Is Salvation By Works or Faith? How Do You Achieve Faith?

[nb408]

If salvation relies completely upon Jesus Christ then I can't do anything except just trust that I'm saved through Jesus Christ. However, if I continually sin then that means I don't know God after all and I'm not saved because I don't have any faith in Jesus Christ. So I must repent and turn away from my sin without God's help in order to know God. If that circumstance were true then it would seem that's by works. If the only way is Jesus Christ and I can't do anything but to accept God's grace then that is by faith. Why do I keep sinning though? Why can't I stop it? I've been reading the bible everyday, going to church twice a week, praying a lot. Asking the holy spirit to communicate the deepest parts of me to God by his power through Jesus Christ. I continue to willingly stumble because of my impulsive behavior but I am genuinely asking God for help. I managed to stop it on my own before but eventually my impulsive behavior takes over again and again. There's nothing I can do but to trust in Jesus and hope that he will forgive me for this. I feel so condemned when I read stuff about me not knowing the father because I continue to sin. "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1 John 3:6. I have been able to stop this habit for up to 3 or 4 months at a time and I felt pretty much the same as I do now. Because when I stop sinning on my own I feel like I'm getting to God by works and that you can't do according to Paul. I continue to willingly sin and ask God for help because I really do want to change. I just need the knowledge and the will to do it. It's times like this where I think if God really can't save everyone because of free will and sin. Then he just can't save me because of the type of personality I have. I'm impulsive, stubborn, easy to trick, lacking faith, insecure, lacking trust and all sorts of things that God hates. I can't help it that's who I am and I'm genuinely trying to change into the best person I can be. That's not enough though. It's so complicated! My thoughts are all over the place. If I truly knew God then it would be easy to stop sinning because of how much better it is not to sin. I haven't even tasted that place yet so how do I trust in what I can't see or don't know?

 

[Steeno7]

If salvation relies completely upon Jesus Christ then I can't do anything except just trust in Him, and I'm saved through Jesus Christ.

Stop right there and you will have it. It really is that simple, and apparently for many, just that difficult. The rest is the process of sanctification that Christ works within you. And He will. He has promised that He will complete the work He has begun in you. Trust Him.

 

[Albion]

I agree with Steeno here, but I'd add that the OP goes on to say this:

"So I must repent and turn away from my sin without God's help in order to know God. If that circumstance were true then it would seem that's by works."

In this line we see two errors that color the entire issue for the writer--that we must do so strictly on our own, and that this amounts to "works" in a theological sense. Neither of those is correct.

 

[Steeno7]

I agree with Steeno here, but I'd add that the OP goes on to say this:

"So I must repent and turn away from my sin without God's help in order to know God. If that circumstance were true then it would seem that's by works."

In this line we see two errors that color the entire issue for the writer--that we must do so strictly on our own, and that this amounts to "works" in a theological sense. Neither of those is correct.

Well the rest is all flesh talk. Something that we all must learn, as Paul himself did, is that the only answer to our flesh is Jesus Christ (Romans 7:15-28). And even after many, many years, I am still learning that.

 

[BobRyan]

If salvation relies completely upon Jesus Christ then I can't do anything except just trust that I'm saved through Jesus Christ. However, if I continually sin then that means I don't know God after all and I'm not saved because I don't have any faith in Jesus Christ. So I must repent and turn away from my sin without God's help in order to know God. If that circumstance were true then it would seem that's by works. If the only way is Jesus Christ and I can't do anything but to accept God's grace then that is by faith. Why do I keep sinning though? Why can't I stop it?

Let us say that as a lost person you choose to accept Christ - then you are born again - and Christ then "flips the switch" in your brain and you physically can no longer play that video game, go to that web site, think "that" thought, retort in anger in "that" way, refuse to study your Bible, ignore prayer time, spend time contemplating fluff, listen to "that music", watch "that TV" and associate commercials, go to 'that movie', hang out "with that" crowd.. etc.

Because Christ had demon-possession-like-iron-lock on your brain.

Let's just say - that is how it worked.

Well then having once become a Christian - you would never sin again - unless Christ chose to sin as he "The only driver on-board" drives your body directly down the road of sin. And of course He would never do that.

I've been reading the bible everyday, going to church twice a week, praying a lot. Asking the holy spirit to communicate the deepest parts of me to God by his power through Jesus Christ. I continue to willingly stumble because of my impulsive behavior but I am genuinely asking God for help. I managed to stop it on my own before but eventually my impulsive behavior takes over again and again.

Consider that you always have free will choice - and when you choose to do something that is not an outright sin -- like watch that comedy program or family program, or sporting event, or.... but then they ADD that "commercial" with engaging and thought provoking images designed to get you thinking the wrong way... etc etc.

Think about you - there are things you can do in this life that few pastors would even complain about - that after an hour of watching or listening or playing .. the last thing on your mind is... "now I feel like spending an hour in prayer and Bible study".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[SeventyTimes7]

Salvation is a dynamic which depends on many factors but the last decision if you are saved or not belongs only to God.
Salvation dynamics depends on: the mercy you gave to others, if you lead people to God, if you observed the commandments of God and Jesus, if you had done good deeds, your faith, prayers, if you have forgiven other people, if you helped the poor, if you loved your enemy, etc..
But the scrutiny of our lives belongs to God and God alone.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If salvation relies completely upon Jesus Christ then I can't do anything except just trust that I'm saved through Jesus Christ. However, if I continually sin then that means I don't know God after all and I'm not saved because I don't have any faith in Jesus Christ. So I must repent and turn away from my sin without God's help in order to know God. If that circumstance were true then it would seem that's by works. If the only way is Jesus Christ and I can't do anything but to accept God's grace then that is by faith. Why do I keep sinning though? Why can't I stop it? I've been reading the bible everyday, going to church twice a week, praying a lot. Asking the holy spirit to communicate the deepest parts of me to God by his power through Jesus Christ. I continue to willingly stumble because of my impulsive behavior but I am genuinely asking God for help. I managed to stop it on my own before but eventually my impulsive behavior takes over again and again. There's nothing I can do but to trust in Jesus and hope that he will forgive me for this. I feel so condemned when I read stuff about me not knowing the father because I continue to sin. "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1 John 3:6. I have been able to stop this habit for up to 3 or 4 months at a time and I felt pretty much the same as I do now. Because when I stop sinning on my own I feel like I'm getting to God by works and that you can't do according to Paul. I continue to willingly sin and ask God for help because I really do want to change. I just need the knowledge and the will to do it. It's times like this where I think if God really can't save everyone because of free will and sin. Then he just can't save me because of the type of personality I have. I'm impulsive, stubborn, easy to trick, lacking faith, insecure, lacking trust and all sorts of things that God hates. I can't help it that's who I am and I'm genuinely trying to change into the best person I can be. That's not enough though. It's so complicated! My thoughts are all over the place. If I truly knew God then it would be easy to stop sinning because of how much better it is not to sin. I haven't even tasted that place yet so how do I trust in what I can't see or don't know?

I tend to look at it as being born again, we trust God, the love of God enters us and a new person is born within us, the old person dies though the sin living within our members uses our memories to create a faux identity etc.

Because the word that is commonly translated as faith also means trust, I tend to think of it as trusting, because trust and love are relational words, and God is love according to the bible.

Generally, in the beginning, the flesh will be stronger and more awake than the born again person that you've become, a lot of confusion and denial of what just took place is common. Generally, to understand it and perhaps control the phenomenon, the idea to pick up the bible read it and figure out the faith comes to a person .. don't worry, this is something that happens to everyone. The born again person that we are however grows by trusting God, not feeding and gratifying the body's desires such as being right, controlling your environment, and telling others what to do because of the pride that "being right" inspires. In Trusting God one allows room for others to grow in ways .. perhaps you didn't .

How this relates to works and faith is .. when works are done out of this body impulse as influenced by the sin living within the body as Paul elaborated on .. these are dead works .. they may take on a form of scriptural correctness, but the lack of trust in God is what kills it. In terms of salvation or the new life .. we really need to trust God. Questions such as how am I saved? are answered by the same question as can I lose my salvation? the answer is just trust Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and in trusting continually receive the Holy Spirit, be aware of your body's chemical tendencies such as the fight or flight syndrome and progress onward to Godliness.

 

[Steeno7]

Salvation is a dynamic which depends on many factors but the last decision if you are saved or not belongs only to God.
Salvation dynamics depends on: the mercy you gave to others, if you lead people to God, if you observed the commandments of God and Jesus, if you had done good deeds, your faith, prayers, if you have forgiven other people, if you helped the poor, if you loved your enemy, etc..
But the scrutiny of our lives belongs to God and God alone.

Wow, it sure is hard for us to save ourselves.

 

[SeventyTimes7]

Wow, it sure is hard for us to save ourselves.

Matthew 7:12-13
12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

Yes it is hard but only God knows which mercy and grace deserves each one, but we are called to do our best for to enter in the eternal life even if we are imperfect.

 

[bling]

If salvation relies completely upon Jesus Christ then I can't do anything except just trust that I'm saved through Jesus Christ. However, if I continually sin then that means I don't know God after all and I'm not saved because I don't have any faith in Jesus Christ. So I must repent and turn away from my sin without God's help in order to know God. If that circumstance were true then it would seem that's by works. If the only way is Jesus Christ and I can't do anything but to accept God's grace then that is by faith. Why do I keep sinning though? Why can't I stop it? I've been reading the bible everyday, going to church twice a week, praying a lot. Asking the holy spirit to communicate the deepest parts of me to God by his power through Jesus Christ. I continue to willingly stumble because of my impulsive behavior but I am genuinely asking God for help. I managed to stop it on my own before but eventually my impulsive behavior takes over again and again. There's nothing I can do but to trust in Jesus and hope that he will forgive me for this. I feel so condemned when I read stuff about me not knowing the father because I continue to sin. "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1 John 3:6. I have been able to stop this habit for up to 3 or 4 months at a time and I felt pretty much the same as I do now. Because when I stop sinning on my own I feel like I'm getting to God by works and that you can't do according to Paul. I continue to willingly sin and ask God for help because I really do want to change. I just need the knowledge and the will to do it. It's times like this where I think if God really can't save everyone because of free will and sin. Then he just can't save me because of the type of personality I have. I'm impulsive, stubborn, easy to trick, lacking faith, insecure, lacking trust and all sorts of things that God hates. I can't help it that's who I am and I'm genuinely trying to change into the best person I can be. That's not enough though. It's so complicated! My thoughts are all over the place. If I truly knew God then it would be easy to stop sinning because of how much better it is not to sin. I haven't even tasted that place yet so how do I trust in what I can't see or don't know?

All mature adults have the faith they need for salvation, but must direct that trust (faith) toward God.

Look at the prodigal son in (Luke 15), all he did for really selfish reasons (wanting to continuing to live and have some kind of a life) was to turn to the father with just being willing to accept the father’s charity.

It is not that you take some huge leap of faith for no reason, but you just have to come to your senses and realize you are in a pigsty. You deserve to be in that pigsty and if you’re a macho man you will take the punishment you deserve and die there.

If you are just willing to humbly accept God’s charity, He will shower you with gifts, so wimp out/give up /surrender.

 

[Optimax]

God has "dealt" to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:3

When the gospel message is heard faith "comes" or is set in motion.

 

[Tangible]

Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Wow, it sure is hard for us to save ourselves.

That may be one reason that the Bible teaches that we can't do it. Anyway, no one ever has.

 

[Steeno7]

Matthew 7:12-13
12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

Yes it is hard but only God knows which mercy and grace deserves each one, but we are called to do our best for to enter in the eternal life even if we are imperfect.

Perfection is the requirement, a perfect God can accept nothing less. "Doing your best" is a program for failure.

 

[Steeno7]

That may be one reason that the Bible teaches that we can't do it. Anyway, no one ever has.

And yet apparently, incredibly, some actually see "self-salvation" as a legitimate option. Mind boggling.

 

[fhansen]

And yet apparently, incredibly, some actually see "self-salvation" as a legitimate option. Mind boggling.

I doubt if many-if any- believe in "self-salvation". Some believe that we're meant to cooperate in the work of our salvation-because that's what God wants from us, and for us, even as salvation is only made possible by Him to begin with. Others believe that we're totally passive in our salvation, some are elected to it while others aren't, and it cannot be lost if once truly gained. Generally speaking the people who believe the latter number themselves among the elect.

 

[Albion]

I doubt if many-if any- believe in "self-salvation". Some believe that we're meant to cooperate in the work of our salvation-because that's what God wants from us, and for us, even as salvation is only made possible by Him to begin with. Others believe that we're totally passive in our salvation, some are elected to it while others aren't, and it cannot be lost if once truly gained. Generally speaking the people who believe the latter number themselves among the elect.

Well, I've yet to meet anyone who believes in works righteousness...and also considers himself to be among the damned for not having compiled enough good works.

 

[Steeno7]

I doubt if many-if any- believe in "self-salvation".

Apparently you missed the post I was responding to.

 

[fhansen]

Well, I've yet to meet anyone who believes in works righteousness...and also considers himself to be among the damned for not having compiled enough good works.

Those who believe that salvation is finally realized at the end of a life of continous cooperation with God in responding to grace, doing what He would have us do, after which He judges us by the way we lived-Matt 25:31-46 being an example-are much more likely to be working out their salvation in fear and trembling. And this is why Trent cautioned against "vain over-confidence" regarding salvation, as being opposed to humility.

 

[Albion]

Those who believe that salvation is finally realized at the end of a life of continous cooperation with God in responding to grace, doing what He would have us do, after which He judges us by the way we lived-Matt 25:31-46 being an example-are much more likely to be working out their salvation in fear and trembling.

So the issue is your misunderstanding of the meaning of that particular verse?