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If being homosexual is a sin, then why did God create homosexuals?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by soul_on_fire, Aug 22, 2008.

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  1. soul_on_fire

    soul_on_fire Junior Member

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    People can't choose their sexuality, it's just the way they are.
    Why did God create people like that and then not allow them to express their feelings?
    What's wrong with being homosexual anyway?
    If two people find true love does it really matter that they're of the same gender?
    Isn't discriminating homosexual couples like discrimination couples with a large age gap or of different nationalities?
    Just like your sexuality, you can't decide when you were born or where you were born, yet different ages and nationalities are acceptable.
    Myself, I am not homosexual, but I just don't understand why homosexuality is not acceptable.

    Thanks for answers ;)
     
    Eve_Sundancer likes this.
  2. ebia

    ebia Senior Contributor

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    Because homosexuality is currently an issue that tends to stir up more heat than light there are specific subfora for discussion of homosexual issues. Therefore I'm not going to say much about homosexuality as such, but to talk about some general principles.


    Being homosexual is not a sin. Sex outside of marriage falls short of God's purpose for sex.


    Not every feeling I might want to express is constructive, particularly when I am part of and a product of a fallen creation.


    That would depend on one's understanding of the purposes of marriage - both practical and symbolic on a larger scale. The marriage of complements is a large theme underlying a lot of biblical ideas (YHWH and Israel, Jesus and the Church, Heaven and Earth,...). All those are marriages of different and complimentary things, not of like things.

    Apparently not.
     
  3. WashedByTheWater

    WashedByTheWater Junior Member

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    Its heavily debated if Homosexuality is a sin or not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2008
  4. arunma

    arunma Flaming Calvinist

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    If murder is a sin, then why did God create murderers?

    If I may ask, what's the real question here? I perceive that perhaps you're not actually asking about homosexuality, but about the sovereignty of God and why he would create people knowing that they would sin. Or perhaps I'm wrong, and you really were just asking about homosexuality. Either way, I could be more helpful to you if you clarify.
     
  5. Stinker

    Stinker Senior Veteran

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    The reason conservative churches teach that homosexuality is a sinful condition to be in (living with the daily mindset and impulses) and the acts resulting from it, is because of what scholars are starting to realize concerning the word arsenokoities . This word is found in (1Cor.6:9) and (1Tim.1:10). Down through the centuries this word has been translated to mean a number of different things. It has been translated as 'masturbater' 'pervert' 'immoral person' 'abusers of mankind' and today's: 'homosexual' . Conservative scholars claim that the Apostle Paul was just coining the term male-bedder from (Lev.18:22) Thout shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. There are at least 5 different Old Testament Hebrew words for 'abomination' and the same word in (Lev.18:22) is used consistently through to (Deut.27:15). It is used in the way of idolatry, abhorrence, and custom. This shows that there was meant to be a stark contrast between the ways of the Gentile and the Hebrew people.

    In the 1st century, a church made up of only Gentiles would not have been aware of the Leviticus passages. If they had received any copies of the letters that were sent to the Corinthians and Timothy they would have been at a loss as to what the Apostle was meaning with his invention of such a word as 'arsenokoites' .
     
  6. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    Nobody is born a prisoner of homosexuality. There is nothing in behavioral genetics to indicate that, but that is what they gay rights people would have you believe. The best they can do, if you're liberal with what they found, is that some people are more prone to homosexual temptations. That doesn't mean that they are locked in to being homosexual, and that's not an excuse for homosexual behavior.

    Think about this. Humans are naturally selfish and prone to greed, does that make greed less of a sin? There are some people who are prone to having short and fiery tempers, does that make this behavior less of a sin? There are kleptomaniacs and nymphomaniacs out there - does that make their thieving, fornication, and adultery less sinful, or not sinful? The answer to all these questions is of course not. Homosexuality is no different. People are tempted, and sin is sin - no matter how strong the temptation is or how weak the person is.
     
  7. soul_on_fire

    soul_on_fire Junior Member

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    Well murder is different because in the end you can just not kill the person, but you can't control your sexuality.

    Well i think i was asking about both.
    Why did he create people knowing they would sin?
    And why would he consider homosexuality a sin?
     
  8. unkern

    unkern National Guard

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    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20010509/ctvnews88910?s_name=&no_ads=

    Homosexuals arnt born neither are murderers born they are made that way, the devil perverts that which is good.

    Leviticus 20:13 says:

    If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    Homosexuality is a sin, did you know that the average age of death for homosexuals is about 45?

    He created people with the choice to sin, but he created them for himself.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2008
  9. soul_on_fire

    soul_on_fire Junior Member

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    Then why is it that some people notice that they are attracted to their own gender around the time puberty starts?
    Wouldn't that show that as soon as their sexuality starts to bloom they are already homosexual?
    And if they weren't born that way, where did they pick up their homosexuality?

    Does that mean God hates homosexuals?
    And why is it only when a man lies with a man and not when a woman lies with a woman?
    Why is homosexuality detestable?
    It doesn't hurt anyone or anything like that, yet it can give two people love where they may not have been able to find it with someone of the opposite gender.

    Could you tell me where you got that statistic?
    To back up your point? ;)
    Quite a bit of statistics are just made up on the spot, showing the origin makes it more reliable.

    Why is it that if two heterosexual people find true love together it's ok, but if two homosexual people have the exact same feeling towards each other it's wrong?
    If you put aside all the sexual activities and leave just the feeling the people share towards each other, is it still a sin?
    If so, where's the line between bad homosexual love and good strong feeling of friendship between two people of the same sex?

    Couldn't homosexuals be God's way of keeping the population on Earth in proportion?
    If every woman had as many babies as she possibly could in a lifetime and there were no homosexuals so there would be a lot more pregnancies, the world would become overpopulatded which would lead to world wide chaos.
    With homosexuals people harmlessly satisfy their needs and keep the population steady.
    That's actualy a plus for homosexuality ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2008
  10. Although I am unsure if homosexuality is wrong or not, I often wonder what environmental and psychological components are involved. For example, I wonder if early sexual abuse may be a factor in some present homosexual behaviors.
     
  11. unkern

    unkern National Guard

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    Homosexuality is based on the factors that you are raised with, for instance if you grow up with 2 homosexual parents your most likely going to be homosexual, or if your entire life women have treated you like garbage your going to find an attraction to the thing that is giving you good attention, or for alot of men that have problems with porn they look for the next best thing all the way until it leads up to another man.

    God does not hate the sinner he hates the sin, you simply get punished for your sin.
    Homosexual goes both ways 1 Corinthians 6:9 says:
    "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders" Look what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah

    Homosexuality is dangerous because of the spread of disease, the fad of following it, the fact that Gods first commandment to us was "be fruitful and multiply". You may want to take a look into some of the homosexual cultures in Brazil. They take there boys at about the age of 15 up a cabin with the old men and sodomize them and rape them to "make them men".

    Heres some sites to look at:
    http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/jun/05060606.html
    http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/bates/050607
    In fact take a look into www.nambla.org its a group that trys to recruit boys as homosexuals.

    I only mentioned men because I thought that was the main focus.
    Be careful how you describe love, God is love. There are actually 3 words for love in the Hebrew ra'yah(friend), ahaba(diehard companionship), dod(intermingling of souls between you spouse and God, sex involved). You cannot have true love without God, and if God only allows true love between man and woman than you have your answer.

    You can be at ahava with another man David was with Jonathan, but he could not go any farther because he would not have God.

    The earth has actually become less proportionate, there are less people now than there were back in those days and that is because less people are having children and those that do only have 1-2. Where as in the old testament some would have up to 70 children.
     
  12. arunma

    arunma Flaming Calvinist

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    With all due respect, I believe you may be quite mistaken here. In a first century Gentile church, Gentile believers would have immense familiarity with Old Testament Scripture. I have at least two reasons for saying so. First, the New Testament Scriptures make frequent reference to the importance of the Old Testament. Paul taught the Gentile churches about the the immense value of the Scriptures that were already written,
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:16)
    The early church also valued the public reading of Scripture,
    Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. (1 Timothy 4:13)
    The book of Revelation is replete with allusions and direct references to the Old Testament, and cannot even be understood without the Old Testament Scriptures. This strongly suggests that the first century church would be saturated with the Old Testament.

    Because the New Testament Scriptures were not fully complete, and certainly not widely circulated in the first few decades of the church, the Old Testament was the Bible of the early church. It is inconceivable that the Gentiles would thus not be familiar with it. I doubt you will find many historical scholars who disagree.

    Before we can properly address this issu, it's important to address some of your presuppositions here. You seem to assume a priori that homosexuality is an inherited trait, and that it is sinful to have this trait. Whether homosexuality is inherited or is a matter of free choice is a subject of great debate, but for the purposes of this conversation I am willing to assume that homosexuality is inherited (I shall also assume that the word "marriage" refers to a union between a male and a female, thus excluding homosexual partnerships).

    This, however, does not make it right. The Bible teaches that all people, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are born intrinsically sinful. It also teaches that sexual lust and sexual activity outside of marriage are acts of sin. So whether a person is born homosexual or not becomes largely irrelevant. Homosexuals lust after people of the same sex and hetersexuals lust after people of the opposite sex. Both activities are sinful, and sometimes lead to the greater sin of non-marital sex. Homosexuals are not born into any special state of sin. But let us never deny that they are born into sin the same as heterosexuals, and they will go to hell unless they repent of sin and all false gods or religions, and confess Christ Jesus as the Lord.

    Now to address your questions. First, why would God create people knowing that they would sin? This is quite a deep question indeed, and no answer I can give will be adequate. The Bible teaches that God is without sin, and he does not create sin. He does, however, ordain that sin should be. He did not create the first two humans without knowing that they would sin and fall from his grace. This, however, was part of his plan to redeem humanity through Jesus Christ. As it says,
    He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:20-21)
    God seeks to glorify himself, because God is worthy of glory. He could gain glory for himself by creatin people who would serve him in perfect holiness. But he gains greater glory by redeeming sinful people though the death of his very own Son, and creating for himself a church of worshipers who adore him freely and without compulsion. To that end he ordained that sin would enter the world and that people would be born sinful: so that he could display his infinite mercy by shedding the blood of his Son on the Cross and atoning for our sin.

    And why does God consider homosexuality a sin specifically? It is a sin because it is a transgression of his covenant of marriage, which he ordained. Marriage does not simply exist so that people can be happy together. Nor does it exist merely as an outlet for sexual pleasure, or for the purpose of procreation. These things are all good consequences of marriage, but marriage exists for a much more profound purpose. Marriage is chiefly a living picture of the relationship between Christ and the church. Christ did not model his relationship with his people after a preexisting marriage institution. On the contrary, God created marriage to model the relationship he intended to have between himself and his people through his Son Jesus Christ. Homosexuality destroys the picture of Christ and his church, and perverts the story that God intended to tell through it. This is why it is wrong.

    Ultimately, homosexuality is not the grand sin to end all sins that some Republicans and other political conservatives make it out to be. It's just one symptom of a larger problem. That problem is rejection of Jesus Christ as the blessed and only Sovereign. The world was created by God through Jesus Christ, yet the world rejects Christ as its King. Instead the majority of the world has turned to a plethora of false religions, and a few to atheism. And so they exchange the glory of God for ungodly pleasures, just one of which is homosexuality. All who practice false religion or no religion will go to hell, because Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. As such, homosexuality should point us to the deeper spiritual problem of open rebellion against the world's Creator. Instead of preaching to you about homosexuality, I would instead admonish you to consider Jesus Christ and his Gospel.
     
  13. newbeliever02072005

    newbeliever02072005 Have Courage to Trust God Supporter

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    Mod Hat On


    Thread closed for staff review


    Mod Hat Off
     
  14. bubblefish

    bubblefish used to be cat_goes_meow

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    MOD HAT POST

    Thread re-opened and moved from 'Questions by Non-Christians' to 'Ethics and Morality'.
     
  15. I can't really respond to the first post since I am a homosexual Christian and don't believe it is wrong, but did want to reply to this post.

    I was abused when I was young and am homosexual now. I don't believe that past assault and abuse is the determining cause - my partner was not abused during her childhood but is also gay and there are no determining 'environmental factors' as to why. However, it can be part of it. I don't know the exact reason why I have this orientation - I didn't decide one day that 'I don't like guys because of what he did, I will like girls instead', it just sort of happened. I have statistics on this somewhere and the common links but will have to get back to you once I find it :)

    And so every homosexual is going to end up diseased? There aren't any precautions to take? Or is automatically going to sodomize young children? Just because there are people out there who give these stereotypes does not mean that every homosexual person is ill or a monster. I can tell you about monsters - and they can be very straight men... look at my past. The man who constantly raped me, shoved things into me and did all he could to convince me that I was worthless because I was young and female! And with disease, there is still a risk of diseases in any heterosexual relationship as well, it just isn't seen as bad or as common. However, with protection and common sense the homosexual community can be just as safe as anyone else in relation to disease and illness.

    So under that assumption, that basically means that people are going to be straight if they have straight parents? I know quite a lot of people and can tell you that is not the case. My parents are very against homosexual relationships, as are my partners.. and look at us, we both don't conform to their ways. Or almost every person who was raped/abused is going to turn gay as they automatically hate the gender which did this to them? Yes, the violence/rape may be partly true in my case but I know it is not in many more. I did have a site with statistics on all of this which I can't find now :doh: Will keep searching through my files and come back with it later if I can.

    But if you would like an interesting read is this article by the American Psychological Association on the rearing of children of homosexual parents and their wellbeing LINK.
     
  16. BigBadWlf

    BigBadWlf Guest

    Sexual orientation is not a prison. No more than being non-white is a prison or being left handed is a prison

    All the evidence says otherwise.


    Sadly this tactic is and has been used for generations by racists to justify their personal prejudices. A racist will attempt to associate people of color with criminals and criminal acts. It is a sad and sick way of thinking of and treating other people and has no place in civil discourse.
     
  17. BigBadWlf

    BigBadWlf Guest

    Oh yeah…the Spitzer study.

    First off you are aware that this study failed its peer review correct?
    A peer review of a scientific study is when the research and write up of a study is given over to experts in the field to look for problems in the experiment model, the data collection, the statistical analysis and so on.

    Spitzer’s study failed for several reason. One was his study sample. Spitzer could not find individuals willing to claim they changed sexual orientation. So he went to various ex-gay ministries asking for such individuals NARTH and exodus being the primary provider of subjects. They were able to provide him only 143 "ex-gays" and 57 "ex-lesbians. This is in itself telling as groups such as exodus claim to have changed the sexual orientations of “hundreds of thousands” of homosexuals.

    Of these none were homosexual to before entering into ‘reparative therapy’. The sixteen men and thirty seven women who claimed to now be heterosexuals all were employees of the ex-gay ministry that referred them. Simply put, the only people Spitzer could find willing to say they had changed sexual orientation are those paid to make such claims.

    To put a further nail in the coffin of Spitzer study, last year a researcher attempted to track down the individuals who participated in the Spitzer study and said they were now heterosexuals. Of the eleven men ten admitted that they lied and had never changed sexual orientation


    All the evidence says otherwise.

    again this tactic is and has been used for generations by racists to justify their personal prejudices. A racist will attempt to associate people of color with criminals and criminal acts. It is a sad and sick way of thinking of and treating other people and has no place in civil discourse.

    Do you follow all the laws of Leviticus?

    I doubt it
    Do you shave?
    Wear clothing made of different fabrics?
    Allow people with glasses to attend your church?
    Keep slaves?


    I’m more than willing to bet that you shave, wear clothing made of mixed fabrics, don’t keep slaves and so on. It is interesting how those who don’t follow the laws of Leviticus are so willing to inflict cherry picked verses out of this book to attack a minority and defend prejudice and discrimination.


    Even though you personally do not follow the many laws of Leviticus yet you do not seem to have a problem using Leviticus laws to attack a minority.

    Using Leviticus to justify prejudice and discrimination has many issues

    First – we live under a new covenant. Jesus did away with the law and put in place his commandment
    A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. John 13:34

    Promoting or justifying discrimination against a minority is not loving mo matter how one tries to twist the justification it is an act of hate.

    If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 1 John 4:20





    A further problem is one of translation. Leviticus has many injunctions against engaging in sex – specifically carnal knowledge. However carnal knowledge is not used in either Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 the word that is used is shakab. It is popularly translated to mean to lay (lie) with but there is a problem with that translation. Shakab is used 52 times in the old testament and is always used to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.


    Shakab Means "Rape" not copulation, not carnal relations…rape.


    Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 means that a man shall not force, or in any way coerce, another man to have sex, in the way that a man is allowed to force sex upon his wife. In other words, man is not allowed to rape a man, it is an abomination.
    A man raping a man is no more a description of homosexuality than a man raping a woman is a description of heterosexuality.






    This is one of the more common lies about homosexuals told by the religious right.

    It was first fabricated by Paul Cameron.

    Cameron was expelled form the American Psychiatric Association in 1984 for ethics violation. He was found to have fabricated research data and had blatantly misrepresented the legitimate research of real scientists.

    After his expulsion he tried to pass himself off as a sociologist but his reputation preceded him.

    He then went on to found the Family Research Council and has continued to lie and make up data about gays and lesbians.

    The “study” you bring up involved Cameron selectively picking obituaries from small gay/lesbian oriented newspapers in San Francisco at the height of the AIDS crisis. He rejected the obituaries of anyone over 50 and then compared them to death notices form a nursing home in rural Kansas.



    And people like Paul Cameron can choose to bare false witness against a minority or they can choose to tell the truth. Sadly Cameron rejects the truth
     
  18. BigBadWlf

    BigBadWlf Guest

    No experiential, social, psychological or familial factor has been found associated with homosexuality.

    Gays and lesbians are not sexually molested as children any more often than heterosexuals are
     
  19. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    You don't have any control over your skin color, you have a lot of control over how you can behave.

    Excuse me?

    Professor stands firm in 'no gay gene' theory, refutes Gifford's stance

    Some of the people he quoted:

    "Homosexuality Is Not Hardwired," Dr. Francis S. Collins, Head Of The Human Genome Project

    Dr. Abbott has citations for his Baker quotes here and his Plomin quotes here.

    Edward Stein, who is pro-gay, is cited here as saying this:

    "Genes in themselves cannot directly specify any behavior or psychological phenomenon. Instead, genes direct a particular pattern of RNA synthesis, which in turn may influence the development of psychological dispositions and the expression of behaviors. There are many intervening pathways between a gene and a disposition or a behavior…No one has presented evidence in support of such a simple and direct link between genes and sexual orientation."

    I'm not doing anything of the sort. I'm saying that there is no excuse for what the Bible says is immoral behavior. There's nothing especially black or white or gay or straight about it. If the Bible says that doing X is a sin, it's a sin, period.
     
  20. David Brider

    David Brider Liberal fundamentalist progressive evangelical.

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    Sexual orientation isn't about how you behave.

    David.
     
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