Is my deceased mother watching me?

[Anguspure]

But Scripture tells us that on two occassions--once when He was walking on the water and once following the resurrection--the disciples thought that Jesus was a ghost. That predates Augustine.

There is also the story of Saul and the "witch" of Endor who brought forth the spirit of Samuel (remembering of course that the story is about a King who has departed a long way from the guidance and law of his God) .

But what is a "ghost"? Notwithstanding the vaguaries of Bible translation that heavily reflect the theological interpretation of the translators, your understanding and the understanding of a 1st century Jewish person will certainly differ heavily on the same grounds.

 

[Archivist]

There is also the story of Saul and the "witch" of Endor who brought forth the spirit of Samuel (remembering of course that the story is about a King who has departed a long way from the guidance and law of his God) .

But what is a "ghost"? Notwithstanding the vaguaries of Bible translation that heavily reflect the theological interpretation of the translators, your understanding and the understanding of a 1st century Jewish person will certainly differ heavily on the same grounds.

I'm sure that my understanding of a ghost would differ from that of the disciples. I was simply pointing out that ghosts were represented on Scripture, meaning that the concept predates Augustine.

 

[Anguspure]

I'm sure that my understanding of a ghost would differ from that of the disciples. I was simply pointing out that ghosts were represented on Scripture, meaning that the concept predates Augustine.

Fair enough. My reading of the 1st century Jewish understanding of human life after death is that the orthodox definition of "ghost" (Greek: phantasma) is: φάντασμα phántasma; gen. phantásmatos, neut. noun from phantázō (5324), to make to appear. An apparition, a specter, a spirit, or a phantom.

Given that the expectation that the dead would not reappear until the final resurrection and that Jesus had alluded to an uncross-able chasm between the dead and the living in His parable about Lazarus the beggar, it would be fair to say that whatever the disciples thought they were seeing, it was not the disembodied spirit of a human.

This thinking is one of the evidences that make the story of the resurrection more compelling, and helps with the refutation of the later ideas that Jesus did not manifest physically in His post resurrection state, in that that the disciples had no parallel in Jewish understanding for a person to come back from the dead in this way.

 

[Deadworm]

Bethann,

Just think how your mother has been reacting to your habits, your untidy place, and your selection of friends she hardly approves of! She tries to get your attention, but her hand goes right through you and you can't seem to hear her yelling! So she constantly asks herself, "Where did I go wrong as a mother? What a failure I am!" She gets some satisfaction by successfully planting guilt in your unconscious during your dreams when you are in the right state for soul merger. But hey, don't believe me. Just wait till you pass over. After your Mom's initial loving embrace and greeting, you're gonna get an earful! Sigh! But set all that aside, forget about Mom for now, and just live your life YOUR WAY, not Mom's!!

Anguspure: "Given that the expectation that the dead would not reappear until the final resurrection..."

Decisively refuted in post77, which you obviously haven't read.
You need to follow the flow of the discussion, if you care about meaningful contribution.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just think how your mother has been reacting to your habits, your untidy place, and your selection of friends she hardly approves of! She tries to get your attention, but her hand goes right through you and you can't seem to hear her yelling! So she constantly asks herself, "Where did I go wrong as a mother? What a failure I am!"

Somehow this is not the impression I get from the idea of experiencing the joy of being with the communion of Saints who enjoy the presence of God ...

 

[Deadworm]

Somehow this is not the impression I get from the idea of experiencing the joy of being with the communion of Saints who enjoy the presence of God ...

Well, the NDE in (1) below is reminiscent of the parody above; and the genuineness of this encounter with mother is attested by Phyllis's healing miracle. The shared group dimension of (2) is reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances; and (3) repots a papal endorsement of investigations of this sort of encounter. So together with my post #77 which grounds such paranormal encounters biblically, I think there's an excellent chance that our deceased Mom can check in on us.

(1) I had just performed a wedding at my church in Buffalo, NY, and was now attending the reception at a country club. I happened to sit next to Phyllis, a rather aloof but attractive blonde doctor and medical researcher. She shared her 2 highly instructive NDEs with me. She had never believed in NDEs prior to her own experience. The first was triggered by a car accident. She found herself floating up to "a mall that really wasn't a mall. It was a mall composed of white light."

There she came upon a court area with several tables and a hidden orchestra playing beautiful music. Seated at one of the tables was her deceased mother. When Phyllis joined her, the Mom chided her, "You really need to grieve over my passing. Your inability to do so in hampering my progress over here!" This guilt trip made Phyllis very uncomfortable. She had always dealt with tragedy and disappointment by detaching from her emotions. Finally, she excused herself,"Well, I guess I'll try to get back into my body now."

A couple of years later, Phyllis was taken to the hospital for a serious operation. She didn't explicitly identify her illness, but she gave me the impression it was a woman's ailment like cervical cancer. Her illness triggered another NDE. She again found herself in the "mall of white light" at her mother's table in the court area. Her mother again lit into her," I told you your failure to grieve my passing is preventing my progress over here! Why haven't you done what I asked?"

The soothing orchestra music in the background actually grated on Phyllis's nerves. She hadn't expected this second confrontation. Upset, she again suggested that she should leave. But her mother retorted, "No, you're not ready to leave! You need to go with these 2 gentlemen." Two tall men in white robes appeared and led her to "an elevator that wasn't really an elevator. It was an elevator of white light." They ascended to what seemed like a spirit hospital. Some sort of "medical" procedure was performed on Dr. Phyllis, which she didn't understand. Then she was returned to her hospital bed in this world. The "medical" procedure had cured her and she was released from the hospital!

I never saw Phyllis again. Obviously, I was only dimly aware of the psychological baggage between her and her Mom. I have since often wondered if Phyllis was ever able to get in touch with her emotions and grieve her loss. Two intriguing inferences might be drawn from her NDEs: (1) After a loved one's death, our ongoing reactions or lack of same can affect our loved ones' progress on the other side. (2) Paranormal reports (e. g. in OBEs) of a mall-like meeting area and some sort of rehab center in Paradise just might be true.

(2) The quotation below is taken from "Lighted Passage (1950)," a book authored by Presbyterian minister, Howell Vincent, whose daughter Rae and her new husband Herbert were killed on their honeymoon in a car accident. The book mostly deals with his daughter Rae's life, and the ADC (After-Death Communicaton) recounted on p. 25 would hardly be expected from a Presbyterian minister. The ADC is reminiscent of the shared Resurrection appearances of Jesus in the Gospels. I recount only one of Rae's 2 ADCs:

"On at least two occasions this radiant mother (Nellie) had come to Rea in visible, tangible form and talked with her. In 1933, I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea, I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time three other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked about the room with Nellie (p. 25)."

The book was mailed to me by an agnostic friend, Roger, who works for a large Federal government agency. Roger in turn received the book from a co-worker who is a relative of Rev. Howell Vincent. Though he remains an agnostic, Roger's skepticism was shaken to the core by this book.

(3) POPE ENDORSES EVP RESEARCH ON COMMUNICATIONS FROM THE
DEAD
On Sept. 27, 1952, 2 Italian priests, Fathers Ernetti and Gemelli (a medical doctor) were in the Experimental Physics Lab at the Catholic University of Milan, investigating ways of filtering the taped sound of Gregorian Chants in order to enhance their accoustic purity. Prior to the invention of magnetic tape, tape recorder wires often broke and required painstaking repair. Exasperated by such breakages, Father Gemelli, as was his habit, impulsively called on his deceased Dad for help. When he restarted the machine, he heard not the expected Gregorian Chant, but his deceased Dad's voice: "Of course, I'll help you! I am always with you."

Pope Pius XII interviewed the 2 priests about this deceased Dad's communication and exclaimed that the use of electronic devices to capture the voices of the dead might initiate "a new scientific study for confirming faith in the afterlife."
Source: David Fontana, "Is There an Afterlife: A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence," p. 365

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well, the NDE in (1) below is reminiscent of the parody above; and the genuineness of this encounter with mother is attested by Phyllis's healing miracle. The shared group dimension of (2) is reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances; and (3) repots a papal endorsement of investigations of this sort of encounter. So together with my post #77 which grounds such paranormal encounters biblically, I think there's an excellent chance that our deceased Mom can check in on us.

I never said it wasn't possible for those who have died to be aware of what goes on in our lives, if God wills.

I do however think the image of a poor suffering mother bemoaning her poor parenting between episodes of trying to slap an erring daughter silly, but being unable to do so because her hands are too nebulous - is frankly ridiculous. It is also unkind, given the questions put forth by the OP.

Tbh, I don't put a lot of stock in the details of NDEs. There are all kinds of them out there, which point to all sorts of strange theology. It's difficult to decide who to trust when considering the experience is usually related at least second-hand, the person who experienced it might not be trustworthy either, and there is always the possibility of demonic deception. But if one looks at the full body of NDEs, many suggest contradictory positions.

And with all due respect, it doesn't matter to me what any of the Popes endorse either.

Also, your particular related NDE, claiming that souls in the afterlife can be hindered by the actions of those still living doesn't ring particularly true to me either. In essence that gives one person the power to hold hostage the spiritual destiny of another.

But - I never said it wasn't possible for those who have died to be aware of what happens in our lives, and it is possible in rare cases that one might even be visited by someone who has died. However, we treat these visitations with extreme skepticism, since they are more often cases of demonic attempts at deception than truly holy visitations.

(1) I had just performed a wedding at my church in Buffalo, NY, and was now attending the reception at a country club. I happened to sit next to Phyllis, a rather aloof but attractive blonde doctor and medical researcher. She shared her 2 highly instructive NDEs with me. She had never believed in NDEs prior to her own experience. The first was triggered by a car accident. She found herself floating up to "a mall that really wasn't a mall. It was a mall composed of white light."

There she came upon a court area with several tables and a hidden orchestra playing beautiful music. Seated at one of the tables was her deceased mother. When Phyllis joined her, the Mom chided her, "You really need to grieve over my passing. Your inability to do so in hampering my progress over here!" This guilt trip made Phyllis very uncomfortable. She had always dealt with tragedy and disappointment by detaching from her emotions. Finally, she excused herself,"Well, I guess I'll try to get back into my body now."

A couple of years later, Phyllis was taken to the hospital for a serious operation. She didn't explicitly identify her illness, but she gave me the impression it was a woman's ailment like cervical cancer. Her illness triggered another NDE. She again found herself in the "mall of white light" at her mother's table in the court area. Her mother again lit into her," I told you your failure to grieve my passing is preventing my progress over here! Why haven't you done what I asked?"

The soothing orchestra music in the background actually grated on Phyllis's nerves. She hadn't expected this second confrontation. Upset, she again suggested that she should leave. But her mother retorted, "No, you're not ready to leave! You need to go with these 2 gentlemen." Two tall men in white robes appeared and led her to "an elevator that wasn't really an elevator. It was an elevator of white light." They ascended to what seemed like a spirit hospital. Some sort of "medical" procedure was performed on Dr. Phyllis, which she didn't understand. Then she was returned to her hospital bed in this world. The "medical" procedure had cured her and she was released from the hospital!

I never saw Phyllis again. Obviously, I was only dimly aware of the psychological baggage between her and her Mom. I have since often wondered if Phyllis was ever able to get in touch with her emotions and grieve her loss. Two intriguing inferences might be drawn from her NDEs: (1) After a loved one's death, our ongoing reactions or lack of same can affect our loved ones' progress on the other side. (2) Paranormal reports (e. g. in OBEs) of a mall-like meeting area and some sort of rehab center in Paradise just might be true.

(2) The quotation below is taken from "Lighted Passage (1950)," a book authored by Presbyterian minister, Howell Vincent, whose daughter Rae and her new husband Herbert were killed on their honeymoon in a car accident. The book mostly deals with his daughter Rae's life, and the ADC (After-Death Communicaton) recounted on p. 25 would hardly be expected from a Presbyterian minister. The ADC is reminiscent of the shared Resurrection appearances of Jesus in the Gospels. I recount only one of Rae's 2 ADCs:

"On at least two occasions this radiant mother (Nellie) had come to Rea in visible, tangible form and talked with her. In 1933, I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea, I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time three other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked about the room with Nellie (p. 25)."

The book was mailed to me by an agnostic friend, Roger, who works for a large Federal government agency. Roger in turn received the book from a co-worker who is a relative of Rev. Howell Vincent. Though he remains an agnostic, Roger's skepticism was shaken to the core by this book.

(3) POPE ENDORSES EVP RESEARCH ON COMMUNICATIONS FROM THE
DEAD
On Sept. 27, 1952, 2 Italian priests, Fathers Ernetti and Gemelli (a medical doctor) were in the Experimental Physics Lab at the Catholic University of Milan, investigating ways of filtering the taped sound of Gregorian Chants in order to enhance their accoustic purity. Prior to the invention of magnetic tape, tape recorder wires often broke and required painstaking repair. Exasperated by such breakages, Father Gemelli, as was his habit, impulsively called on his deceased Dad for help. When he restarted the machine, he heard not the expected Gregorian Chant, but his deceased Dad's voice: "Of course, I'll help you! I am always with you."

Pope Pius XII interviewed the 2 priests about this deceased Dad's communication and exclaimed that the use of electronic devices to capture the voices of the dead might initiate "a new scientific study for confirming faith in the afterlife."
Source: David Fontana, "Is There an Afterlife: A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence," p. 365

 

[Anguspure]

Anguspure: "Given that the expectation that the dead would not reappear until the final resurrection..."

Decisively refuted in post77, which you obviously haven't read.

I don't find any of the arguments in thread 77 to be decisively refuting. See post 83. If any of the biblical apparations appear to be human from the translation in use, it is either because the story relates the opinions of men without endorsing them or the translation itself refelcts the theological opinions of the translators.

 

[Deadworm]

Anastasia: "I do however think the image of a poor suffering mother bemoaning her poor parenting between episodes of trying to slap an erring daughter silly, but being unable to do so because her hands are too nebulous - is frankly ridiculous. It is also unkind, given the questions put forth by the OP."

Your reply is a tad disingenuous, given that I admitted it was a parody. I recently used a parody style to convert a Jewish woman who gave American bandstand host, Dick Clark, his start towards fame. How many people are converted to Christ by your straight arrow approach?

"Also, your particular related NDE, claiming that souls in the afterlife can be hindered by the actions of those still living doesn't ring particularly true to me either."

A tad disingenuous again! You completely ignore the miraculous healing that provides this NDE with impressive verification! Oh, and so is your resort to the standard ploy of the closed-minded to play the demonic card for verifications that clash with your biases. I challenge you to read through all my posts and videos on my NDE and ADC thread and see if you still retain your skepticism. The collective impact of these testimonies is far superior to the evidence for Christ's resurrection and, indeed, provides (in the case of the shared cases) powerful evidence for it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Anastasia: "I do however think the image of a poor suffering mother bemoaning her poor parenting between episodes of trying to slap an erring daughter silly, but being unable to do so because her hands are too nebulous - is frankly ridiculous. It is also unkind, given the questions put forth by the OP."

Your reply is a tad disingenuous, given that I admitted it was a parody. I recently used a parody style to convert a Jewish woman who gave American bandstand host, Dick Clark, his start towards fame. How many people are converted to Christ by your straight arrow approach?

You admitted it was a parody to me, but not to the OP when you posted it. Yes, such tactics can be useful at times, but seeing as how we are limited to words on a screen with no context, no face-to-face connection, and you know nothing of the maturity, emotional state, or anything else of the OP - well, I still believe it risks unkindness.

The OP was seeking reassurance, not demonstrating a need for conversion.

"Also, your particular related NDE, claiming that souls in the afterlife can be hindered by the actions of those still living doesn't ring particularly true to me either."

A tad disingenuous again! You completely ignore the miraculous healing that provides this NDE with impressive verification! Oh, and so is your resort to the standard ploy of the closed-minded to play the demonic card for verifications that clash with your biases. I challenge you to read through all my posts and videos on my NDE and ADC thread and see if you still retain your skepticism. The collective impact of these testimonies is far superior to the evidence for Christ's resurrection and, indeed, provides (in the case of the shared cases) powerful evidence for it.

I've read the posts in this thread. I think you misunderstand me. As I said, I do not doubt that those who have reposed can have knowledge or even visit. I'm Orthodox, LOL. And our Tradition has probably a longer history than any other of knowledge of both holy and demonic visitation, and how to deal with them, and why, and so on. I don't say this to be bragging - I didn't gather the wisdom. But there is a great deal of established knowledge. If this is a sort of hobby of yours, you might be interested. As far as NDEs, I'm not ignorant of those either. I have two family members and a very close friend who have experienced physical death and been resuscitated.

But surely, if you have read at all widely, you know that there those who report NDEs that completely contradict Christian beliefs or put forth beliefs that widely contradict one another? I'm not saying every NDE is false or demonic, but I am saying that as a body, they represent unreliable information. They can't all be accepted. So no matter what, you're drawing a line somewhere.

I'm really not interested in debate. I apologize if you were offended at my post. To be honest, I was surprised a pastor would reply as you did, and I meant to offer the OP a different perspective.

 

[Blade]

Hello. I was reading a Facebook story about a woman who almost died and claims to have seen her father with wings saying he was always with her and waiting for her when it was time. Immediately I thought of my poor dead mother with wings watching my sinful life. I know the verse about all tears being wiped away but that is after the end of the world... right? I am a baby Christian and am confused and mortified.

No that is not written. A great cloud of witnesses ..that is written. But.. what is written about what gets in to heaven and what does not? SIN! So no.. they do not see they are not by your side.. if we know Christ we die we never taste death.. we go right to be with the Father.. JESUS holy Spirit, angels.. with us.. and other darkness. Worship for one.. has wings.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Hello. I was reading a Facebook story about a woman who almost died and claims to have seen her father with wings saying he was always with her and waiting for her when it was time. Immediately I thought of my poor dead mother with wings watching my sinful life. I know the verse about all tears being wiped away but that is after the end of the world... right? I am a baby Christian and am confused and mortified.

I remember when I first got saved it was as if the roof had been blown off of the building. I did not understand at the time. Now I know that Angels and all of heaven were watching the event. Kat Kerr talks about portals that connect us with Heaven. So if a new baby is born or there is good news they know about our lives in Heaven. They all join in and celebrate and rejoice. Jesus talks about our treasures in Heaven. We will receive many rewards in Heaven for the work we do here on earth. Not that we deserve anything because of what Jesus did for us when HE went to Calvary.

 

[joshua 1 9]

No one has seen Heaven and returned to this life.

We are living in the time that Joel talked about: "this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: - In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." Acts 2:17

People do not actually need to go to Heaven to dream dreams or have visions.

 

[Frisky Wren]

We are living in the time that Joel talked about: "this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: - In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." Acts 2:17

People do not actually need to go to Heaven to dream dreams or have visions.

However, I would say that that visions are not the same as dying and thinking you've gone to Heaven.

 

[joshua 1 9]

However, I would say that that visions are not the same as dying and thinking you've gone to Heaven.

I am of the understanding that if you want to actually go to Heaven then you have to have a means of transportation and you use the wormhole system in the universe to get there.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am of the understanding that if you want to actually go to Heaven then you have to have a means of transportation and you use the wormhole system in the universe to get there.

There's a quicker means ... But perhaps not as sure as to destination, especially if one enters into it on one's own.

 

[Deadworm]

Anastasia,

. When I cut through all your pious rhetoric, two inferences seem inescapable:
(1) You haven't carefully considered my biblical evidence in post #77 for the dead monitoring and interacting with the living. As s new Christian, Bethann needs to learn about the Apostles' Creed amd its doctrine of the Communion of Saints as well as related phenomena, but needs to lighten up in her spiritual quest to dampen down unnecessary fears that inhibit growth. More importantly, she needs to learn the lessons of NDE Past Life Reviews, which would be excruciatingly painful ordeals, were it not for the loving, even humorous Presence that guides them through it. She needs to conduct her quest in a grace-based way and in a childlike holy boldness that doesn't take herself too seriously. We would all be appalled at the thought that others could know everything about who we are and what we think when no one is looking! Hence, my parody.

(2) You are tpo closed-minded to accept my challenge to read all my NDE and ADC thread and watch its videos, which make this phenomena the most compelling evidence available for God and an afterlife. That thread will be developed far more extensively in a way that unfolds deep spiritual implications. How can you know NDEs and ADCs have nothing important to teach you, if you refuse to investigate the evidence? Do you really believe your Orthodox heritage gives you all the answers?

 

[Frisky Wren]

I am of the understanding that if you want to actually go to Heaven then you have to have a means of transportation and you use the wormhole system in the universe to get there.

Sounds like something excerpted from the Neil deGrasse Tyson , Cosmos, show.

Do you have scripture to back it up? I love that show.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Anastasia,

. When I cut through all your pious rhetoric, two inferences seem inescapable:
(1) You haven't carefully considered my biblical evidence in post #77 for the dead monitoring and interacting with the living. As s new Christian, Bethann needs to learn about the Apostles' Creed amd its doctrine of the Communion of Saints as well as related phenomena, but needs to lighten up in her spiritual quest to dampen down unnecessary fears that inhibit growth. More importantly, she needs to learn the lessons of NDE Past Life Reviews, which would be excruciatingly painful ordeals, were it not for the loving, even humorous Presence that guides them through it. She needs to conduct her quest in a grace-based way and in a childlike holy boldness that doesn't take herself too seriously. We would all be appalled at the thought that others could know everything about who we are and what we think when no one is looking! Hence, my parody.

(2) You are tpo closed-minded to accept my challenge to read all my NDE and ADC thread and watch its videos, which make this phenomena the most compelling evidence available for God and an afterlife. That thread will be developed far more extensively in a way that unfolds deep spiritual implications. How can you know NDEs and ADCs have nothing important to teach you, if you refuse to investigate the evidence? Do you really believe your Orthodox heritage gives you all the answers?

Sigh ....

I'm afraid you misunderstand me.

We perhaps don't even disagree as much as you seem to think we do, but you don't seem to be reading that part of my posts.

I'm not going to read your thread and watch all your videos - not because I'm close-minded and refuse to investigate the evidence. The fact is - and if this offends you, then I am sorry - but it just is not that important to me. I believe I DO have all the answers I actually need regarding such phenomenon in order to carry out my day-to-day spiritual life and progress, for this time. I would say it's actually a bit unhealthy to focus too much on something that can be so difficult to accurately discern. We know a certain amount about the afterlife, but other things we do not know. And that's ok.

My life and days and spiritual pursuits are quite full, thank you. There ARE things that benefit me to pursue. NDEs just don't happen to be one of them.

And once again, I DO believe that the reposed in Christ can be made aware of what is happening in our lives and it is possible even that they might visit. I just believe that a certain amount of discernment is appropriate.

I really don't think we have much more to say to each other on this topic. You don't seem to be reading what I am saying, and you seem to want to draw conclusions about my character and motivation. That's ok ... insults can be good for the soul in a sense. But I don't think we are getting anywhere here. You really don't seem to be acknowledging what I am saying.

God be with you.

 

[ScottA]

Hello. I was reading a Facebook story about a woman who almost died and claims to have seen her father with wings saying he was always with her and waiting for her when it was time. Immediately I thought of my poor dead mother with wings watching my sinful life. I know the verse about all tears being wiped away but that is after the end of the world... right? I am a baby Christian and am confused and mortified.

No, we all live in our own time. But because God and the hereafter is eternal and without time, the transition from each of our different times...has us arriving in eternity simultaneously.