If you are a creationist.

[Hespera]

AVSEZ...

Ask Hespera if it was common sense that motivated those guys to go hunting for Elijah, after Elisha said he had been taken up to Heaven in a flaming chariot.

hespera sez;;;

Sounds as sensible as getting on a camel to try to follow a star. You really believe all this stuff, dont you?

Speaking of chariots, you never did say if you actually do think, sensible and all, that there will be chariots dashing about here and there in this "final battle'.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sounds as sensible as getting on a camel to try to follow a star. You really believe all this stuff, dont you?

Yes.

Speaking of chariots, you never did say if you actually do think, sensible and all, that there will be chariots dashing about here and there in this "final battle'.

Do what?

That's the first I've heard of this.

Can I have the 411, please?

 

[Thomas Anderson]

A. From goo to the zoo to you.

B. Goddidit.


Which is more laughable? Of course I already know most your answers. Just want to thank most of you for confirming MANY verses in the Bible to be true. Along with over 2000 prophecies already fullfilled the Bible still applies and tells it like it is today.


1 Corinthians 2: 9 -14 “ However, as it is written; “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Incase your wondering, if your not a christian you are the ones "without the Spirit "

Who brings the next verse to life? "Basic Doctrine'? correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 'Basic Doctrine' baloney with extra baloney and a side order of baloney?
or is it dreams added to wishes with an extra helping of hope? or are both of those wrong and it's,
none of us know so lets add this to this and hope that it's enough to get us all into heaven,
but don't worry it's all garbage because there aint no heaven anyway so what does it matter? "

1 Corinthians 1:18-24 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written; “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him. God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified; a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

As a christian with Gods Spirit within, it is often easy to pick out the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4: 4-6 “You dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.”

Thats only about 16 verses so far, there are lots more. Dont you find it interesting that they speak of you in the Bible. Written over two to four thousand years ago and yet talking about the people living today. Would that not be easier to search for the truth of? Only two to four thousand years, not two to four billion. The question usually is "DO YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW?" And there is also that big matter of pride.
I picked "B" by the way, from goo to the zoo to you, takes far too much faith. Here is a quote from outside the Bible.

“If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents- the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e., Materialism and Astronomy---are mere accidental by products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset. C.S.Lewis.

 

[Hespera]

Who would read a post that starts off with cra[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]imo like "goo to zoo to you"?

 

[AV1611VET]

B. Goddidit.

For the win ---

 

[Thomas Anderson]

"In the beginning (time) God (force) created (action) the heavens (space) and the earth. (matter)

 

[Hespera]

Open with the truth? What makes you think you have any idea what the truth is?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No, I'm not --- unless you consider Basic Doctrine "odd".

CF rules prevent me from commenting fruther.

I've seen their exegeses, and come to the conclusion that if they ran the world like they interpret the Bible, and used the Bible as their Operations Manual, we'd all be doomed.

After all, they "see" slavery, genocide, and murder in the Bible --- and that's just for starters.

Point is, one's view of Genesis 1 doesn't influence one's exegesis of the Bible. How one interprets Genesis 6-9 (Noah), Exodus' depiction of Moses, the message of Jesus in the NT, etc, isn't necessarily reflected in one's interpretation of Genesis 1.

Which supports my point --- how can you spot a fake dollar bill, if you don't know what a real one even looks like?

Which begs the question: which, of all bills, are the 'real' one? Of those faiths which purport to offer their own objective justifications, none have proven themselves above the rest.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

"In the beginning (time) God (force) created (action) the heavens (space) and the earth. (matter)

Where does the Bible distinguish "the heavens" as 'space', and "the earth" as 'matter' (in any meaningful sense of the words)?

 

[ragarth]

Who would read a post that starts off with cra[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]imo like "goo to zoo to you"?

That's actually a great phrase, I like it. "From the goo to the zoo to you"

 

[Thomas Anderson]

I keep forgetting Hespera, you know everything. So then you would know if I knew what truth was or not.
Is there such a thing as something that is always true all the time? Yes, there is. For example, "Something cannot bring itself into existence." This is an absolutely true statement. In order for something to bring itself into existence, it would have to exist in order to be able to perform an action. But if it already existed, then it isn't possible to bring itself into existence since it already exists. Likewise, if it does not exist then it has no ability to perform any creative action since it didn't exist in the first place. Therefore, "Something cannot bring itself into existence" is an absolute truth.
If we ever hope to determine if there is such a thing as truth apart from cultural and personal preferences, we must acknowledge that we are then aiming to discover something greater than ourselves, something that transcends culture and individual inclinations. To do this is to look beyond ourselves and outside of ourselves. In essence, it means we are looking for God. God would be truth, the absolute and true essence of being and reality who is the author of all truth. If you are interested in truth beyond yourself, then you must look to God.
John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. Of course, most philosophers and skeptics will dismiss His claim, but for the Christian, He is the mainstay of hope, security, and guidance. Jesus, who walked on water, claimed to be divine, rose from the dead, and said that He was the truth and the originator of truth. If Jesus is wrong, then we should ignore Him. But, if He is right, then it is true that we should listen to Him.
The eyewitnesses wrote what they saw. They were with Him. They watched Him perform many miracles, heal the sick, calm a storm with a command, and even rise from the dead. Either you believe or dismiss these claims. If you dismiss them, that is your prerogative. But, if you accept them, then you are faced with decisions to make about Jesus. What will you believe about Him? What will you decide about Him? Is He true? Is what He said true? Only two thousand years ago did Jesus walk the earth. Not two billion. Should be pretty easy to find out the "truth" dont you think?

 

[ragarth]

I keep forgetting Hespera, you know everything. So then you would know if I knew what truth was or not.
Is there such a thing as something that is always true all the time? Yes, there is. For example, "Something cannot bring itself into existence." This is an absolutely true statement. In order for something to bring itself into existence, it would have to exist in order to be able to perform an action. But if it already existed, then it isn't possible to bring itself into existence since it already exists. Likewise, if it does not exist then it has no ability to perform any creative action since it didn't exist in the first place. Therefore, "Something cannot bring itself into existence" is an absolute truth.
If we ever hope to determine if there is such a thing as truth apart from cultural and personal preferences, we must acknowledge that we are then aiming to discover something greater than ourselves, something that transcends culture and individual inclinations. To do this is to look beyond ourselves and outside of ourselves. In essence, it means we are looking for God. God would be truth, the absolute and true essence of being and reality who is the author of all truth. If you are interested in truth beyond yourself, then you must look to God.
John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. Of course, most philosophers and skeptics will dismiss His claim, but for the Christian, He is the mainstay of hope, security, and guidance. Jesus, who walked on water, claimed to be divine, rose from the dead, and said that He was the truth and the originator of truth. If Jesus is wrong, then we should ignore Him. But, if He is right, then it is true that we should listen to Him.
The eyewitnesses wrote what they saw. They were with Him. They watched Him perform many miracles, heal the sick, calm a storm with a command, and even rise from the dead. Either you believe or dismiss these claims. If you dismiss them, that is your prerogative. But, if you accept them, then you are faced with decisions to make about Jesus. What will you believe about Him? What will you decide about Him? Is He true? Is what He said true? Only two thousand years ago did Jesus walk the earth. Not two billion. Should be pretty easy to find out the "truth" dont you think?

Gotta disagree with you here, we cannot absolutely know that something cannot bring itself into existence. First, my take on perceptive vs absolute truth: http://www.christianforums.com/t7364355-2/#post51593195

Now, as per this specific instance, we do not fully know yet if time travel is possible, ergo it's possible that something can bring itself into existence by a future instance of itself doing so to it's past. This is a causality loop, and hypothetically possible if time travel is possible. That is aside the point though, the fact is we can't know something is absolutely true because we cannot know all the possibilities regarding it. Even in terms of something that I cannot come up with an explanation for, it is possible that there is something I can't think of to explain it, the only way to rule out the possibility of the unknown is to know everything- to be omniscient. Ergo one cannot know absolute truths without being omniscient, and you as far as I can tell, are not an omniscient entity.

 

[Thomas Anderson]

Quoteth Frank Zindler: To believe that consciousness can survive the wreck of the brain is like believing that 70 mph can survive the wreck of the car.

The spirit can survive anything.

 

[ragarth]

Quoteth Frank Zindler: To believe that consciousness can survive the wreck of the brain is like believing that 70 mph can survive the wreck of the car.

The spirit can survive anything.

Reply to my post, not my siggy. One is of value to this discussion, the other is responded to only as a means of ignoring my argument. If you'd like to discuss the volatility of spirits, make a new thread for that.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I keep forgetting Hespera, you know everything. So then you would know if I knew what truth was or not.
Is there such a thing as something that is always true all the time? Yes, there is. For example, "Something cannot bring itself into existence." This is an absolutely true statement.

No, it is not. Many experiments (Casimir effect, any radioactive decay experiment, etc) demonstrate that things can spontaneous come into existence without any prior cause (i.e., "bring itself into existence").

In order for something to bring itself into existence, it would have to exist in order to be able to perform an action.

You assume that the action requires an actor. This assumption is quite false.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that there are absolute truths: "1 + 1 = 2", for instance.

If we ever hope to determine if there is such a thing as truth apart from cultural and personal preferences, we must acknowledge that we are then aiming to discover something greater than ourselves, something that transcends culture and individual inclinations. To do this is to look beyond ourselves and outside of ourselves. In essence, it means we are looking for God. God would be truth, the absolute and true essence of being and reality who is the author of all truth. If you are interested in truth beyond yourself, then you must look to God.

Then you have defined the word 'God' to be so vague as to lose all theological meaning. We can look for absolute truth in mathematics and logic, but I would hardly deify Euler's Identity (e[sup]iθ[/sup] + 1 = 0).

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. Of course, most philosophers and skeptics will dismiss His claim, but for the Christian, He is the mainstay of hope, security, and guidance. Jesus, who walked on water, claimed to be divine, rose from the dead, and said that He was the truth and the originator of truth. If Jesus is wrong, then we should ignore Him. But, if He is right, then it is true that we should listen to Him.

False dichotomy: the third option, which turns out to be far more probably than the others, is that Jesus simply didn't exist. He wasn't right or wrong: he never made the statements attributed to him.

The eyewitnesses wrote what they saw.

a) these reports were written decades after the alleged events, b) only a scant few 'eyewitnesses' actually reported anything (the political and religious historians of the time record exactly nothing...), and c) what few reports exist are wildly inconsistent (there were one - no two! - humans at the tomb - no they were angels!).

They were with Him. They watched Him perform many miracles, heal the sick, calm a storm with a command, and even rise from the dead. Either you believe or dismiss these claims. If you dismiss them, that is your prerogative.

Indeed: you have given us no reason to accept this undeniably farfetched claims.

But, if you accept them, then you are faced with decisions to make about Jesus. What will you believe about Him? What will you decide about Him? Is He true? Is what He said true? Only two thousand years ago did Jesus walk the earth. Not two billion. Should be pretty easy to find out the "truth" dont you think?

Indeed: and the evidence shows that, not only did Jesus not do the miracles attributed to him, but that he didn't even exist!
Hmm, Mr. Anderson. You disappoint me.

 

[AV1611VET]

Which begs the question: which, of all bills, are the 'real' one? Of those faiths which purport to offer their own objective justifications, none have proven themselves above the rest.

You're from England, is that correct?

Even so --- can you spot which picture has the fake currency?

...

 

[AV1611VET]

You're from England, is that correct?

Even so --- can you spot which picture has the fake currency?

...

While you're thinking it over, WC, let me say this:

This is how I see other religions --- like Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, etc.

I can spot the real deal from the fake.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You're from England, is that correct?

Even so --- can you spot which picture has the fake currency?

...

Neither are legal tender, so they're both fake .

While you're thinking it over, WC, let me say this:

This is how I see other religions --- like Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, etc.

I can spot the real deal from the fake.

Oh, I'm sure you can. But I'm interested in the how: how can you distinguish the real religion (I'm guessing some derivation of Christianity) from every other possible religious belief system?

Though this may take us off the topic of creationism, and I think we've discussed this umpteen times before...

 

[Thomas Anderson]

Where does the Bible distinguish "the heavens" as 'space', and "the earth" as 'matter' (in any meaningful sense of the words)?
Herbert Spencer was noted for one great discovery, it was a categorical contribution that he made. He discovered that all reality, all that exists in the universe can be contained in five categories…time,force,action,space and matter. Spencer even listed them in that order. You cant have space unless there is time to put it in. You cant have matter unless you have space to put it in. Which brings us to the very first verse of the Bible. Pretty big coincidence if you think about it. Genesis1:1 “In the beginning,” that’s time, “God” that’s force’ “created” that’s action, “the heavens,” that’s space, “and the earth.” thats matter. Genesis 1:1 states what man did not find out until the 19th century. Just an old book, a fairy tale some say.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Where does the Bible distinguish "the heavens" as 'space', and "the earth" as 'matter' (in any meaningful sense of the words)?

Herbert Spencer was noted for one great discovery, it was a categorical contribution that he made. He discovered that all reality, all that exists in the universe can be contained in five categories…time,force,action,space and matter. Spencer even listed them in that order.

This 'contribution' is as valid as Aristotle's Four Humours: it's just wrong. There is no more validity in Spencer's 19[sup]th[/sup] philosophical pseudo-science (which modern Creationists have unfortunately latched on), than there is in Flat Earth-ism, or geocentrism, or any other archaic notion.

Unless, of course, you can actually demonstrate these claims.

You cant have space unless there is time to put it in. You cant have matter unless you have space to put it in. Which brings us to the very first verse of the Bible. Pretty big coincidence if you think about it.

Not really: these are intuitive concepts that any child could deduce. The real kicker is that that science has shown that such intuitive concepts about the nature of space, time, and reality, are quite baseless (qv. Quantum Mechanics, General and Special Relativity, etc).

Genesis1:1 “In the beginning,” that’s time, “God” that’s force’ “created” that’s action, “the heavens,” that’s space, “and the earth.” thats matter. Genesis 1:1 states what man did not find out until the 19th century. Just an old book, a fairy tale some say.

Indeed: you've just inserted the words 'time', 'force', 'action', 'space', and 'matter', to make the religious text of Bronze-age nomads fit the century-old philosophical mumblings of a distinguished biologist.

Though I gotta say, even I haven't heard this one before.