individual or group

[razzelflabben]

Scripture tells us that the body of Christ is made up of many members but is still only one body. Adding to this teaching, we see that in Gen. (and other passages) that prayers and confessions were made for the entire community not just individuals. Yet time and time again, I come across people who when it comes to their local church, only see individuals and not the church as a group.

For me personally, the issue has come to a head recently in our church. (small c for anyone wanting to try to argue the difference between the local group and the Church) It all began (well technically years ago, but most recently) on Father's Day. Father's day weekend is the weekend we lost our son in a freak accident. It is a very difficult day for my husband especially with everyone asking how his Father's Day is going. So this year, the 5th anniversary of our son's death, my husband was having an especially difficult time at church. I was him drifting off into his grief and knew that he would be okay if he didn't have to deal with anything related to our son's death. A well meaning gentleman in the church came up and began asking my husband about our daughter who is currently in Germany serving in an Army that could any day send her to help fight ISIS or Boko Haram. I knew this would send him over the deep end and so, as I watched him retreating into himself, I stepped in and answered the man, giving my husband time to deal with his emotions. My husband was very grateful, which I knew he would be, but the man accused me of running our household rather than allowing the husband to be the head, simply because that day, I answered for him.

At first, I dismissed this as individual, but over the next few weeks, 3 different men at at least four different times, all three leaders in the church have been heard making comments about how woman needing to learn their place and stop trying to take the authority of men away from the men. My husband and I both took this as a sign that it was the church not just individuals that were now believing this. So we took it to the pastor, a very dear friend, but in doing so, we agreed that I should remain silent for the moment and let my husband deal with it. (as per our understanding of scripture) Our pastor isn't taking it well, but is upset with us, not the teaching. In the past he has said he disagrees with the teaching and even said he sees me as a co minister, but this time, he says nothing (so far, we are still trying to get time to talk in depth with him) about what he believes and if he is even willing to teach on the matter.

So my question is, do you believe that the church (again small c) is ever the collective and not just individuals and if so, when/how do we know it is the collective and not just individuals and when it comes from leadership, how would you address it?

 

[Albion]

What I believe is that you'd do well to join a more mainstream, a more conventional, church. I'm sure one is available, whatever your basic denominational/doctrinal leanings might happen to be.

 

[razzelflabben]

What I believe is that you'd do well to join a more mainstream, a more conventional, church. I'm sure one is available, whatever your basic denominational/doctrinal leanings might happen to be.

based on what I said, what makes you think it is not mainstream? conventional? I said nothing about what they believe, only what we ran into while trying to narrow down what is going on and whether this is individuals that need corrected or a teaching that has infiltrated the church as a body.

 

[zippy2]

Dear Raz
If it is individuals, I would ignore it or convince them otherwise (if the pastor is not on your side that is going to be a tuff sell.
But if it has become a church wide doctrine then I would dust my feet off. Jesus did not treat women that way. imho

 

[razzelflabben]

Dear Raz
If it is individuals, I would ignore it or convince them otherwise (if the pastor is not on your side that is going to be a tuff sell.
But if it has become a church wide doctrine then I would dust my feet off. Jesus did not treat women that way. imho

we agree, the question though is how to know if it is individuals or the group? In fact, I just spoke with my husband about that very issue. At the moment, until we figure out if a false teaching has infiltrated the church as a collective or if this is just individuals that need corrected, I have no choice but to hold my tongue....but getting people to understand that is hard because everyone wants to get all emotional about it, which is where our pastor is at the moment. For me, it is just an exercise in humility and obedience. It hurts, but I am not angry. But getting people to see that I am simply obeying until we figure out which it is, is becoming problematic, so I was hoping someone would be able to offer help in identifying which it is, so that the emotions can die down and we can address the issue appropriately...all these men and their run away emotions make me chuckle a bit, just saying, people talk about woman being emotions geesh, the emotional men in my life make me want to run and hide...okay that rant is done, moving on...

So do you have anything to offer as to how to know if it is individuals or the church?

 

[zippy2]

we agree, the question though is how to know if it is individuals or the group? In fact, I just spoke with my husband about that very issue. At the moment, until we figure out if a false teaching has infiltrated the church as a collective or if this is just individuals that need corrected, I have no choice but to hold my tongue....but getting people to understand that is hard because everyone wants to get all emotional about it, which is where our pastor is at the moment. For me, it is just an exercise in humility and obedience. It hurts, but I am not angry. But getting people to see that I am simply obeying until we figure out which it is, is becoming problematic, so I was hoping someone would be able to offer help in identifying which it is, so that the emotions can die down and we can address the issue appropriately...all these men and their run away emotions make me chuckle a bit, just saying, people talk about woman being emotions geesh, the emotional men in my life make me want to run and hide...okay that rant is done, moving on...

So do you have anything to offer as to how to know if it is individuals or the church?

Ask in indivduals in your Sunday school class, Bible class, ask on Sunday night or at socials. Ask both men and women. That is the only way you are going to know. I wish you God's Blessings in this. Woman are treated unfairly in these situations...I don't understand it for the life of me.

 

[razzelflabben]

Ask in indivduals in your Sunday school class, Bible class, ask on Sunday night or at socials. Ask both men and women. That is the only way you are going to know. I wish you God's Blessings in this. Woman are treated unfairly in these situations...I don't understand it for the life of me.

thanks...all good ideas, some we are able to do, some not so much because of some of the other "issues" in the church right now, which is a very long story.

As my husband said, there are woman in the church right now who are stirring problems and need to be quiet, but most of the woman are if anything too quiet. Anyway, I digress...thanks, they are great answers and we are prayerfully looking into it the best we know how giving the situation, praying that we would know truth and not let hurt cloud our vision.

 

[Albion]

based on what I said, what makes you think it is not mainstream? conventional? I said nothing about what they believe, only what we ran into while trying to narrow down what is going on and whether this is individuals that need corrected or a teaching that has infiltrated the church as a body.

Believe me, I have no intention to mischaracterize your church or to venture into any dispute over doctrine. However, and going only by what you wrote, the "women need to keep in their place" kind of thinking is more widespread than just the opinion of the man who upset your husband on that one occasion. And it involves church leaders, you said. Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude that this is not just any individual congregant's own viewpoint.

How "mainstream" or "conventional" would we say such thinking is, as we survey the churches of Christianity? Not very. Not among the churches that do not ordain women, or even among those that feel strongly that the husband is the decision maker in the home. The response you got understandably upset you and your husband, and I am sure that if it's as deeply ingrained in the congregation as your words suggested to the reader, another congregation would be worth looking into for your own and your husband's peace of mind. Of course, that's your decision, but you asked for our opinions and that was mine.

 

[razzelflabben]

Believe me, I have no intention to mischaracterize your church or to venture into any dispute over doctrine. However, and going only by what you wrote, the "women need to keep in their place" kind of thinking is more widespread than just the opinion of the man who upset your husband on that one occasion. And it involves church leaders, you said. Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude that this is not just any individual congregant's own viewpoint.

fair enough, in fact that is why we are trying to confirm what is going on, but one thing you do not know from my post is that the leadership is shifting because of some other issues. This basically means that it is not necessarily as wide spread throughout the church as one might think just from knowing all three men were leaders in the church. But...that being said, you do make a good point, a point that stirred us to question in the first place.

How "mainstream" or "conventional" would we say such thinking is, as we survey the churches of Christianity? Not very. Not among the churches that do not ordain women, or even among those that feel strongly that the husband is the decision maker in the home. The response you got understandably upset you and your husband, and I am sure that if it's as deeply ingrained in the congregation as your words suggested to the reader, another congregation would be worth looking into for your own and your husband's peace of mind. Of course, that's your decision, but you asked for our opinions and that was mine.

One of the things that is driving our pastors emotional response is that we already told him we were prayerfully considering leaving over the issue.

Another thing that I didn't mention as it didn't directly apply to the discussion at hand, only indirectly, is that the pastor and his family have been very close to us for some time, no time more so than when our son died. They took us in or a week, held media at bay so we could deal with what was happening, got us through a really tough time by being brother, friend, family. There is a lot of history there that will be affected by our leaving if that becomes necessary. couple that with the other issues that have been going on, it is understandably an emotional issue for those of us involved right now, something that doesn't translate well into posts, but also something that leads me to ask for wisdom on how to know the difference. Even if our pastor doesn't agree with the teaching (which I can't imagine he does) he alone doesn't represent the whole church and as such could be a lone man out on this issue, which makes finding out the truth of whether it is individual or church wide even harder to figure out. Thus any advice on knowing how to know the difference is very helpful, useful, and appreciated.

 

[razzelflabben]

I really wanted this to be a general discussion and not specifically about our current situation, but in order to explain a bit more about what is going on and why it is harder than it should be to know which it is in this situation.

About 2 years ago, well, it all started about 5 years ago, but came to a head about 2 years ago, there began a "fight" in the church over who was going to gain power, the conservatives or the liberals. This fight has been going on for a long time now and though it seems like the liberals are gaining ground, the faithfuls are trying to encourage each other to stay the course and take the church for God. We have been part of that fight and about the time we are ready to throw in the towel, something happens to give us hope. Where it stands right now, I am not sure, but this is a perfect opportunity to find out, the question is how to know for sure.

 

[Albion]

Now that I think about it, my first answer probably seemed unnecessarily curt, for which I apologize. I've encountered similar accounts from dozens of people and the decision to stay or go is usually anguishingly difficult. The fact that your pastor was so helpful during those bad days you endured makes it harder still. This only adds to the difficulty of knowing what to do.

That said, I do believe that people often stay when they should go. They think they're being disloyal, when their primary loyalty is to Christ's church and not to any particular congregation.

But we all were raised not to be impetuous or disloyal, so I understand the hesitation. It's somewhat like those people who write of their upset that their churches are adopting new doctrines or policies that they consider immoral or false. What to do? They'll leave friends. It's the church they worked so hard to build. Not everyone is "like that." "Maybe the church will come to its senses in the future." and so on.

But the church cannot be a place where you are uncomfortable, stifled, or "making do." Doing that simply ruins the prospects for peace, spiritual growth, and honest fellowship that are so important. If we were talking about some social club, maybe it wouldn't be the same, but not when it comes to one's church!

So, I guess all I meant to say was not to be unnecessarily reluctant to make the move. Of course, if other factors tip the balance in favor of staying, after you've considered every angle, that's understandable.

I wish you the best.

 

[razzelflabben]

Now that I think about it, my first answer probably seemed unnecessarily curt, for which I apologize. I've encountered similar accounts from dozens of people and the decision to stay or go is usually anguishingly difficult. The fact that your pastor was so helpful during those bad days you endured makes it harder still. This only adds to the difficulty of knowing what to do.

That said, I do believe that people often stay when they should go. They think they're being disloyal, when their primary loyalty is to Christ's church and not to any particular congregation.

amen...not so long ago, but long enough, we prayed about whether or not it was time to leave because we saw less and less conservative and more and more liberal. So we put out a fleece, or we would have left by now. It is a hard decision to make, but it is also where God has called us for the time being and until He tells us it is time to leave, our own thoughts and feeling can't be a part of our decision. What the church believes and teaches can be.

Btw, thanks for the apology though it wasn't necessary, I just wasn't following where you were coming from. We take following God very seriously, which should be evident from my current silence in the church, but that still leaves the question, when is God saying it is time to leave. There are many faithfuls that are looking to us to help them in this fight. In fact, the district exec said that every church needs someone like us to show them how to live out Christ no matter the situation (huge compliment, not sure well deserved given how often we fail). Point being amen to what you say here, which is why we are praying before making a judgment and why we are submitting until we find out, so that it is not us, but God.

But we all were raised not to be impetuous or disloyal, so I understand the hesitation. It's somewhat like those people who write of their upset that their churches are adopting new doctrines or policies that they consider immoral or false. What to do? They'll leave friends. It's the church they worked so hard to build. Not everyone is "like that." "Maybe the church will come to its senses in the future." and so on.

our staying has been prompted by two things, 1. situations out of our control and 2. confirmations by God that this is where HE wants us for the time being. That isn't about to change any time soon. No matter the outcome, when God says leave, we leave, when He says stay and fight, we stay and fight.

But the church cannot be a place where you are uncomfortable, stifled, or "making do." Doing that simply ruins the prospects for peace, spiritual growth, and honest fellowship that are so important. If we were talking about some social club, maybe it wouldn't be the same, but not when it comes to one's church!

one of the things that is upsetting the pastor is that we told him that we might have to (if we stay) surround ourselves with the faithful that encourage us unto righteousness while distancing ourselves further from those that discourage righteousness.

So, I guess all I meant to say was not to be unnecessarily reluctant to make the move. Of course, if other factors tip the balance in favor of staying, after you've considered every angle, that's understandable.

I wish you the best.

My personal (not sure about my husband's at this point) biggest reason for dragging my feet (other than not yet knowing if it is the church or individuals) is that not so long ago, we put out a fleece as to whether we needed to stay or go. The fleece came back to stay, so we stayed. The question today, is whether that fleece is still good or whether God is releasing us to leave. If we go, there will be others that follow no matter what we do, which is also weighing into all of this. It really is a long and complicated story that involves the dynamics of this body and how it came to be, etc.

None the less, I really appreciate your encouragement here and cherish it in my heart as I know that it will give me strength as we struggle with this issue.

 

[Dave-W]

IMO the person who got upset that you answered for your husband has not looked enough into what it means that husband and wife are "one."

 

[razzelflabben]

IMO the person who got upset that you answered for your husband has not looked enough into what it means that husband and wife are "one."

yep...did a study on the marriage relationship as per how Christ loved the church from Isaiah 53 compared to the wife of noble character in Prov. 31...extremely powerful study and we are currently waiting for approval to teach this in SS. Which is another reason to be sure on the question at hand and not jump the gun, because we might have opportunity for some good sound teaching on the issue.

 

[pdudgeon]

we agree, the question though is how to know if it is individuals or the group? In fact, I just spoke with my husband about that very issue. At the moment, until we figure out if a false teaching has infiltrated the church as a collective or if this is just individuals that need corrected, I have no choice but to hold my tongue....but getting people to understand that is hard because everyone wants to get all emotional about it, which is where our pastor is at the moment. For me, it is just an exercise in humility and obedience. It hurts, but I am not angry. But getting people to see that I am simply obeying until we figure out which it is, is becoming problematic, so I was hoping someone would be able to offer help in identifying which it is, so that the emotions can die down and we can address the issue appropriately...all these men and their run away emotions make me chuckle a bit, just saying, people talk about woman being emotions geesh, the emotional men in my life make me want to run and hide...okay that rant is done, moving on...

So do you have anything to offer as to how to know if it is individuals or the church?

I think the point here that some of the men in your church have missed is that they cannot be the heads of their families if they cannot first understand and acknowledge the headship of Jesus Christ over their own lives. They need to be servants of God before they become leaders of their families.


when they understand that the devotion of servant hood to God is based on love and not on a position of power or might,
then they are ready to learn that the covenant relationship of a husband and wife is as one person, and not as master and servant.

and in order to do that they need to go all the way back to Genesis--before the fall--and study the right relationship between God and Adam and Eve.

There is a movie out (made a while back) called "Courageous" that details all of this.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think the point here that some of the men in your church have missed is that they cannot be the heads of their families if they cannot first understand and acknowledge the headship of Jesus Christ over their own lives. They need to be servants of God before they become leaders of their families.


when they understand that the devotion of servant hood to God is based on love and not on a position of power or might,
then they are ready to learn that the covenant relationship of a husband and wife is as one person, and not as master and servant.

and in order to do that they need to go all the way back to Genesis--before the fall--and study the right relationship between God and Adam and Eve.

There is a movie out (made a while back) called "Courageous" that details all of this.

one of the things that struck me about your post is that you went back to Gen. at least some of the men are using Gen. to justify their ideas. the passage that says she will have pain in childbearing and yet she will desire her husband. They interpret that to mean that she will always want her husbands position, therefore must be put in her place. But again, our quandary is not whether or not the teaching is good, we already know it is false teaching, the quandary is knowing when it is the church and when it is just a few people in the church who need corrected.

 

[Albion]

But again, our quandary is not whether or not the teaching is good, we already know it is false teaching, the quandary is knowing when it is the church and when it is just a few people in the church who need corrected.

It's probably a good idea for you to remind us of this point because it's easy for us to get sidelined into addressing something else that appeared in the OP.

If I didn't speak to it directly before, my feeling is that because a number of people, including some church leaders, expressed this particular POV (you personally know of at least 13 such instances, by my count!), it's strong evidence that the idea is somehow built into the congregation generally. How that comes to be, whether it's been taught in some Bible class or is incorporated into the congregation's statement of belief, or something else like that, I don't know and it doesn't really matter.

Had it been only one person or two expressing a personal view they'd picked up somewhere else in life, this conclusion would not be solid, but it's hard to imagine that's all you're dealing with given the number of comments you can point to--and these three or four men, and how many women we don't know, are just the ones you personally can attest for. It's not unrealistic to think that there were additional comments that didn't get relayed back to you.

 

[razzelflabben]

It's probably a good idea for you to remind us of this point because it's easy for us to get sidelined into addressing something else that appeared in the OP.

If I didn't speak to it directly before, my feeling is that because a number of people, including some church leaders, expressed this particular POV (you personally know of at least 13 such instances, by my count!), it's strong evidence that the idea is somehow built into the congregation generally. How that comes to be, whether it's been taught in some Bible class or is incorporated into the congregation's statement of belief, or something else like that, I don't know and it doesn't really matter.

Had it been only one person or two expressing a personal view they'd picked up somewhere else in life, this conclusion would not be solid, but it's hard to imagine that's all you're dealing with given the number of comments you can point to--and these three or four men, and how many women we don't know, are just the ones you personally can attest for. It's not unrealistic to think that there were additional comments that didn't get relayed back to you.

Just to update, it is looking more and more like it is church not just individuals, but my husband is hoping that he and our pastor can work out a schedule to talk more about it sometime today.

 

[razzelflabben]

So, I thought I'd take a moment and update everyone. My husband did get some time to talk with our pastor and we still aren't sure. Our pastor assured us that he had no idea the idea was even in the church, but gave no indication of how to weed it out either or even if steps should be taken to weed it out. My husband is trying to set up another time to talk with him, which with schedules is very difficult, but since my husband felt like the issue was addressed with the pastor just not cleared up with the church, I was able to talk to him about all the emotional response I got. Reconciliation feels good.

In the meantime, I cherish the lessons God is teaching me through this season of silence and learning about who the church has become. First, it is teaching me a greater humility than I previously had. What a wonderful gift from God. But secondly, it is teaching me more about this teaching and the proper teaching that should prevail in the church. I Timothy 2:8-15 and II Timothy 3:1-9

What I have learned is this, when we teach woman to "know their place" or to "be quiet and learn at home" or to "not teach men" what we are teaching them is to be idol. In that idol state, man who seek to deceive are free to do so and heresies and false teachings creep into our churches and take control. Even Prov. 31 tells us that women are to teach, to sit at the city gates with the men and there, share Christ with one another. She is told to go out into the world, even to the prominent men of the day and to share the gospel with these men. The wife of noble character in Prov. 31 is neither told to "know her place" "be quiet and learn at home" or told "not to teach men." Because she does these things in the power, peace, and humility of a woman in the HS and a woman who refuses to sit at home and be idol.

You see, for the woman in our world, she has no power to prevent herself from being deceived. She is the "weaker" sex both in strength and political power whether that power is home, church, society, government even in sexual matters, the woman takes a much greater risk at trusting someone than does the man. In fact, in the world, men pray on this weakness by purposing to deceive in order to get what they want from the woman. The easiest place to see this is in sexual relations, where the man will tell the woman a story or act all loving and caring until he gets what he wants and then, he moves on. This is a form of deception that woman are prone to. (Obviously not all men as I already said and want to avoid being attacked by people not listening to what I am saying...) As the weaker sex, a sex that is prone to being deceived by the sheer nature of her life and society, the woman needs to be actively sharing her faith, actively studying the word so as to avoid being deceived and in doing so, she helps to keep false teaching out of the church.

But what about the bible, where it says to not teach men. When we look at the Greek, it says, to not usurp authority over men, iow's just like the men are instructed to live in peace with one another, the woman is told that even though she has a new found freedom in Christ to have an authority that is denied her by man who teach things like "knowing your place", she is not to lord that authority over the men and demand her rights, but rather, she is to submit quietly (as I have been doing) and wait for God to open the doors for her to teach all that God is teaching her. It's about trusting God, about submitting to authority, about waiting for the Lord in quietness, confidence and peace.

Well, I know that isn't what this thread is about, but I thought given how many times it ventured down that road it would be good to update everyone. As to the OP question, that is something we are still exploring since we now have conflicting reports. Until the matter is settled, I shall remain quiet, waiting in confident rest for the Lord God to open the doors for me to teach all that God is teaching me, whether that is in this church or somewhere else.

 

[tturt]

razzelflabben, think it's individual because actually you did what your husband, head of household, wanted you to do. Plus you were showing him respect (Eph 5:33).

Let's look at the women not teaching men - I mean how many churches have women in the back teaching Sunday School or what your gathering place calls it. It's fine with everyone until that boy reaches what age or maturity (which will vary per person) and then all of a sudden, she's doesn't have anything to offer. Really? She's just as dedicated, encouraging, Biblical, etc today as before.

Of course, there are some that say women shouldn't teach men anything. That's really interesting because according to Scripture everyone is a teacher. The result is we either learn to do or not to do. Plus there's numerous Scriptures that say teach your children.

Besides Paul admits that it's him, "I suffer..." (not Yahweh) that thinks women shouldn't teach (1 Timothy 2:11-12) Women perplexed Paul. I laugh when I read it. "And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not." I Cor 7:30 Some men are still saying the same thing today.