If you didn't believe in God, would you still think homosexuality was wrong?

[Kirilov]

Does what it says on the can, this thread. That is my question: "If you didn't believe in God, would you still think homosexuality was wrong?"

The reason I ask this is as follows. I count myself as an agnostic, just this side of atheism. I utterly abhor the opinion that homosexuality is a sin. But lets keep that out of this for the minute. I was wondering how I would go about trying to disabuse a person of faith of this opinion. You see, I have all kinds of opinions about how homosexuality is a naturally occurring phenomenon, and the various reasons why it became taboo and discriminated against. But it seems to me that to any argument that I could offer, the response would involve recourse to scripture and the word of God, and, indeed, perhaps your answer to this thread will be that God is such a large part of your life that you cannot deal in counterfactuals of this type. Which is fine - after all, you are Christians. (Those of you that are.)

But can anybody offer me an argument for why homosexuality is wrong? Is there any way that theists and non-theists can have discourse about this (or any) issue? Or are we always going to come eventually to the impasse of belief or non-belief in God?

We might also spot the 'Euthyphro's Dilemma' lurking around this question - 'Is what is good, good because God commands it, or does God command that which is good?'

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

-hands you a shield- Be prepared to get a "This is for Christians only!" here and there. The not-so-nice regulars would definitely call you on it. In any case, I would believe the same thing I believe right now - no it's not. Christian or otherwise, I simply don't see any reason why God would make it a sin or why it is unnatural.

Also, the only argument is "THE BIBLE SEZ!" I've asked for reasons outside of that and they just ignore me and go "THE BIBLE SEZ!" again. You won't find much more than that here. Because apparently logic is bad unless it follows the fundamentalist pattern.

 

[Kirilov]

Heh, thank you - very heartening. And that shield might well come in handy.

 

[artybloke]

I do believe in God and don't think it's wrong, so I guess I'd be the same.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Good question. I am not sure. Would we think paedophilia was wrong? what are our criteria for moral values?
I guess I would still suspct it isnt right just based on biology.

 

[Rebekka]

I do believe in God and don't think it's wrong, so I guess I'd be the same.

Same here.

 

[HaloHope]

I do believe in God and don't think it's wrong, so I guess I'd be the same.

Yup, same here.

 

[UberLutheran]

I do believe in God and don't think it's wrong, so I guess I'd be the same.

Dittoes.

 

[Kirilov]

Ok fair enough...from reading other threads I hadn't expected opinions to be swayed that way to that extent.

I guess I would still suspct it isnt right just based on biology.

Interesting, but how so? What in biology would suggest that homosexuality is wrong? If its the rarity thing - try telling that to a dwarf, or somebody with 11 fingers, or even somebody left-handed or green-eyed. If its the disease thing, heterosexual relationships foster STD's just as easily.

If its the fact that it doesn't lead to procreation, that is slightly more biologically cogent, but nevertheless I see no reason why this makes it wrong. I think the rationale seems to be that a relationship, and the sex therein, ought to either eventually or potentially lead to procreation. However, this is the wrong way to look at it. If a heterosexual woman was simply to refrain from ever having children, she would not be condemned as evil or unnatural. (One would hope.) If a heterosexual couple were not able to have children, they would similarly not face any criticism. This is because infertility is not something a person has any choice about. So I fail to see why two people in a same-sex relationship (who have no choice in who they love) who are similarly not going to be having children are condemned as sinful.

Or perhaps its the fact that if everyone was homosexual, the human race would die out pretty quick. But this is ridiculous; if everyone was male, the human race would be pretty doomed too - but that doesn't mean its wrong to be male!

It just seems that, from an atheistic point of view, something that occurs in the natural course of life cannot be said to be 'wrong' in any way. On the other hand, from the theistic point of view, if God made some people a certain way, that they couldn't opt out of, He would then be the most sadistic bully to label them sinful and destine them for Hell. It would be the same as giving a person white skin and then reviling them for it.

 

[BAFRIEND]

if I did not believe in God, I would still know that homosexuality was wrong, along with just about everyone else. Like I have stated before, false logic and homsexuality go hand in hand. If you cannot even figure out that you are supposed to be attracted to the opposite sex, then everything else your perception holds should be called into question.

 

[DMagoh]

I count myself as an agnostic, just this side of atheism.

Obviously you didnt read the rules because this section of the Christian Forums is for "Christians Only". That's why it is called: Christian Forums > Christians Only Section > Theology > Christian Philosophy & Ethics > Debates on Homosexuality. The moderators will hopefully be closing and deleting this thread and your posts shortly.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

if I did not believe in God, I would still know that homosexuality was wrong, along with just about everyone else. Like I have stated before, false logic and homsexuality go hand in hand. If you cannot even figure out that you are supposed to be attracted to the opposite sex, then everything else your perception holds should be called into question.

LOL..your post shows you exactly how il-qualified you are to speak on the subject. Nice for you to get your humble opinion in with "just about everyone else"...totally untrue...but it's coming from you, so not surprising. "If you cannnot figure it out that you are SUPPOSED to be attracted...." that's the best defense yet..and goes DIRECTLY in the face of all that you say. For EXACTLY that reason, you should know that homosexuality is outta your hands for the simple reason it isn't something that is figured out...it comes naturally just like heterosexual attraction comes without thinking about it. Anyway...I'm not arguing with you on this because it's worse than the everready bunny up against the wall...I do ask that you keep posting though....I enjoy the comic relief on some of these boards.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Obviously you didnt read the rules because this section of the Christian Forums is for "Christians Only". That's why it is called: Christian Forums> Christians Only Section> Theology> Christian Philosophy & Ethics> Debates on Homosexuality. The moderators will hopefully be closing and deleting this thread and your posts shortly.

He may be deleted, but I hope not. It's much more productive to talk with those that AREN'T like you, and to speak to those that have different opinions. It's a great question, and one that deserves discussion. Clearly those that have issues with homosexuality are 99% faithbased individuals. There is something to be said for that. Is it their christianity that says "homosexuality" is wrong...or is it that christians that HATE homosexuality, use their christianity as their means for not accepting it?

 

[Bianca87]

i have no problems with homosexuality anyways, but the supposed inerrancy of the Bible is the only argument that can be made to support homophobia.

 

[BAFRIEND]

LOL..your post shows you exactly how il-qualified you are to speak on the subject.

deuteronomy 225 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Maybe God is more qualified.

 

[jsimms615]

Does what it says on the can, this thread. That is my question: "If you didn't believe in God, would you still think homosexuality was wrong?"

The reason I ask this is as follows. I count myself as an agnostic, just this side of atheism. I utterly abhor the opinion that homosexuality is a sin. But lets keep that out of this for the minute. I was wondering how I would go about trying to disabuse a person of faith of this opinion. You see, I have all kinds of opinions about how homosexuality is a naturally occurring phenomenon, and the various reasons why it became taboo and discriminated against. But it seems to me that to any argument that I could offer, the response would involve recourse to scripture and the word of God, and, indeed, perhaps your answer to this thread will be that God is such a large part of your life that you cannot deal in counterfactuals of this type. Which is fine - after all, you are Christians. (Those of you that are.)

But can anybody offer me an argument for why homosexuality is wrong? Is there any way that theists and non-theists can have discourse about this (or any) issue? Or are we always going to come eventually to the impasse of belief or non-belief in God?

We might also spot the 'Euthyphro's Dilemma' lurking around this question - 'Is what is good, good because God commands it, or does God command that which is good?'

Yes, I would think it is wrong. I can't imagine a man not being attracted to women. Besides that, it is kinda gross.

 

[HaloHope]

Yes, I would think it is wrong. I can't imagine a man not being attracted to women. Besides that, it is kinda gross.

The "ick" factor is something that I can never really understand as grounds for thinking something is wrong.

I find the idea of hetrosexual sex makes my skin crawl, but it does not make me think "wow that must be morally wrong because it does make my skin crawl". It's about the least convincing argument for thinking something is wrong out there.

It may be difficult for you to imagine a man being attracted to a man, but there are lots of men who are.

Im curious what is your opinion on a woman being attracted to a woman? Is that gross too?

 

[Kirilov]

thanks, UnitedInChrist, for your willingness and sanity.

if I did not believe in God, I would still know that homosexuality was wrong, along with just about everyone else. Like I have stated before, false logic and homsexuality go hand in hand. If you cannot even figure out that you are supposed to be attracted to the opposite sex, then everything else your perception holds should be called into question.

Woah there!......"along with just about everybody else"?! A quick internet search on your part will reveal that for a rather sweeping (and incorrect) assumption. And "if you cannot even figure out that you are supposed to be attracted to the opposite sex"...?! Your allusion to 'false logic' displays what I can only assume is a fine grasp of irony - put into a syllogism your argument looks something like this:

-More people are heterosexual than homosexual
-Indeed, I am not homosexual
-Things that me and most other people don't do are weird and wrong

:-Homosexuality is wrong.

To point out the obvious, P3 is rather problematic.

Furthermore, as UnitedInChrist points out, the reference to 'figuring out' something is just where you're wrong - if sexuality was chosen, then maybe you'd have more of an argument. (Although not by my lights.) But as it isn't, there is no case of 'figuring out' what you're 'supposed' to do - you are what you are.

deuteronomy 225 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

But this debate is about whether you'd think it was wrong if you didn't believe in God....


Hi DMagoh, I did read the rules but I wanted to discuss this particular question with theist members, since due to the nature of the question there is not much to be had from discussing it with atheists/agnostics. I apologise for hijacking the forum and disrespecting the rules....I'm willing to take my due punishment...but in the meantime I'll try and get some debate.

 

[Kirilov]

"I am what I am and thats all that I am."

Popeye The Sailorman

 

[Bianca87]

Yes, I would think it is wrong. I can't imagine a man not being attracted to women. Besides that, it is kinda gross.

wow, the level of this debate is junior high-like.