Is God a liar?

BobRyan

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Adam and Eve were created as adults.
At first sight one would have assumed that they experienced a childhood.
A missing belly button might have indicated otherwise.
That argument has been used in support of the young but seemingly old Earth.

That is true.

And tectonic plates need a certain amount of heat due to radioactive decay so that as the plates move there is a greenhouse gas canopy holding in heat. Mars has no plate movement and you see where that gets them. :)


the bottom line is - non of the atheist evolutionist have ever "made a living planet" so they have no clue what is "needed" to get one off and running. No worries - they can always "tell stories" and claim that God was "lying" in the Bible.

"Those who CAN - DO those who can't -- make up ever-winding, ever-twisting-and-turning stories".

The only evolutionary "Fact" that they have is that their "stories evolve over time". That form of evolution - is irrefutably demonstrated time and time again.
 
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BobRyan

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There are no Capital/lower case distinctions in Hebrew. Earth is just earth. You have to go by context. In Genesis verse 1, earth is contrasted with the heavens, so that would be the planet. In verse 10, earth is contrasted with the seas, so that would be the continents.

It really is a better idea not to try to make the Big Bang fit in somewhere within the six day Creation story, other than Genesis 1:1. Nothing preceded the Big Bang. NOTHING.

It seems I don't often agree with OH - but on that one post - I do agree.

Well... ok -- and I agree with this one.

He made adam BEFORE any other living creature? I give up. You believe neither science NOR Genesis.

And... ok well I agree with this one too

Genesis 1:1 says God created the earth. That's on the first day. Please quote where it says God created the earth on any other day.

So you are saying that God created dry land, grass, fruit trees... on the third day, but there was no earth?? Reallllyy??????

So God created all the sea animals and birds before he created the earth at the end of the fifth day??? Reeeeallly??????

And I agree with all of her posts along that same line..

But --- "other than that".
 
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BobRyan

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There are two contradictory chronologies in Gen. 1 and 2, Open Heart. In Gen.1, God first created the animals then man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then the animals, then woman.

A speculative assertion already proven to be false.

In Gen 1 we have a time-boxed chronological sequence, in Gen 2 we do not have any chronology at all. There is no time set for the events - they are simply an expansion on details already presented in chapter 1. (and obviously there were 'no chapters' in the original text).

This follows the same pattern as Gen 1:1 summary - followed by Gen 1:2 - 2:4 "details" that is then followed by Gen 2:5-end "more details" on the garden, the tree of life, tree of knowledge of good and evil, the fact that they did not have rain, Adam created before Eve - and marriage.
 
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Open Heart

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There are two contradictory chronologies in Gen. 1 and 2, Open Heart. In Gen.1, God first created the animals then man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then the animals, then woman.
I am aware there are two different creation stories. I do not believe the Genesis accounts are historical.
 
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BobRyan

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Hoghead1 said:
There are two contradictory chronologies in Gen. 1 and 2, Open Heart. In Gen.1, God first created the animals then man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then the animals, then woman.

I am aware there are two different creation stories. I do not believe the Genesis accounts are historical.

Now that is a bit of good news for you hh1.

You will get a lot of agreement from Catholics here hoghead1. You may want to take that into consideration. That is one group that you do not have to differ with when you side with the atheists in opposition to the Genesis account being trustworthy reliable true - accurate etc.

This is an opportunity for you to build some bridges with Christian posters.
 
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BobRyan

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Indeed -- rather than seeing the Bible as God's autobiography (as too many Christians do, IMO), it should be seen as a historical record of a people trying (and often falling short) to understand the "God" experience they believed was revealed to them.

We see the people in the Bible fail time and again -- and it is from that stock that the authors came from... dare we call them infallible?

That is exactly what we expect from atheists and agnostics.

See it all the time.

Hence the OP for which that agnostic author's post was a response.

Here's my problem, I "believe in" evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!
 
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Radrook

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There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.
Below are the explanations for what appears to be a discrepancy but which turns out to be a poor translation of the original words.

Part of the problem understanding this passage is because of the poor choice of English words in the common translations. The Hebrew word erets can be translated as "earth" (meaning global) or "land" (referring to a local geographical area). In the Old Testament, erets almost always refers to local geography and not the planet as a whole. We need to examine the context to determine whether erets refers to the entire earth or only a portion of it.

In contrast to Genesis one, there are no indications that the text is referring to global creation. In fact, Genesis 2 begins with God planting a garden8 in a place called Eden, whose location is described in the text that follows
Part of the confusion results from our English translations, which use the term "earth" when the Hebrew would better be translated "land."

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/genesis2.html



And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.

The NIV has a subtly different rendition.

Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them.

The NIV suggests a different way of viewing the first two chapters of Genesis. Genesis 2 does not suggest a chronology. That is why the NIV suggests using the style “the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the fields.” Therefore, the animals being brought to Adam had already been made and were not being brought to him immediately after their creation. Interestingly, Tyndale agrees with the NIV—and Tyndale’s translation predates the KJV.

The Lord God had made of the earth all manner of beasts of the field and all manner fowls of the air.

Tyndale and the NIV are correct on this verse because the verb in the sentence can be translated as pluperfect rather than perfect. The pluperfect tense can be considered as the past of the past—that is to say, in a narration set in the past, the event to which the narration refers is already further in the past. Once the pluperfect is taken into account, the perceived contradiction completely disappears.


https://answersingenesis.org/contradictions-in-the-bible/two-creation-accounts/
 
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BobRyan

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So you hear inanimate objects speaking to you?

If you read Genesis 1 you will notice something interesting. EVERYTHING that was created was in its mature state. Birds were created in flocks. Oceans became teeming with fish immediately. Trees bearing fruit pre-dated the sun. Adam could walk and talk immediately. There is NOT ONE SINGLE ITEM in creation that needed even a few thousand years to be in its ready state. You say that scientists "hear the voice of the earth." Rubbish! Science is the study of the physical world around us. It takes what is know and extrapolates into the unknown and sometimes unknowable. We see things in their mature state and assume age; like a tall oak tree that we presume must be 100 years old. Science can't account for the fact that God could simply will a forest full of them and they would exist.

God TOLD US how old the world is, how He created it, WHY He created it, why He will destroy it, and why we have an eternal destiny. You're listening to the wrong voices.

thanks for sharing that!
 
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BobRyan

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It should at least call into question whether we've understood God rightly.

That's an "old one"

And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?

Originally Posted by BobRyan =========================================
One leading Hebrew scholar is James Barr, Professor of Hebrew Bible at Vanderbilt University and former Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University in England. Although he does not believe in the historicity of Genesis 1, Dr. Barr does agree that the writer's intent was to narrate the actual history of primeval creation. Others also agree with him.

"Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; . . . Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know. "

James Barr, letter to David Watson, 1984.


 
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Lepanto

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2. The earth has a plethora of overwhelming evidence i.e. that it is ancient: radiometric dating, ice layering, meteor crators, continental drift, Y-chromosomal ancestry, seeing starlight that has taken billions of years to reach us, and so much more.

What do you mean by "overwhelming evidence" ???
Theory of evolution is still a theory in crisis - http://www.discoveryinstitutepress.com/book/evolution/
 
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Papias

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What do you mean by "overwhelming evidence" ???
Theory of evolution is still a theory in crisis -

Lepanto,

There are many lines of evidence that have confirmed evolution. That's why evolution is so strongly supported by our Catholic church. These include:
  1. Clear statements from the last three Popes (Francis, Benedict, JPII) in support of Evolution over Creationism.
  2. Humani Generis, an official papal encyclical by Pope Pious XII which allows evolution.
  3. Interpretation of Humani Generis by Pope John Paul II, just in case anyone was unclear that Humani Generis allows for evolution.
  4. The fact that evolution is openly taught by Catholic teachers to Catholic students in Catholic Universities and Schools. With our hundreds of Catholic schools, this means that if someone learns evolution anywhere in the world, they are more likely to have learned it from our mother church than from anyone else.
  5. Confirmation of open support of evolution by the Vatican in a commissioned report chaired by Pope Emeritus Benedict, saying evolution is "virtually certain", (link above).
  6. Many of the most outspoken evolution supporters are Catholic, such as Ken Miller, Dr. Ayayla, etc.
Note that the list includes at least three popes, an official encyclical, a Vatican commission report, and the actions of thousands of Catholic officials doing their jobs, right now. (from before)

That's why Pope Benedict called evolution "virtually certain":

While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution. Fromhttp://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/p80.htm

Do you disagree with our church on the reality of evolution? If so, why do you think the Popes are so clearly in support of evolution, as well as the rest of the Vatican, our whole Catholic educational system, and more?

In Christ Jesus-
Papias

 
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Aman777

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Lepanto,

There are many lines of evidence that have confirmed evolution. That's why evolution is so strongly supported by our Catholic church. These include:
  1. Clear statements from the last three Popes (Francis, Benedict, JPII) in support of Evolution over Creationism.
  2. Humani Generis, an official papal encyclical by Pope Pious XII which allows evolution.
  3. Interpretation of Humani Generis by Pope John Paul II, just in case anyone was unclear that Humani Generis allows for evolution.
  4. The fact that evolution is openly taught by Catholic teachers to Catholic students in Catholic Universities and Schools. With our hundreds of Catholic schools, this means that if someone learns evolution anywhere in the world, they are more likely to have learned it from our mother church than from anyone else.
  5. Confirmation of open support of evolution by the Vatican in a commissioned report chaired by Pope Emeritus Benedict, saying evolution is "virtually certain", (link above).
  6. Many of the most outspoken evolution supporters are Catholic, such as Ken Miller, Dr. Ayayla, etc.
Note that the list includes at least three popes, an official encyclical, a Vatican commission report, and the actions of thousands of Catholic officials doing their jobs, right now. (from before)

That's why Pope Benedict called evolution "virtually certain":

While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution. Fromhttp://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/p80.htm

Do you disagree with our church on the reality of evolution? If so, why do you think the Popes are so clearly in support of evolution, as well as the rest of the Vatican, our whole Catholic educational system, and more?

In Christ Jesus-
Papias

The Pope and all the other Catholics have been brainwashed. They left themselves open to such by including the Traditions of ancient men into their Religion. God hid His details of the Creation in the FUTURE discoveries of Science insuring that only by Faith could one be saved. In these last days, His scientific and historic Truth is being discovered exactly as He told Daniel:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
 
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farout

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All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...

Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?

What do you believe?


I think you are treading on thin ice asking such a question!
 
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farout

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Let me give my own answer to my question, and perhaps that will clear things up a bit.

1. God is not a liar. "God is not a man that he should lie." Numbers 23:19
2. The earth has a plethora of overwhelming evidence i.e. that it is ancient: radiometric dating, ice layering, meteor crators, continental drift, Y-chromosomal ancestry, seeing starlight that has taken billions of years to reach us, and so much more. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation
3. If the earth were young, it would mean that God created it with all this "evidence" in tow, thus creating lies ....
THEREFORE
4. Young Earth Creationism cannot be true because it makes God a liar.


Sadly you truly lack the knowledge or want to know the truth. I think you are very wrong. that's my opinion, just as you have yours. I
 
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Hoghead1

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Sorry, Radrook. That doesn't work. I am including my rundown on teh contradictions. If yu take a look at it, you will see why that solution does not work.





When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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