Is Salvation By Works or Faith? How Do You Achieve Faith?

[Albion]

No, the issue goes back further than that apparently, perhaps to a misunderstanding on your part of how people are made just in the eyes of God

No, no. All you are saying there is that we disagree on whether it's works and faith together that bring salvation or if it's faith only. The issue (going back a few posts) was the misunderstanding of what is meant by "works." It is not the case that anything 'that takes work'--i.e. any action whatsoever--is what it meant by that word, regardless of which side of the issue one stands on.

But perhaps the best way to address this, since you brought it up, would be for you to give an example of someone you know that believes they must strive in some capacity to maintain justice and attain eternal life, working out their salvation together with He who works in them, which includes performing works of love prepared for them beforehand to do -if this fits your definition of "works righteousness". Because, if so, I've known thousands of this persuasion, and they are the least likely to be smugly assured of their salvation.

I'll give you a real example of the real problem. You've probably heard it voiced yourself. A poster says "Baptism is a "work" because you have to submit to having water poured on you...but that action can't save you."

The problem there is not solely faith vs works. It's that the speaker doesn't understand that "works" are good deeds that supposedly earn God's favor for being so Christlike. Or charitable. Or merciful. Or loving. Some people think that all of that earns points towards salvation. This is what is called "works righteousness."

But our friend "thecolorsblend," although a convert to Catholicism, completely misses that when he says something like "So even if you buy into sola fide, you're still doing something. It's an action. A work, one might say."

"Doing something" is not a "work" when it comes to this issue of salvation or faith vs works.

 

[tulipbee]

And, then also the damning to eternal torment? God is directly responsible for every action of man, and therefore for every one of the worst evils or atrocities ever committed in this world?

He may not be your boss but he is my boss and everyone else except you.

 

[toLiJC]

If salvation relies completely upon Jesus Christ then I can't do anything except just trust that I'm saved through Jesus Christ. However, if I continually sin then that means I don't know God after all and I'm not saved because I don't have any faith in Jesus Christ. So I must repent and turn away from my sin without God's help in order to know God. If that circumstance were true then it would seem that's by works. If the only way is Jesus Christ and I can't do anything but to accept God's grace then that is by faith. Why do I keep sinning though? Why can't I stop it? I've been reading the bible everyday, going to church twice a week, praying a lot. Asking the holy spirit to communicate the deepest parts of me to God by his power through Jesus Christ. I continue to willingly stumble because of my impulsive behavior but I am genuinely asking God for help. I managed to stop it on my own before but eventually my impulsive behavior takes over again and again. There's nothing I can do but to trust in Jesus and hope that he will forgive me for this. I feel so condemned when I read stuff about me not knowing the father because I continue to sin. "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1 John 3:6. I have been able to stop this habit for up to 3 or 4 months at a time and I felt pretty much the same as I do now. Because when I stop sinning on my own I feel like I'm getting to God by works and that you can't do according to Paul. I continue to willingly sin and ask God for help because I really do want to change. I just need the knowledge and the will to do it. It's times like this where I think if God really can't save everyone because of free will and sin. Then he just can't save me because of the type of personality I have. I'm impulsive, stubborn, easy to trick, lacking faith, insecure, lacking trust and all sorts of things that God hates. I can't help it that's who I am and I'm genuinely trying to change into the best person I can be. That's not enough though. It's so complicated! My thoughts are all over the place. If I truly knew God then it would be easy to stop sinning because of how much better it is not to sin. I haven't even tasted that place yet so how do I trust in what I can't see or don't know?

it is rather a matter of services/merits/deserts - the more you contribute to the overall salvation in the true Lord God, the more consecutive eternities you will be better saved (for)

Revelation 14:12-13 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.",

Revelation 22:3-12 "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book..... He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Blessings

 

[thecolorsblend]

Regeneration was already done before the earth existed. Your "more" means more work to save yourself when all else don't work

Well, Optimax was kind enough to add another condition for salvation. An action. A work, one might say.

Rom 10:9 tells us how to be saved.

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. KJV

Mmm, so it's not by faith alone then. You must confess with your mouth that He is Lord. That's an action. Interesting...

 

[Optimax]

Well, Optimax was kind enough to add another condition for salvation. An action. A work, one might say.

Mmm, so it's not by faith alone then. You must confess with your mouth that He is Lord. That's an action. Interesting...

First, "Optimax" did not say that. The Word of God said that. Optimax just repeated what the word says.

Jesus said "ye must be born again"(saved).

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. KJV

Paul explained how to be born again.

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV

James said that faith has works.

James 2:17
Even so faith , if it hath not works , is dead, being alone. KJV

The works James is referring to is not the "good works" most think that he is.

James is referring to the corresponding actions that accompany faith.

That is being a doer of the word and not a hearer only.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. KJV

 

[thecolorsblend]

First, "Optimax" did not say that. The Word of God said that. Optimax just repeated what the word says.

Jesus said "ye must be born again"(saved).

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. KJV

Paul explained how to be born again.

Nice try. But no, Our Lord explained how to be born again earlier in John 3.

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
- St. John 3:5 (DAR)

So there's baptism of water and of Spirit as necessities; "faith alone" isn't enough, clearly. Of course, "believe" is also a verb so even that is a work.

So let's see, one must confess with one's mouth and also be baptized. Both of these are verbs. Actions. Works. Golly, the list of things one must do to be enter the kingdom of God is starting to pile up here.

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV

I agree, salvation does not come by faith alone. There is a cooperative element to it and terms men must fulfill. Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

[fhansen]

He may not be your boss but he is my boss and everyone else except you.

Well, far from everyone else. And that God would not ever be my God-since heaven should be at least as bad as hell in that case.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nice try. But no, Our Lord explained how to be born again earlier in John 3.

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
- St. John 3:5 (DAR)

So there's baptism of water and of Spirit as necessities; "faith alone" isn't enough, clearly. Of course, "believe" is also a verb so even that is a work.

So let's see, one must confess with one's mouth and also be baptized. Both of these are verbs. Actions. Works. Golly, the list of things one must do to be enter the kingdom of God is starting to pile up here.

I agree, salvation does not come by faith alone. There is a cooperative element to it and terms men must fulfill. Thank you for agreeing with me.

You quoted John 3:5 as Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What is the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution?) translation? In the Greek the word "again" is not found in the verse. With it in as you quoted it conveys an entirely different meaning.

Here is how it is rendered in your New American Bible - 5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Wow, Protestants are quibbling over removing one word instead of adding one word. Points for defying expectations.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wow, Protestants are quibbling over removing one word instead of adding one word. Points for defying expectations.

And Catholics remain blissfully unconcerned about the accuracy of their Tradition as long as it conforms to current Tradition.

 

[tulipbee]

Well, far from everyone else. And that God would not ever be my God-since heaven should be at least as bad as hell in that case.

You may call think there multiples of gods but there's really only one God. The only God does the choosing according to his pleasure not yours.

 

[tulipbee]

And Catholics remain blissfully unconcerned about the accuracy of their Tradition as long as it conforms to current Tradition.

The current traditions failed a very long time ago. Noticing the epic failures, the Protestants took the bible and carried on.

 

[tulipbee]

You quoted John 3:5 as Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What is the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution?) translation? In the Greek the word "again" is not found in the verse. With it in as you quoted it conveys an entirely different meaning.

Here is how it is rendered in your New American Bible - 5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

God only regenerates once

 

[Wordkeeper]

There must be an analogy of the situation that describes what it involves:


A supreme king forms a family to share his joy. He gives them freedom to choose to follow Him or to go their own ways. If they follow Him, his plan has worked. If they go their own ways, it gives Him the opportunity to teach through example.


To make the plan work, one must be a blessing.


The king becomes a blessing by becoming the Garden, the Promised Land, the Kingdom, through which, by being residents of, the inhabitant, the abider, himself becomes a blessing.


Christ is the real Garden, the real Promised Land, the real Kingdom of God.


By being IN Christ, (the grace, the gift, the benefit of the new covenant), we become blessings.


Those who are IN Christ are those who are for Him.


The supreme King does not need a strong hand by His side to achieve His purposes. All He needs is to have them by His side. Not to assist, but to be saved from His judgment.


Faith is loyalty.


Does Paul show his loyalty by DOING good? No. Although he can. Christ, after all, did save him from his body of death. However, he does not show his loyalty by reaching perfection. He shows loyalty by agreeing: con/fess, with/speak. Having one voice/mind with God. Repent is, after all, a change of mind. From having his own view to having God's view.


God says His grace is sufficient. Paul being IN Christ, wanting the things Christ wants, having His words abide in him, having God's favor, is sufficient.


Salvation is not just going to heaven. Salvation is becoming what God intended you to become, a tree that bears good fruit, offers shade, is a blessing, by leading men to God, showing the Father:


John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”


John 5:19Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.


John 14: 7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.


8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


2 Corinthians 12:7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

 

[fhansen]

You may call think there multiples of gods but there's really only one God. The only God does the choosing according to his pleasure not yours.

Yes, but if the only God turned out to be an evil god, as you seem to say, then he wouldn't be worth following anyway.

 

[fhansen]

The current traditions failed a very long time ago. Noticing the epic failures, the Protestants took the bible and carried on.

Yes, and ended up in great degrees of disagreement over: baptismal regeneration, infant versus adult only/believers baptism, the real presence and the nature of the Eucharist in general, the role of free will in salvation, and all the numerous matters, some very significant, others less so, debated between Protestants right here on the Christian forums. Some Sola Scriptura adherents even deny the deity of Jesus, as Arius did centuries before, supported by Scripture as well.

 

[tulipbee]

Yes, but if the only God turned out to be an evil god, as you seem to say, then he wouldn't be worth following anyway.

One must know who God really is before one questions good to be evil

 

[fhansen]

One must know who God really is before one questions good to be evil

God instilled in man a sense of justice-we know good and evil when we see it, even in our fallen state where we sometimes compromise our morality or consciences nonetheless. And as Isaiah tells us in Is chap 5, "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." And to know God is to know that He can never be the author of sin/evil.

 

[Standing Up]

Here is how it is rendered in your New American Bible - 5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Interesting point.
Except a man be born of [out from within [ek]] water and of [of-em] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The "voice" is passive; it's something done to you, not something you do. The "mood" is subjunctive, the mood of possibility and potentiality.

 

[Emmy]

Dear nb408. Salvation is by Faith, followed by Love and Works. In Luke 10: 25-28: Jesus tells us clearly.
Jesus is asked: " Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers: " You have read Mark 22: 35-40?
Love God and love your neighbour? The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," give up all selfishness and start treating your neighbour as yourself.
Be loving and kind always, and treat all around you as you would love to be treated. God will see your loving efforts, and God will bless you. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive," ask for Love and Joy and thank God, then share all love and joy with your neighbour. ( neighbour is all you know and all you meet, friends and not friends) Keep doing this and you shall live. The Holy Spirit will help and guide you, and Jesus our Saviour will lead you all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. You might stumble and forget at times, but then ask God to forgive you, and carry on being kind and helpful, and always friendly.
A Christian`s weapon is Love, with love we can overcome all enmity and wrong behaviour. Love is our strong weapon, and love will lead us to victory always, and Satan and his followers will run away from all Love and compassion.
I say this with love, nb. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.