Is God a liar?

Hoghead1

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I realize that, Open Heart. However, I am not about to limit my speculations to just what science or Scripture talks about. That is too limited of an approach for me. I am interested in speculative metaphysics. And while there is considerable guess work here, on my part, you have to admit that I do provide a solid rationale.
 
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Open Heart

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The Creation ingredients, the air, dust and water which were created before the first Day, were brought into the physical world, but the dust was without form and without form, there is NO Planet Earth. Adam's Earth was made the 3rd Day. Gen 1:10

Our Cosmos was made some 13.8 Billion years ago, in man's time but 3 Days ago in God's time.
Since it was some 9.2 Billions of years AFTER the Big Bang BEFORE our Earth was first formed, which was only 4.6 Billion years ago, Planet Earth is dated as coming into being at the end of the 5th Day, in God's time. Amen?
Genesis 1:1 says God created the earth. That's on the first day. Please quote where it says God created the earth on any other day.

So you are saying that God created dry land, grass, fruit trees... on the third day, but there was no earth?? Reallllyy??????

So God created all the sea animals and birds before he created the earth at the end of the fifth day??? Reeeeallly??????
 
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Aman777

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Genesis 1:1 says God created the earth. That's on the first day. Please quote where it says God created the earth on any other day.

So you are saying that God created dry land, grass, fruit trees... on the third day, but there was no earth?? Reallllyy??????

So God created all the sea animals and birds before he created the earth at the end of the fifth day??? Reeeeallly??????

Genesis 1:1 is when God created the earth without form.
Genesis 1:9-10 is when God created Adam's Earth.

Gen 1:9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
 
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Open Heart

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Genesis 1:1 is when God created the earth without form.
Genesis 1:9-10 is when God created Adam's Earth.

Gen 1:9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Good morning Aman!! It's a beautiful day to love and serve the Lord!

Okay, I get it, I see where you are making your mistake.

1. Just because the earth is void and without form doesn't mean it's not earth. It's still earth. It says it's earth.
2. In verse 10, the context of earth is DIRT, dry ground, the continents, NOT the planet.
3. There was NOTHING before the Big Bang, not even water. Not even Space. Not even Time. The Big Bang is the first moment of Creation that there is anything at all. It is "in the beginning God created."
4. You STILL have problems with photons (light) existing before stars were created.
 
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miamited

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Hi all,

So many on these threads seem to set a stumbling block before believers by claiming that the first chapter of Genesis does not clearly explain that both the universe and the earth are a part of the six day creation event. However, if we look at the evidence found in the books of the law, we find that twice God had written that 'in six days He created the heavens and the earth'.

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted
 
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Aman777

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Good morning Aman!! It's a beautiful day to love and serve the Lord!

Good morning. Let's serve Him with Scriptural Truth.

*** Okay, I get it, I see where you are making your mistake.

1. Just because the earth is void and without form doesn't mean it's not earth. It's still earth. It says it's earth.

Actually, since Scripture is written in Hebrew, the term for earth today, does not necessarily agree with the Hebrew meaning. The word "earth" is ground or land. Ground or land without form is dirt, dust, empty/void as the Hebrew meaning helps us to understand. ALSO, Notice that the word Earth is capitalized in Gen 1:10 but NOT in the beginning:

Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form,

Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; (Capitalized)

*** 2. In verse 10, the context of earth is DIRT, dry ground, the continents, NOT the planet.

Adam's Earth was NOT a Planet. You have confused our Earth with his. Adam's Earth was totally destroyed in the flood. ll Peter 3:6

*** 3. There was NOTHING before the Big Bang, not even water. Not even Space. Not even Time. The Big Bang is the first moment of Creation that there is anything at all. It is "in the beginning God created."

The Big Bang is the first moment of the creation of our present world. It happened on the 3rd Day. God made Adam's firmament on the 2nd Day Gen 1:8 but made other firmaments, which He called Heavens, on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4 God made a Multi-verse containing at least 3 Heavens or boundaries of Universes within His Multi-verse.
Science just hasn't discovered this yet. When they do, you will know that I told you of the future before it was discovered. God told us the same thousands of years ago.

*** 4. You STILL have problems with photons (light) existing before stars were created.

I have NO problem with it. All you have to do is study the OT and see what YHWH looked like and YHWH and Jesus are the SAME. Here is His description, not as a man, but as the Only Image of the invisible God.

Eze 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of His loins even upward, and from the appearance of His loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of One that spake.

Nebuchadnezzar describes the Lord's Image here after he put 3 in the furnace:

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Jesus is also the Light of New Jerusalem in Heaven Rev 21:23 which is 1500 miles square and 1500 miles high and here is what His world looks like:

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to Whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
 
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Open Heart

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There are no Capital/lower case distinctions in Hebrew. Earth is just earth. You have to go by context. In Genesis verse 1, earth is contrasted with the heavens, so that would be the planet. In verse 10, earth is contrasted with the seas, so that would be the continents.

It really is a better idea not to try to make the Big Bang fit in somewhere within the six day Creation story, other than Genesis 1:1. Nothing preceded the Big Bang. NOTHING.
 
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Aman777

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There are no Capital/lower case distinctions in Hebrew. Earth is just earth. You have to go by context. In Genesis verse 1, earth is contrasted with the heavens, so that would be the planet. In verse 10, earth is contrasted with the seas, so that would be the continents.

It really is a better idea not to try to make the Big Bang fit in somewhere within the six day Creation story, other than Genesis 1:1. Nothing preceded the Big Bang. NOTHING.

Where was God? He tells us He made other HeavenS on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4
Adam's Heaven, the first Heaven, was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:8

The King James translators capitalized the word Earth, with help from the Holy Spirit from inside them, UNLESS you believe that men wrote the Bible? My God brought His Truth down through the Ages despite the ignorance of mere mortal men. Your God is thus shown to be weak by your own words. Jesus IS Lord. Amen?
 
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Open Heart

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Where was God? He tells us He made other HeavenS on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4
Adam's Heaven, the first Heaven, was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:8

The King James translators capitalized the word Earth, with help from the Holy Spirit from inside them, UNLESS you believe that men wrote the Bible? My God brought His Truth down through the Ages despite the ignorance of mere mortal men. Your God is thus shown to be weak by your own words. Jesus IS Lord. Amen?
I think that mere mortal men translated the KJV.

You have not responded to my points. Again:
There are no Capital/lower case distinctions in Hebrew. Earth is just earth. You have to go by context. In Genesis verse 1, earth is contrasted with the heavens, so that would be the planet. In verse 10, earth is contrasted with the seas, so that would be the continents.
 
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Aman777

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I think that mere mortal men translated the KJV.

You have not responded to my points. Again:
There are no Capital/lower case distinctions in Hebrew. Earth is just earth. You have to go by context. In Genesis verse 1, earth is contrasted with the heavens, so that would be the planet. In verse 10, earth is contrasted with the seas, so that would be the continents.

In Gen 1:1 earth without form is ground. I view it as ground up dirt or dust. God created air and dust and EVERYTHING consists of these two creation elements. Water came forth from gases within the heaven or air. Put air, dust and water together and you will see HOW Jesus made Adam. He molded and shaped him like the great Potter He is. Put life from the breath of Christ into the clay and you have the FIRST Human, who was made Billions of years BEFORE any other living creature. Amen?
 
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Open Heart

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In Gen 1:1 earth without form is ground. I view it as ground up dirt or dust. God created air and dust and EVERYTHING consists of these two creation elements. Water came forth from gases within the heaven or air. Put air, dust and water together and you will see HOW Jesus made Adam. He molded and shaped him like the great Potter He is. Put life from the breath of Christ into the clay and you have the FIRST Human, who was made Billions of years BEFORE any other living creature. Amen?
He made adam BEFORE any other living creature? I give up. You believe neither science NOR Genesis.
 
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Hoghead1

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God made Adam before any other creature? That is the case in Gen.2. But definitely not the case in Gen.1, where first the animals are created and then man and woman together. It is widely recognized that Genesis provides two contradictory chronologies. Here is my take on it.





When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



P.S. Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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Open Heart

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God made Adam before any other creature? That is the case in Gen.2. But definitely not the case in Gen.1, where first the animals are created and then man and woman together. It is widely recognized that Genesis provides two contradictory chronologies.
Oh heaven forbid anyone confess this! thank you :)
 
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Aman777

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He made adam BEFORE any other living creature? I give up. You believe neither science NOR Genesis.

Sure He did. Adam was made on the 3rd Day BEFORE the plants herbs and rain.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, ***3rd Day Gen 1:10

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: ***3rd Day Gen 1:12 for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

On the 3rd Day after the earth was made but before the plants, which also grew on the 3rd Day, the Lord made Adam. Amen?

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom He had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

See? The trees which grew on the 3rd Day were made AFTER Adam was made.

Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after His kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after His kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

EVERY other living creature that moveth was created in water, on the FIFTH Day.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after Their kind, and every winged fowl after His kind: and God saw that it was good. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Which came first? Adam or the plants which grew on the 3rd Day AFTER Adam was made? God Bless you
 
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Open Heart

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Sure He did. Adam was made on the 3rd Day BEFORE the plants herbs and rain.
Here is the third day before the plants and stuff:

And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
NOTHING in there about creating man.

Now HERE is where he creates man:

And God said, Let us make man in Our image.... and the evening and the morning were the sixth day.​

Please don't talk to me anymore. There is simply no sense in carrying on with this anymore. You don't base your beliefs on anything, so there is nothing for me to base a rational discussion upon.
 
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Aman777

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*** When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.

In other words, listen to me and NOT what Scripture actually says because I know more than God does.

*** Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts.

IOW, Since I cannot understand, No one can. Just accept that there is One Truth for Science and another for God's Truth. I will show you which one to believe.


***If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.?

People who believe God by Faith believe such and God says that's the way it's supposed to be, The just will live by Faith. That's why I'm here. I have found the details which have been hidden from atheists, agnostics and phonies.

*** So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc.

Should we believe in Protestants or Jesus Christ and God's Holy Word?

*** Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.

God tells us He made 3 Heavens. Gen 1:8 and Gen 2:4 Are we supposed to stop believing God because Calvin couldn't understand Genesis?

*** Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

False, since you are so confused, I will explain. The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us the completed HISTORY of God's SEVEN Day creation, including future events. We live today at Gen 1:27 because God is currently filling His perfect 3rd Heaven with it's host which includes ALL Christians. We live today on the present 6th Day. At Gen 2:4, we are taken back to the events of the 3rd Day, and shown "added" details of the 3rd Day, such as the Fact that Adam was made on this Day.

EVERY verse in the Bible from Gen 2:4 to Rev 22 is "adding" details to ONE of God's Seven Days of Creation. There is but ONE story of the Creation and it is told in it's entirety in the first 34 verses of Genesis. God wrote the ENTIRE HISTORY of His SIX Days of work, of creating His perfect Heaven, in Genesis Chapter ONE. It's proof of God since NO man of the time could have known this.

>>>>>>BIG SNIP<<<< of foolishness which cannot be supported by Scripture.
 
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Aman777

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Here is the third day before the plants and stuff:

And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
NOTHING in there about creating man.

You are reading the complete Outline of God's Seven Days of Creation. God tells us the complete History of the 6 Days or time of labor in the FIRST Chapter of Genesis. In the first 3 verses of Gen TWO, God tells us of a FUTURE Day, the 7th Day, which has NO end.

The details of Adam's formation from the dust of the ground begins with Gen 2:4 and "adds details" to the Outline of the 3rd Day shown in Genesis 1:7-13. It's the SAME all the way through the Bible, all the way to the end of Revelation. Most of the references are to the present 6th Day, the Day of Salvation, for mankind. It's ONE story which reveals HOW we can go to Heaven.

The Outline is in the first 34 verses of Genesis and the details are contained in the rest of the Bible. That's God's Literal Truth, no matter what some religion tells you.


*** Now HERE is where he creates man:

And God said, Let us make man in Our image.... and the evening and the morning were the sixth day.​

Please don't talk to me anymore. There is simply no sense in carrying on with this anymore. You don't base your beliefs on anything, so there is nothing for me to base a rational discussion upon.

Sorry, but I've already gone this far. I might as well finish. You are correct that Adam was NOT CREATED until the 6th Day. He was made from the dust on the 3rd Day by Jesus (Lord God). Gen 2:4-7 He was "created in God's Image" or Spiritually in Christ at the SAME time Eve was created Spiritually. This was AFTER Cain killed Abel.

Gen 1:27 shows the Outline and Gen 5:1-2 "adds" the details.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God (Col 1:15 shows that Jesus is the Image of the invisible God) created He him; male and female created He them.

Gen 5:1 ¶ This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him; Gen 5:2 Male and female created He them; and blessed them, and called THEIR name Adam, (Heb-mankind) in the day when they were created.

Gen 2:4-7 shows that Jesus (Lord God) made man from the dust. When Adam and Eve were created Spiritually in Christ (Gen 5:1-2) it was AFTER the fall. Like all Christians, Adam and Eve were born again Spiritually in Christ, Eternally. Notice that it's NOT Jesus creating them but God (Elohim the Trinity) who created them forevermore.

This could NOT have happened until the 6th Day since Eve was NOT made until the 6th Day. Gen 2:22 That's God's Literal Scriptural Truth. Amen?
 
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AsPatat

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It should at least call into question whether we've understood God rightly.
This.

And our interpretation of scientific evidence is not above questioning either. You did say IF after all.

He is definitely not a liar. When it seems like God is contradicting himself perhaps He is challenging our constructions of who God is with who he actually is.
 
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Aman777

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This.

And our interpretation of scientific evidence is not above questioning either. You did say IF after all.

He is definitely not a liar. When it seems like God is contradicting himself perhaps He is challenging our constructions of who God is with who he actually is.

Amen. The problem is with the communication of the Supreme intelligence of Creation with backwood bumpkins, like all of us are, in comparison to Him. Amen?
 
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Adam and Eve were created as adults.
At first sight one would have assumed that they experienced a childhood.
A missing belly button might have indicated otherwise. But if belly buttons were added for aesthetic purposes, then nothing at all would have indicated anything unusual.

That argument has been used in support of the young but seemingly old Earth.
 
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