomplicated issues you have brought up.

To give a simple answer to your question, yes, there is room in the Orthodox church for everyone. But the question of whether one can commune while actively and unrepentantly engaging in what the church identifies as sin is another matter. (This is a generalized statement, not you personally.) The church is not a courtroom for evil sinners to come and be judged guilty or innocent; it's a hospital for those of us who are dying from the sickness of sin to come and be made well. But that requires our cooperation.

 

[truthseeker32]

I have heard a few Catholics state "I am not conservative or liberal; I am Catholic." The idea behind this statement is that the Roman Catholic Church does not fit into modern ideological categories, but is rather its own set of ideologies that has existed much longer. I think these ideas can be applied also to Orthodoxy.

It is definitely an Orthodox teaching that marriage is the union of one man and one woman, and thus "gay marriage" is not a thing at all. While any sexual activity outside of marriage, including homosexual activity, is sinful, those individuals who experience same sex attraction are to be treated with the same respect and love as anyone else.

 

[Knee V]

Orthodoxy is for all people. There are views on all areas of the political spectrum that are right and wrong. The important thing is to learn to humble ourselves and not cling to those political views as if they were our god.

 

[Wesley1982]

Yes.

 

[SAT]

A straight answer to your question is No. Liberalism is like a cancer in the church you either follow biblical teaching, or you make up your own rules that is what liberalism is isn't it.
Sorry if this offends but just look at the mess the church is in, everyone wants their own personal bible, that is not their own copy but their own version, just pull any pages that offend, change the meaning because that is offensive to Frank, oh Jane doesn’t like what Paul has to say about women lets remove that, oh science said that stuff in Genesis is rubbish right that’s gone too, oh we only seem to have one page left, what does it say?....Jesus wept.

 

[Cappadocious]

Please keep coming

 

[gzt]

I think it's better to be a "bad" Orthodox who's trying and sticking with the ship than a "good" Orthodox who doesn't try. We're all on a long slow journey from heresy to truth.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not at my parish! It's Tea Party USA 'round that coffee hour! LOL....

 

[inconsequential]

A straight answer to your question is No. Liberalism is like a cancer in the church you either follow biblical teaching, or you make up your own rules that is what liberalism is isn't it.
Sorry if this offends but just look at the mess the church is in, everyone wants their own personal bible, that is not their own copy but their own version, just pull any pages that offend, change the meaning because that is offensive to Frank, oh Jane doesn’t like what Paul has to say about women lets remove that, oh science said that stuff in Genesis is rubbish right that’s gone too, oh we only seem to have one page left, what does it say?....Jesus wept.

I believe he was talking about liberalism of the political variety and in reference to the Orthodox Church.

 

[MariaRegina]

Not at my parish! It's Tea Party USA 'round that coffee hour! LOL....

Isn't coffee hour more like: Tea Party USA but please pass those organic biscuits, organic olives, organic grapes, and that fantastic butter and cheese from grass-fed cows and goats before that platter is empty!

At my parish, although people may be somewhat conservative, they are liberal environmentalists when it comes to what is on their plates. They do not vote along party lines either as they denounce both Republicans and Democrats for being in bed with that evil global monopoly Monsanto. Neither are they game to vote for any more stinking wars so that the Neo-Cons may play with their deadly toys.

So, being Orthodox implies a change in ethos: More concern for the environment, more open to preventative medicine, and less willing to engage in war, abortion, and the death penalty. Orthodox, therefore, are liberated from liberal and conservative mentalities.

 

[Mariya116]

Orthodoxy is for all people. There are views on all areas of the political spectrum that are right and wrong. The important thing is to learn to humble ourselves and not cling to those political views as if they were our god.

Pretty much. I have some liberal views, some conservative views, I have an opinion on and an interest in some issues and no opinion on or interest in others - and I'm a member of the Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes there is room in Orthodoxy for liberals. yes, the Church states that LGBTQA stuff is sinful, but no more or less sinful than the lust us straight folks face. Orthodoxy is here to heal all of man's brokenness, not just establish a set of rules that one can or cannot break (although there is a part of that). I know just as many Orthodox that are right wingers who love a guy like Rand Paul, as I do folks who campaigned for Barack Obama. personally, I am a libertarian leaning conservative and one of my favorite priests is a Michael Moore loving uber lib.

so yes, you can be liberal and be Orthodox.

 

[isshinwhat]

So, being Orthodox implies a change in ethos: More concern for the environment, more open to preventative medicine, and less willing to engage in war, abortion, and the death penalty. Orthodox, therefore, are liberated from liberal and conservative mentalities.

And that is very liberating...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I always thought (from what I studied) that Orthodoxy had a wide range of people in it with extensive political views - though nothing that violates scripture (i.e. being conservative in wanting strong military/smaller government and yet not wanting to be war happy or thinking it of no consequences when the poor/destitute in our land are harmed....or being liberal in wanting gays to be treated respectfully and yet not wanting gays to be married in churches and saying it's good to be gay...the variations go on).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And that is very liberating...

Indeed

 

[Gxg (G²)]

yes there is room in Orthodoxy for liberals. yes, the Church states that LGBTQA stuff is sinful, but no more or less sinful than the lust us straight folks face. Orthodoxy is here to heal all of man's brokenness, not just establish a set of rules that one can or cannot break (although there is a part of that). I know just as many Orthodox that are right wingers who love a guy like Rand Paul, as I do folks who campaigned for Barack Obama. personally, I am a libertarian leaning conservative and one of my favorite priests is a Michael Moore loving uber lib.

so yes, you can be liberal and be Orthodox.

I find it awesome when keeping up with others who are Orthodox and yet Radicals (i.e. Militants, Militant Pacifists like Howard Yoder or MLK, Socialists, leaning toward Gift-Economy or Anarchist communism, etc.) - and yet some of the most devout/humble people ever...

 

[E.C.]

Look, if the Church has room for a jerks (like me), thieves, adulterers, etc; than there's room a-plenty for the non-heterosexual crowd. The Church is a hospital and believe me when I say that we all have our illnesses that only she can help take care of.

People lust. So long as people have been in existence there has been lust. What direction that lust influence you towards is no greater or lesser than the direction it may influence others towards. I'll be blunt: I love women. I'm in my early 20s, in the military and live in a very stressful and mentally demanding environment. Combating lust is about as uphill a battle as one can get in my position. There are males who lust for other males and women who lust for other women. Am I better than them because I, a male, lust only after women? NO.
We are all sinners bearing this cross. It is a difficult one to bear. Some days it is bearable. Some (many) days it just plain sucks to bear it. But, we pray, we go to confession, etc; just like any other human being.

That said, the Orthodox Church does not view "gay marriage" as a thing, but man is broken and she is her to help.

 

[FireDragon76]

Look, if the Church has room for a jerks (like me), thieves, adulterers, etc; than there's room a-plenty for the non-heterosexual crowd. The Church is a hospital and believe me when I say that we all have our illnesses that only she can help take care of.

I think the priest at the Orthodox church in RL is (relatively) open-minded about gays, though he comes from a conservative Protestant background. To be honest what I've gotten from some Episcopalians around here is a lot scarier stuff. I became friends with a deacon here but unfortunately my views about gays makes some issues in our friendship ackward- I haven't even told him about my own issues with my orientation or gender identity, so sometimes I just bite my tongue. The Episcopal diocese is full of conservativess- they aren't really like alot of Orthodox Christians, more like Charismatics in some ways. Very different spirituality from what I find at the OCA church I go to.

My S.O. and I sort of stumbled into a relationship together. At the time I was going through a period of serious doubt in God, basicly felt alienated from the Orthodox Church and christianity in general, and stopped going to church. I'm not sure I'd choose to do this over again like this but I can't deny that I'm a Christian today due to her influence (she doesn't go to church much either now days but she does believe in God, and she's been attending church with me). It hurts sometimes that we can't just get married but there are a lot of issues we have to work through, and I'm not even sure she'ld want to get married in an Orthodox church, even if there were not these other barriers. So I realize my situation is not ideal.

I sense the Orthodox priest really thinks I have thoughtful questions and I make him think- he likes to read alot and he hosts a theology group where people get together and talk about theology. We've talked and alot of the folks that go to the group, converts, are still stuck in a "Protestant" mindset in many ways, they just found a new text to explain everything for them, only now its the Fathers and so on, so they can play around with even more texts and exegesis. Very intellectual and rational in their approach whereas I feel like I'm more interested in hearing ideas that inspire me and clarify a spiritual path for me, not just ideas that answer questions with more facts. So, even though the people are nice I think I'm on a different page from them. Most of them are Presbyterian in background and are socially conservative. Again, nice guys but I bite my tongue alot.

I really agree with the Orthodox approach that all theology should be doxology, somewhere in there, there should be something beautiful or appealing about it. I've come to the conclusion the Protestant approach to theology has too much baggage and much of the religious landscape of Protestantism is on spiritual life support, though there are some like Rowan Williams in the Anglican tradition I consider to be very good at theology (I consider his early work, "The Body's Grace" excellent and on par with Schmemann... it's too bad he had to basicly duck his past as Archbishop of Canterburry and suck up to some ridiculous rhetoric from certain quarters- like Africa).

 

[rusmeister]

One of the grandest political errors of our time is the assumption that there are two equal and opposite sides opposed to one another that most people fall into.

GK Chesterton; "The Well and the Shallows"
Speaking about the events leading up to the Spanish Civil War in the 1930's:

I preface these remarks by saying that I was for a long time a Liberal in the sense of belonging to the Liberal Party. I am still a Liberal; it is only the Liberal Party that has disappeared. I understood its ideal to be that of equal citizenship and personal freedom; and they are my own political ideals to this day [....]

[In Spain] Socialists suddenly jumped up and did exactly everything that the Fascists have been blamed for doing. They used bombs and guns and instruments of violence to prevent the fulfilment of the will of the people, or at least of the will of the Parliament. Having lost the game by the rules of democracy, they tried to win it after all entirely by the rules of war; in this case of Civil War. They tried to overthrow a pacific Parliament by a militarist coup d'état. In short, they behaved exactly like Mussolini; or rather they did the very worst that has ever been attributed to Mussolini; and without a rag of his theoretical excuse.

And what did Liberalism say? What did my dear old friends of liberty and peaceful citizenship say?

Naturally, I assumed on opening the paper that it would rally to the defence of Parliament and peaceful representative government and rebuke the attempt to make a minority dominant by mere military violence. Judge of my astonishment, when I found Liberals lamenting aloud over the unfortunate failure of these Socialistic Fascists to reverse the result of a General Election.

I had been a Liberal in the old Liberal days; we were not unacquainted with Tory and Unionist victories at the polls; we had often gone contentedly into Opposition. It had never been suggested that when Balfour or Baldwin constitutionally became Prime Ministers, all the Nonconformists should go out with guns and bayonets to reverse the popular vote; or the Leader of the Opposition begin to throw dynamite at the elected Leader of the House. The only inference was that Liberalism was only opposed to militarists when they were Fascists; and entirely approved of Fascists so long as they were Socialists.

Now that is a small and purely political point. But to me it was very awakening. It showed me quite clearly the fundamental truth of the modern world. And that is this: there are no Fascists; there are no Socialists; there are no Liberals; there are no Parliamentarians. There is the one supremely inspiring and irritating institution in the world; and there are its enemies. Its enemies are ready to be for violence or against violence, for liberty or against liberty, for representation or against representation; and even for peace or against peace.

It gave me an entirely new certainty, even in the practical and political sense, that I had chosen well.

There is no such thing as "a Liberal". You have to approach the Church as a human being.