Immaculate Conception

katerinah1947

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You posted a provocative pilfered (non-attributed) polemic which called for a response.

Indeed.

Indeed.

Indeed.
Are they wrong about saints in heaven, or wherever they are?
Indeed.

Insofar as Scripturally manifest, which exposing the fallacious nature of RC propaganda helps to do, by God's grace.

Not for me.

No, i am not running for pope, but hope to point them to Christ and His wholly inspired word. Do you think what Rome promulgates in addition to Scripture is spoken under that same inspiration?

Hi,

.... but hope to point them to Christ and....

So you want to point them to Christ.

....His wholly inspired word. ....

So, you want them to follow The Bible.

And you are upset with me because I stole
something.

So, they are not Christian to you. They are not following the Bible to your way of thinking. And, I am a thief, according to you.

Are there any other points you would like to inform me of?

LOVE,
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Christ himself said to obey those who sat in Moses' seat. Of course this was far from absolute, since they rejected Him who was the new Magisterium. Luke 10:16 says "whoever listens to you listens to me". Now, how is this Scripture living and active, if--as you believe--it does not mean listening to the Catholic Church's teachings about the Immaculate Conception and Christian doctrine generally? In other words I have to follow Luke 10:16 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and similar Scriptures. So who speaks with the voice of Christ today?
I missed this one. More ignorance. You admit that those who actually are affirmed to have sat in the seat of Moses were not worthy of absolute obedience, yet you insist the church of Rome is, which is in more doctrinal error!

Moreover Luke 10:16 no more teaches absolute obedience to Rome than Mt. 23:2 does to those who sat in Moses' seat, and is even less, as that was for those sent directly by the Lord, before the church existed, and the Lord also affirmed one ministering in the name of the Lord who was not part of the apostolic company, (Mk. 9:38-40)

The FACT is that nowhere is absolute conditional obedience to man ever enjoined, nor is magisterial infallibility ensured, but obedience to man is conditional upon conformity of Scripture as the only wholly inspired substantive body of Truth. Which is is the assured voice of Christ, by which all truth claims are to be tested.

And thus the church began with common souls following itinerant preachers in dissent from the historical magisterium, and likewise obedience to God today requires dissent from Rome and her unScriptural errors.

Nor can you obey 2Thes. 2:15 as you do not know what this contemporary teaching specifically refers to, while as explained, apostolic tradition is not the same thing as that of Rome, and the veracity of which is based on Scripture, not the premise of Rome's self-proclaims ensured infallibility.

RC insistence on implicitly following Rome is cultic, and after hours of refuting your repetitious propaganda and mantras only to see more of the same, and refusal to answer fundamental questions, you are sadly left in your delusions. May God grant you repentance.
 
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Rick Otto

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Your response seems rather disjointed and lacking in coherence, but i will respond to this, as indeed the manner of adulation and attribution of powers and attribute to Mary is far beyond what we see given to any being except God in Scripture. In which, while the Holy Spirit uses words distinctively for the activity of worship (Heb.: Todah=thanksgiving to God; Zamar=praise of God; GK: Proskuneō = worship; latreia=service of God) as well as others that are not exclusively used for such toward God, yet worship is defined by what it describes.

Such as in praying to an invisible entity with praise and adulation, imploring such for heavenly aid (sometimes including bowing down to a statute of it), and or making offerings to these supernatural beings (including wholly dedicating themselves to them), and or ascribing to such attributes and glory that are uniquely ascribed to God/Christ in Scripture, including the power to hear in Heaven incessant multitudinous mental prayers addressed to them from earth and respond to them.

Yet somehow RCs do all such and yet imagine that it would be understood as worship in Scripture, and argue that their activity which is identical with what only God is given in Scripture is actually merely being (in Latin) "hyperdulia," and not "latria" (Gk. = latreia) in Scripture. However, latria actually is only used for service of God in the NT, (Jn. 16:2, Rom. 9:4, Heb. 9:1; 9:6) and which service many Catholics also offer to Mary as a supernatural being in the spiritual realm, offering themselves wholly to her, and who can be corporately communicated to mentally or hear from Heaven.

Yet the Holy Spirit presents God as the only supernatural being in Heaven that offerings and total dedicatory service is made to by believers, and the only such being whom believers on earth pray to. And who can hear from Heaven those on earth who communicate mentally or otherwise. I see communication btwn created beings only taking place with both somehow being in the same realm, and with no intercession to God being requested.

In addition, although Catholics attempts to excuse their activity of worship as being "hyperdulia," and not "latria," yet "dulia" (as douleo in Greek) is used to describe worship in many places in the LXX. Such as "And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, saying, We have sinned against thee, both because we have forsaken our God, and also served [latreuo in LXX ] Baalim." (Judges 10:10)

But by employing the Catholic spin such could claim "We were only engaging in dulia, not latria. Can't you tell the difference?"

More examples

Moreover, in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."

as Christ was sinless, so Mary was;

as the Lord remained a virgin, so Mary;

as Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);

as the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);

as Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);

as Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also;

as Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.
as the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;
as Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”

as Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”

as the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is enthroned (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;

as Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;

as Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to do so;

as all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace;

as Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;”

as no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;

and as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”

And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!

Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.
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Thanks. One of the best posts I've seen on this subject.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Hi,
So you want to point them to Christ.
So, you want them to follow The Bible.
And you are upset with me because I stole
something.
So, they are not Christian to you. They are not following the Bible to your way of thinking. And, I am a thief, according to you.
Are there any other points you would like to inform me of?
LOVE,
You have enough to handle.
 
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katerinah1947

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You have enough to handle.

Hi,

Remember. You are being handled by your mannerisms, your briar ones.

Nothing you say, being briar like, can be listened to, according to Jesus.

If I listen, I am not following Jesus.

Briar in men is a choice. What Jesus says about that choice, is in Matthew 7:15-16.

What that means here, is like those in Job who spoke incorrectly about God, your meanings and reasonings cannot be listened to, like their words which are in Job.

Remember, it is God in Job, who told Job, that two of his friends did not speak rightly about God.

It is also God, that says people who are mean, are Matthew 7:15.

You can change that. Until you do, Matthew 7:15, applies, because you fit the briar description in Matthew 7:16.

LOVE,
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Hi,
...It is also God, that says people who are mean, are Matthew 7:15.

You can change that. Until you do, Matthew 7:15, applies, because you fit the briar description in Matthew 7:16.LOVE,

Which is simply your bigoted damnable opinion, since you see substantive refutation of Rome's errors as being that of false prophets, while if some acerbic language is the problem for you, then your own church falls under judgment.
 
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patricius79

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Have you even read what i have told and showed you in my posts, which refutes your repetitive parroted polemic, or is lack of comprehension only your problem?

I can see why many prefer Rome to be as your Wizard of Oz, and implicit trust in her, as they cannot even see that SS does not need Scripture to provide the canon, as it evidences, teaches and supports the means of realizing one

I don't think the Bible says that.

How does it do that when none of the books in the New Testament even claim to be canonical or inerrant. None of them even refer to a "New Testament", nor the idea that the written Word is superior to the oral Word. I agree that Scripture is crucial. That's why I'm Catholic.

It's not very complicated to me. Christ said "whoever listens to you listens to me". And the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write: "hold fast to the traditions as they were given, whether orally or by letter".

I also find that many who don't agree with the Church's teaching about our Immaculate Mother also don't accept Christ's explicit and emphatically emphasized words about eating His Flesh.

I don't think it makes sense to disagree with Christ's explicit words--emphasized four times in a row--and then demand explicit texts for the Church's beliefs about the Mother of the Lord.
 
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katerinah1947

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Which is simply your bigoted damnable opinion, since you see substantive refutation of Rome's errors as being that of false prophets, while if some acerbic language is the problem for you, then your own church falls under judgment.

Hi, (will finish edits as soon as I can) (Done)(done)

You have gone too far.

1.) It Is The Holy Spirit Himself that told me of Matthew 7:15. Personally.

2.) You did not know that did you?

3.) Approved Private Revelations are legal for me to talk about, and that Matthew 7:15 Statement was given to me by The Holy Spirit, just after All Three of Them, Father, Son and The Holy Spirit, Verbally, in their personal speaking voices, gave me what was needed for a man at my door just a few short minutes before.

4.) You have already said that The Catholics do not follow Christ. That is saying that Catholics are not Christian.

5.) You have already said Catholics do not follow the Bible. That is also saying Catholics are not Christian.

Christian Forums has ruled about telling Christians that they are not Christian, when they say they are.

If they don't have a rule about calling a Bible following Christian, not a Bible following Christian, they should have.

Matthew 7:15, was given to me by The Holy Spirit, after The Virgin Mary had gifted me with much in the way of Seeing And Knowing God, Her Son, The Holy Spirit, her, in preparation for having an encounter with God The Father Himself, about 21 months later.

Then, in January of 2006 or early February, these words I spoke to God, ~Whom I had just met a few short days or weeks ago~ after some Mormons left my door at home, while I was still recovering from an overseas trip are:

"~I have great stuff for the Mormons. I have nothing for the JW's~"

I was recovering from a trip, ~The mother of Jesus Christ, had requested I make, and which to my everlasting shame, refused but later asked if I should have gone.~

~The answer was, that I should have gone. I asked for the answer in no uncertain terms. The answer was given that way. In no uncertain terms.~


Later for you, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and God The Father now, ~personally helped her, to get me to do what she wanted.~

I was so resistant, so stubborn, that the ~reason~ was given to me, ~Why I was being requested to go.~

Even that hurts today, as I was to go there to get ~~~~A GIFT~~~~

So, when Mary is not listened to by one, such as me, God gets involved, just like you would expect, if she is; Who; The Catholic Church says she Is, and The Bible says she is.

~By The Holy Spirit:~

Matthew 7:15 was what I was given. And there is more, but ~until God has made His Presence personally known to you, like He has to so many here on Christian Forums, you cannot understand what is said about Him, Normally.~

Yes, lots of people on CF, have met God personally in some way or another, not just say they have, but have, based on their changed way of interfacing with God, to others, who have also had the same experience, with God, in some way or another.

~~ These marks, are so I can talk without having to try and give my ~personal understandings and communications with God~ while talking to persons who have not had any of ~those yet.~

It was given to me to help me handle a whole group of people that as an organization, we're not defeated by anyone because of their ways.

Yes, I had to look it up. I had no idea what that scripture was.

Yes, I had to figure out why it applied to the JW's.

Matthew 7:16, is what I used. I looked to see what the JW, teachers were like, when they were not performing.

No, I did not let them know at work what I was doing.

Yes, when I thought I understood, I checked with all others to see if any of them, saw anything contrary to my observations.

Some, individuals are not, those that are captured by their words, like your mean words here to me, my church, and I imagine now my Approved Private Revelation on The Holy Spirit, that you might be using that way.

It is to capture me for you only, and not for God, but by using the Bible to do so.

(The Last one, calling The Holy Spirit's Words, what you called them, I will not tolerate, as it involves He Who Works So Hard, That Even ~Self, He sets aside.~ )

{{{ Jesus, defended The Holy Spirit, because The Holy Spirit rarely defends Himself. }}}

The majority though, are mean. That was my observation.

Me you can keep insulting, but here even that is illegal, as is calling The Roman Catholic Church, non Christian, and, or, not following the Bible.

They are both Christian and They Follow The Bible.

Do you not understand? With that Approved Private Revelation, God Himself is saying you are a Wolf in Sheeps clothing if you are mean.

You are fighting the whole idea of Approved Private Revelations here. Also, you are fighting what Gideon did here in The Bible. You are fighting what ~James said~ in his letter. You are fighting Deuteronomy 18:20-22, what Moses said. You are fighting Romans 14, what God said through Paul. You are in violation of Mark 9:38-42 also. Those were Jesus's Words to His Apostles.

Another wonderful thing about God Is, that even When He Says Something That Is About Those In religion, that is also true about those not in religion also.

The Psychologists and Psychiatrists say that mean in people, is used for the identical purposes, to what is said in The Bible, that mean people there are using briar ways and thorn ways for; using those ways for, in the Bible.

Mean people, in the civilian world, use mean, to get control of others, so they can use those others, for their individual benefits.

The professional word in DSM IV, which is old and replaced now by DSM V, was Personality Disorder. All of them are characterized by a lack of remorse for their actions. There is more. They have a profile. They have a way of working. They have a goal.


LOVE,
 
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PeaceByJesus

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...
You have gone too far.
1.) It Is The Holy Spirit Himself that told me of Matthew 7:15. Personally.
2.) You did not know that did you?
3.) Approved Private Revelations are legal for me to talk about, and that Matthew 7:15 Statement was given to me by The Holy Spirit, just after All Three of Them, Father, Son and The Holy Spirit, Verbally, in their personal speaking voices, gave me what was needed for a man at my door just a few short minutes before....but ~until God has made His Presence personally known to you, like He has to so many here on Christian Forums, you cannot understand what is said about Him, Normally
You are fighting the whole idea of Approved Private Revelations here.

What next?! Now we have a RC asserting she personally hears from "the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit, Verbally, in their personal speaking voices," and with the Holy Spirit personally telling her what a Bible verse refers to, that one is Wolf in Sheeps clothing if they are "mean" (as in reproving Rome, or an RC defending her) while even the very Lord Jesus and others gave strong reproofs against leaders who also presumed themselves to be above that which was written), while other RCs attack the very concept of claiming personally esoteric surety as to what a Bible verse refers to.

However, your claim has no more credence than those of Joseph Smith, and even your own "Catholic Answers" teaches that private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. And no wonder, since St. Catherine of Siena reported that God the Father personally told her that Mary was not immaculately conceived.

And behold the "mean" words of no less a revered Orthodox "saint"John Maximovitch:

Such a “vain deceit” is the teaching of the Immaculate Conception by Anna of the Virgin Mary, which at first sight exalts, but in actual fact belittles Her. Like every lie, it is a seed of the “father of lies” (John 8:44 ), the devil, who has succeeded by it in blaspheme the Virgin Mary. - http://preachersinstitute.com/2010/06/24/the-error-of-the-immaculate-conception/

But since Mt. 7:15 has not been infallible interpretative by Rome, nor almost any of Scripture, then within basic parameters RCs have great liberty to compel Scripture to support Rome, while the esoteric types may have revelations which correspond to their needs, as with cults.

It is you who has gone too far, and have now further marginalized yourself so much that i think other RCs wish you would cease, and which i should do with you.
 
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patricius79

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What next?! Now we have a RC asserting she personally hears from Father, Son and The Holy Spirit, Verbally, in their personal speaking voices, telling her what a Bible verse refers to while other RCs attack the very concept of claiming personally esoteric surety as to what a Bible verse refers to.
.

Member of the Catholic Church are encouraged to seek and discern God's guidance through prayerful reading of the Scriptures, in communion with the Immaculate Virgin, and never in opposition to the Church's teachings, because we are all members of the same Body of Christ.
 
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katerinah1947

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What next?! Now we have a RC asserting she personally hears from "the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit, Verbally, in their personal speaking voices," and with the Holy Spirit personally telling her what a Bible verse refers to, that one is Wolf in Sheeps clothing if they are "mean" (as in reproving Rome, or an RC defending her) while even the very Lord Jesus and others gave strong reproofs against leaders who also presumed themselves to be above that which was written), while other RCs attack the very concept of claiming personally esoteric surety as to what a Bible verse refers to.

However, your claim has no more credence than those of Joseph Smith, and even your own "Catholic Answers" teaches that private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. And no wonder, since St. Catherine of Siena reported that God the Father personally told her that Mary was not immaculately conceived.

And behold the "mean" words of no less a revered Orthodox "saint"John Maximovitch:

Such a “vain deceit” is the teaching of the Immaculate Conception by Anna of the Virgin Mary, which at first sight exalts, but in actual fact belittles Her. Like every lie, it is a seed of the “father of lies” (John 8:44 ), the devil, who has succeeded by it in blaspheme the Virgin Mary. - http://preachersinstitute.com/2010/06/24/the-error-of-the-immaculate-conception/

But since Mt. 7:15 has not been infallible interpretative by Rome, nor almost any of Scripture, then within basic parameters RCs have great liberty to compel Scripture to support Rome, while the esoteric types may have revelations which correspond to their needs, as with cults.

It is you who has gone too far, and have now further marginalized yourself so much that i think other RCs wish you would cease, and which i should do with you.

Hi,

Well The Roman Catholic Church, Commanded me to appear and be judged, is a heresy accusation.

Perhaps you are not aware that they take matters of seeing God, God speaking to a person, and being married to God The Father, as serious items if they are not true?

Their Spiritual Director, asked me what I was Comnanded by a priest to put before him, and I did that in two parts.

The first part was about, a lot of personal contacts with God.

The second part was harder for him, and he had to calm down, and I had to try and calm him down.

He then went to work. Eventually he was done. Everyone that needs to know knows.

His findings were, that beyond a shadow of a doubt, All those experiences over a two year period, was God, and when the question of ~Will you marry me~ was finally answered by me, yes indeed, my personal marriage to God The Father, sponsored and helped by Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and The Virgin Mary, is indeed true.

That was a heresy call.

Now, it is a matter of record in and by The Roman Catholic Church.

They will wait their standard hundred or two years before the whole church approves this. However, in the mean time, even if I wanted to, I can never say, that Mary did not give me A Gift, God The Father Did Not Appear;;; and later have Gabriel show up; and deliver that question to me, with God The Father Always Present.

I cannot ever say that.

The priest; Father Matt, now deceased; after finding out what happened; in a fleece type of test for God to answer or not, and in thirty days, and exactly and precisely to me as the Fleece Type of test was set up, said to me, on those results: "I do this for a living This is The Holy Spirit".

I cannot, otherwise I would be wrong.

That, is how much the Roman Catholic Church, has on record, and knows.

And, they not me determined that.

You are telling us all here that I am opposing them?

I submit to them. I submitted to them also.

Really, you don't think Rome has not been informed of this twice?

You think that the Bishop here does not know of this?

You do not think The Tribunal Vicar has been made aware of this?

You don't think my personal hand written letter to The Vatican, has not talked about this?

Because The Catholic Church Knows what she is doing both Biblically and Spiritually more than anyone else on this planet, she totally leaves me alone on this as They Themselves, have Approved what has happened to me, as being Validated by The Holy Spirit Himself.

LOVE,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What next?! Now we have a RC asserting she personally hears from "the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit, Verbally, in their personal speaking voices," and with the Holy Spirit personally telling her what a Bible verse refers to, that one is Wolf in Sheeps clothing if they are "mean" (as in reproving Rome, or an RC defending her) while even the very Lord Jesus and others gave strong reproofs against leaders who also presumed themselves to be above that which was written), while other RCs attack the very concept of claiming personally esoteric surety as to what a Bible verse refers to................
Member of the Catholic Church are encouraged to seek and discern God's guidance through prayerful reading of the Scriptures, in communion with the Immaculate Virgin, and never in opposition to the Church's teachings, because we are all members of the same Body of Christ.
*SNIP*
Hi,

Well The Roman Catholic Church, Commanded me to appear and be judged, is a heresy accusation.


Because The Catholic Church Knows what she is doing both Biblically and Spiritually more than anyone else on this planet, she totally leaves me alone on this as They Themselves, have Approved what has happened to me, as being Validated by The Holy Spirit Himself.

LOVE,
I would think that every other Christian Denomination believes the same way, a lot of them perhaps ex RCs?. As an ex-RC, I used to believe the same thing.

On another note, this is what the EOC has this to say about the Roman Catholicism:

http://www.orthodoxheritage.org/MOM 08 2007.htm


Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the “universal primacy” of his Roman Catholic church, approving a document released on Tuesday, July 10, 2007, proclaiming that Orthodox Churches are “defective.”
This was the Pontiff’s latest manner of insulting Jesus Christ and His True Church.


For almost a thousand years since the great Apostasy of Rome, having separated from the true Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Papacy has falsely proclaimed itself the Catholic Church. Orthodox leaders of our times know that the Orthodox Church alone is the true Catholic Church, and we all confess this in our Holy Creed. These leaders have thought that dialogues with the Papists could bear fruit, hoping that Rome would renounce its errors and embrace the unchanging Orthodox faith. The Papacy will never budge a single inch away from its fundamental dogma: “the Pope is the only super-bishop ruling over all, to be questioned by no one, and the infallible representative of God on earth.”

The Pope insults the Lord Christ Himself, who is the Head of the Orthodox Church, His Body, for there is no separation between Christ and Orthodox Christians who live in Christ and in whom Christ lives. The Pontiff thus insinuates that Christ is defective and wounded to His harm. For whatever is said about Christ’s body, the Church applies to the Head of the Body. Christ established this truth, saying: And the King shall answer them, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me. (Mt 25:40). Insulting the Body of Christ necessarily redounds upon the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Body.


cartoon courtesy of this site:

http://blogs.courant.com/bob_englehart/2007/07/july-12-2007.html

........................................................................
july122007.jpg





.

 
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PeaceByJesus

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For almost a thousand years since the great Apostasy of Rome, having separated from the true Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Papacy has falsely proclaimed itself the Catholic Church. Orthodox leaders of our times know that the Orthodox Church alone is the true Catholic Church,
cartoon courtesy of this site:
http://blogs.courant.com/bob_englehart/2007/07/july-12-2007.html
Well, the one true universal church is the corporate body of Christ as it alone consists of only true believers, and the Orthodox also hold some of the same errors as Rome, while substantially disagreeing on many things. But elitist Rome at least considers you worthy of the proper title "church," unlike us, yet the question is whether Rome can actually be properly called such considering her substantial deformation.

How different would the NT be if Rome had actually written it, with believers praying to created beings, led by celibate (/ rare exceptions) men distinctively titled "priest" daily offering up a sacrifice of Christ and dispensing it to the laity in order for them to obtain spiritual life, and looking to Peter as the first of a line of exalted (conditionally) infallible popes in Rome, with a clerical hierarchy under him, and making indulgences to gain deliverance for souls suffering in purgatory, etc.

Yet even the church of the Laodiceans was called a church, so perhaps it may be fitting to call Rome one.
 
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patricius79

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I would think that every other Christian Denomination believes the same way, a lot of them perhaps ex RCs?. As an ex-RC, I used to believe the same thing.

On another note, this is what the EOC has this to say about the Roman Catholicism:

http://www.orthodoxheritage.org/MOM 08 2007.htm


Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the “universal primacy” of his Roman Catholic church, approving a document released on Tuesday, July 10, 2007, proclaiming that Orthodox Churches are “defective.”
This was the Pontiff’s latest manner of insulting Jesus Christ and His True Church.


For almost a thousand years since the great Apostasy of Rome, having separated from the true Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Papacy has falsely proclaimed itself the Catholic Church.


I can't agree agree with the Orthodox about the Papacy, which is clearly necessary for the unity of the Church. "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church... I will give you the keys of the kingdom, etc"

It is through the Catholic Church that I have come to know the truth about the way to Jesus Christ through His Immaculate Mother.
 
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katerinah1947

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I would think that every other Christian Denomination believes the same way, a lot of them perhaps ex RCs?. As an ex-RC, I used to believe the same thing.

On another note, this is what the EOC has this to say about the Roman Catholicism:

http://www.orthodoxheritage.org/MOM 08 2007.htm


Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the “universal primacy” of his Roman Catholic church, approving a document released on Tuesday, July 10, 2007, proclaiming that Orthodox Churches are “defective.”
This was the Pontiff’s latest manner of insulting Jesus Christ and His True Church.


For almost a thousand years since the great Apostasy of Rome, having separated from the true Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Papacy has falsely proclaimed itself the Catholic Church. Orthodox leaders of our times know that the Orthodox Church alone is the true Catholic Church, and we all confess this in our Holy Creed. These leaders have thought that dialogues with the Papists could bear fruit, hoping that Rome would renounce its errors and embrace the unchanging Orthodox faith. The Papacy will never budge a single inch away from its fundamental dogma: “the Pope is the only super-bishop ruling over all, to be questioned by no one, and the infallible representative of God on earth.”

The Pope insults the Lord Christ Himself, who is the Head of the Orthodox Church, His Body, for there is no separation between Christ and Orthodox Christians who live in Christ and in whom Christ lives. The Pontiff thus insinuates that Christ is defective and wounded to His harm. For whatever is said about Christ’s body, the Church applies to the Head of the Body. Christ established this truth, saying: And the King shall answer them, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me. (Mt 25:40). Insulting the Body of Christ necessarily redounds upon the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Body.


cartoon courtesy of this site:

http://blogs.courant.com/bob_englehart/2007/07/july-12-2007.html

........................................................................
july122007.jpg





.

Hi,

The position of mine, is a revealed one that they are more accurate than any other church on this planet, and no where in that revelation is perfection of the church as a whole, implied, stated or true.

When that number was given to me, they were IN MAGNITUDE, 85% Correct.

That's all.

15% error is a lot, in terms of God. It's a lot.

However, 85% is a lot that is right also.

Fights about churches normally comes down to rejecting errors.

Yes, I read your reference.

LOVE,
 
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patricius79

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Well, the one true universal church is the corporate body of Christ as it alone consists of only true believers, and the Orthodox also hold some of the same errors as Rome, while substantially disagreeing on many things. But elitist Rome at least considers you worthy of the proper title "church," unlike us, yet the question is whether Rome can actually be properly called such considering her substantial deformation.

How different would the NT be if Rome had actually written it, with believers praying to created beings, led by celibate (/ rare exceptions) men distinctively titled "priest" daily offering up a sacrifice of Christ and dispensing it to the laity in order for them to obtain spiritual life, and looking to Peter as the first of a line of exalted (conditionally) infallible popes in Rome, with a clerical hierarchy under him, and making indulgences to gain deliverance for souls suffering in purgatory, etc.

Yet even the church of the Laodiceans was called a church, so perhaps it may be fitting to call Rome one.

I know that the English word "priest" comes from the Greek word "presbyteros", which is quite Biblical. Also, Christians in the Bible do pray to one another: i.e. they show one another honor and ask each other, as creatures, to intercede with God for them. And that we have have come to Mount Zion and the spirits of the just men made perfect. Andd the Bible says that the Church is Christ's Body, the fullness of the One who fills all things in every way. And that Christians partake of the divine nature, are one spirit with Christ, and offer their bodies as a living sacrifice. And the Letter of Hebrews is very clear that Christ eternally offers His Body in Heaven. And John is very clear that we must eat Christ's Flesh and Drink His blood. And the early Church definitely believed in Apostolic Succession through laying on of hands, as described in the Bible. Which also says that laying on of hands (Confirmation) is fundamental Christian doctrine, along with faith and the Resurrection. And Purgatory is plainly Biblical, as Paul said that some would be saved at the judgment, but they would first suffer loss, and be saved only as through fire.

Moreover, the Bible is clear that we are to hold fast to both written and oral traditions, that the Church is the Foundation of the Truth, and that Mary--called in Scripture: "Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace", and "She Who Believed"-- conceived our Lord and Savior and God in her womb by the Holy Spirit.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I know that the English word "priest" comes from the Greek word "presbyteros", which is quite Biblical..
WRONG. "Priest" coming etymologically from the Greek word "presbyteros" is NOT Biblical, which is an etymological fallacy since the evolution of a word does not define its original meaning!

For the word which the Holy Spirit distinctively uses for priests, is “hiereus” or “archiereus” (high priest) and is never used for NT pastors. Nor do the words presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer) - which He does use for NT pastors - mean "priest." Presbuteros or episkopos do not denote a unique sacrificial function, and hiereus (as archiereus=chief priests) is used in distinction to elders in such places as Lk. 22:66; Acts 22:5.

All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). But nowhere at NT pastors distinctively titled hiereus, and the idea of the NT presbuteros being a distintive class titled "hiereus" was a later development, due to imposed functional equivalence, supposing NT presbyteros engaged in a unique sacrificial ministry as their primary function.

As Catholic writer Greg Dues in "Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide," states (among others),

"Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions." "When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice [after Rome's theology], the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title 'priest' (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist." (http://books.google.com/books?id=ajZ_aR-VXn8C&source=gbs_navlinks_s)

Also, Christians in the Bible do pray to one another: i.e. they show one another honor and ask each other, as creatures, to intercede with God for them.
No, they never pray to each other as praying to God in Heaven from earth, which is the issue and which you nowhere see, despite prayer being a most basic practice, and pagans are recorded praying to someone else but God.

Thus Caths are reduced to extrapolating it out of earthly relationships, but which do not have complete correspondence and only God is shown prayed to and able to read hearts and hear mental and vocal prayer from earth, while two way communication btwn created beings required both to to somehow be in the same realm.
And that we have have come to Mount Zion and the spirits of the just men made perfect.
Read the context: It is not speaking or perfection of character thru "purgatory," but even the greatest believers of faith awaiting the realization of the redemption of Christ for all believers, which opened Heaven for all OT believers who rested awaiting it.

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40)
And the Letter of Hebrews is very clear that Christ eternally offers His Body in Heaven.
WRONG! The Letter of Hebrews is very clear that Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God." (Hebrews 10:12)

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7:27)

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (Hebrews 10:10-11)
And John is very clear that we must eat Christ's Flesh and Drink His blood.
Which as has been already pointed out, if Jn. 6:53 is literal and just as an unequivocal impertitve as other "verily verily statements, then no one who does not believe in and receive the Catholic "Real Presence" can have spiritual life in them. So much for V2 and the NT gospel, in which believing the gospel message is how one received life in them, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-11) and to "live by Christ" by consuming Him is to live they way Christ lived by the Father, (Jn. 6:57) by the word of God (Mt. 4:4) thus doing His will was Christ's "meat." (Jn. 4:24) For His words are spirit, they are life. (Jn. 6:63) and is what is said to “nourish” (1Tim. 4:6) believers and build them up. (Acts 20:32)

More here.
And the early Church definitely believed in Apostolic Succession through laying on of hands, as described in the Bible.
WRONG. There were no manifest apostolic successors after Judas (though James was martyred: Acts 12:1,2), which (for Judas) was in order to maintain the foundational number of apostles (cf. Rv. 21:14) and which was by the non-political Scriptural means of casting lots. (cf. Prov. 16:33)

Moreover, Rome's so-called apostolic successors fail of the qualifications and credentials of manifest Biblical apostles. (Acts 1:21,22; 1Cor. 9:1; Gal. 1:11,12; 2Cor. 6:4-10; 12:12)

Furthermore, even Cath scholarship (among others) provides testimony against the RC propaganda of her Petrine papacy.

What the NT church did was ordain presbuteros/episkopos (one office) NEVER those distinctively titled "priests."
And Purgatory is plainly Biblical, as Paul said that some would be saved at the judgment, but they would first suffer loss, and be saved only as through fire.
More parrotted pseudo polemics, as the FACT is that 1Cor. 3:8ff refers to the loss of rewards due to the nature of what one built the church with, and only takes place at the Lord's return (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) versus purifying suffering commencing at death!
Moreover, the Bible is clear that we are to hold fast to both written and oral traditions, that the Church is the Foundation of the Truth,
Which has also been refuted, as with the imagination that lack of a canon in Scripture negates SS, and i am not going to continually subsidize your blind heart or lack of comprehension by continually reiterating myself.
and that Mary--called in Scripture: "Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace", and "She Who Believed"-- conceived our Lord and Savior and God in her womb by the Holy Spirit.
That actually is not in dispute.
 
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patricius79

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WRONG. "Priest" coming etymologically from the Greek word "presbyteros" is NOT Biblical, which is an etymological fallacy since the evolution of a word does not define its original meaning!

For the word which the Holy Spirit distinctively uses for priests, is “hiereus” or “archiereus” (high priest) and is never used for NT pastors. Nor do the words presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer) - which He does use for NT pastors - mean "priest." Presbuteros or episkopos do not denote a unique sacrificial function, and hiereus (as archiereus=chief priests) is used in distinction to elders in such places as Lk. 22:66; Acts 22:5.

All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). But nowhere at NT pastors distinctively titled hiereus, and the idea of the NT presbuteros being a distintive class titled "hiereus" was a later development, due to imposed functional equivalence, supposing NT presbyteros engaged in a unique sacrificial ministry as their primary function.

As Catholic writer Greg Dues in "Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide," states (among others),

"Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions." "When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice [after Rome's theology], the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title 'priest' (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist." (http://books.google.com/books?id=ajZ_aR-VXn8C&source=gbs_navlinks_s)


No, they never pray to each other as praying to God in Heaven from earth, which is the issue and which you nowhere see, despite prayer being a most basic practice, and pagans are recorded praying to someone else but God....

WRONG! The Letter of Hebrews is very clear that Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God." (Hebrews 10:12)

It sounds like the Greek word for "priest" (hiereus) was not used for the early Christian elders. You believe this means that they were not special priests. But I don't think the Bible says that. I think we agree that all Christians share in Christ's priesthood, as Scripture says, we are a Kingdom of priests. So Scripture then tells us that there are elders who are priests and bishops who are priests and everyone else who are priests. This all fits with the teaching of the Church Christ founded. Scripture tells us to hold fast ot both the written and the oral traditions, which tell us that the New Covenant has Popes, Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. The idea that the Lord's Supper is one with the Sacrifice of the Cross was universal teaching in the early Catholic Church, founded by Christ. Christ is completely explicit that we must eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood. Hebrews is clear that there is only One Sacrifice--which is Catholic teaching--and that we have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. Hebrews says that Christ is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, and that Christ, as High Priest, must have (present tense) something to offer. Scripture is explicit that this offering is His Body. John 6:51, John 6:53, John 6:55 . By the way, Hebrews is also clear that instructions about the laying on of hands is among the most "fundamental" Christian doctrines, being listed along with repentance and faith and the Resurrection. Early Christian did pray to each other in the sense of asking for one another's prayers, even though they are sinners (but nevertheless are members of cHrist's Body and partakers of the Divine Nature), which is what Catholics do with Mary, who is not only sinless, but holier than all the rest of the Church together. Scripture is clear how we are in communion with the saints in heaven. And as the Church teaches, this would apply especially to the Queen of Heaven.
 
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