ICONS OR IDOLS In the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches

[gzt]

I don't worship icons either. HTH. HAND.

 

[Qoheleth]

Mortanius, Have you ever been to a Lutheran, Good Friday sevice where in this Service there is the, The Veneration of the Cross?

While the Reproaches are sung, the faithful file up to the unveiled cross and venerate the cross. This veneration may inlcude genuflection (once or three times) and kissing the feet of the corpus.

This is a Lutheran practice. What are your thoughts about this type of veneration?

The center of our prayer life is the one God in Trinity, but we don't pray alone, we pray as one united Church.

Yes Indeed, we are part of the One, Holy catholic and Apostalic church. This is the meaning of communion. Just as the Trinity is a communion, we also share in this communion with the saints in Christ.

Q

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I appreciate this presentation. Some of it I have looked at in other links and even books.

However, if you noticed in my post I mention that Icons become vehicles of such prayers to the Saints (even if as intercessors)

The image becomes an idol at that point. Does it not?

One can ask the intercession of saints without icons and in fact we Orthodox do it all the time. So an icon is not necessary for asking the intercession of saints. We do not need a vehicle. Having icons of saints is just like having pictures of your great grandparents that you never met. Yes, you've heard about them and all the stories that your parents and grandparents tell but a picture, an image, just makes the person more real.

I think we need to define idolatry if we are going to understand each other in this conversation. Idolatry is anything worshipped in place of the One, Triune God. We Orthodox worship none but the Trinity. Period. Just a visit to one of our churches on Sunday during the Divine Liturgy would diffuse any other conclusion.

It is meet and right to worship the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity One in Essence and Undivided...

The Scriptures are clearly show that matter is good and created by God. God has (and does) use matter to convey His presence and His blessing. There are the handkerchiefs of Paul, the bones of Elijah (or Elisha--drawing a blank), the water that Naaman dipped himself in and the Eucharist itself (though I know you have a different understanding of it.) The point is that Creation, redeemed in Christ, is offered back to God in worship. In Christ, the Theanthropos, God had been joined to Creation in a new way. And He uses Creation to bestow His mercy on us. It should have always been so since the garden itself was to be the point of communion for man and his Creator.

And so for us, icons illuminate this new connection of the Divine and the created.

"[Christ] is the icon of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." --Colossians 1:15

"I do not worship matter: I worship the Creator of matter who became matter for my sake, who willed to take his abode in matter: who worked out my salvation through matter. Never will I cease honouring the matter which wrought my salvation! I honour it but not as God." --St. John of Damascus

 

[Qoheleth]

Idolatry is anything worshipped in place of the One, Triune God. We Orthodox worship none but the Trinity. Period

Well said. The Icon itself nor the Saint is being worshipped. Enough said.

Q

 

[OrthodoxTexan]

...I'll be refraining from Worshipping Icons.

Sweet. We have found common ground. We don't worship icons either.

 

[gtsecc]

Archeologists have discovered icons in pre-Christian synagogues.



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[Alexis OCA]

I believe I did say so.

You didn't even come close. Nor do you show that you even comprehend the underlying theology of icons in the Orthodox Church. Why is it so hard to comprehend the that in the Orthodox Church the worship (latreia) given to God is completely different from the honor (time) of love (agape) and respect, or even veneration (proskynesis), "paid to all those endowed with some dignity" (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. III, 40) and that this qualitative difference carries over to our understanding of icons?

 

[Alexis OCA]

Exactly! The Icon was taken from being a decorative and inspirational and educational image, to becoming glorified as something divine!

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

"glorified as something divine"???? You read THAT into my post?

Going back to TAW for some refreshment.

 

[MORTANIUS]

Archeologists have discovered icons in pre-Christian synagogues.



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WOW! Now you've changed my mind. I was wrong all this time. The fact that Archaeologists discovered pre-Christian images in synagogues totally proves everything in my post as grossly erroneous!

By the way, can you detect my sarcasm or do I have to explain my sarcasm as well?

 

[MORTANIUS]

I believe this post is done. No one is discussing the post, only their entrenched ideologies that don't even contest the point of the post (which is how Icons are used, making them Idols)

Originally my exposure to Orthodox Christian and even Roman Catholic friends made me doubt Lutheran doctrines and understandings.

I admit that at one point I was even tempted to become Orthodox Christian. Now I know that I already am.

I refuse to accept such ideologies as Iconic worship on blind faith. The arguments in favour of Iconic worship simply do not stand up against the actual and original application of icons as inspirations.

 

[gzt]

Your problem isn't with icons, it's with prayer to the saints.

 

[RedneckAnglican]

WOW! Now you've changed my mind. I was wrong all this time. The fact that Archaeologists discovered pre-Christian images in synagogues totally proves everything in my post as grossly erroneous!

By the way, can you detect my sarcasm or do I have to explain my sarcasm as well?

the sarcasm detector on my computer just exploded...

 

[MORTANIUS]

the sarcasm detector on my computer just exploded...

Sorry RedneckLutheran

 

[Qoheleth]

Originally my exposure to Orthodox Christian and even Roman Catholic friends made me doubt Lutheran doctrines and understandings.

Which Lutheran doctrines are you specifically referring to?

Your problem isn't with icons, it's with prayer to the saints.

Is this the case, Mortanius?

Q

 

[Dark Knight]

I admit that at one point I was even tempted to become Orthodox Christian.

I'll probably get a warning for this...but dare I say that some are genuinely relieved that you are over your temptation.

Is watching "American Idol" idol worship????

GO BO!!!

 

[Lotar]

Morty,

Let us try to clear things up, shall we?

First off, the clear fact is that your problem is not with Icons, but rather with prayer to and veneration of Saints. Unless, that is, you propose it is okay to pray to Saints, as long a Icons are not present.

Secondly, your essay is rife with logical fallacies; especially, though not exclusively, in the use of begging the question, strawman and red herring fallacies.

Strawman
For example: "It is the belief that they must be prayed to, instead of praying directly to God..."
No one teaches that Icons are to be prayed to, and nobody teaches that Saints should be prayed to instead of God, but rather in addition. This is a strawman.

Red Herring
Your "Other Considerations" subsection is a perfect example of the red herring fallacy. What does depictions of the Father have to do with the subject matter you are presenting? Nothing.
Furthermore, if any of us were to hold Lutherans to the standard you are measuring Orthodoxy by, we could conclude that Lutheranism teaches everything from abortion to gay marriage to atheism.

Begging the Question
Let me just provide you with examples:
"Praying to Saints as intercessors... grossly separates us from God."
"Praying to Saints through Icons is what finally identifies Icons as a form of Idolatry."
You don't prove anything, you merely assert.
And that's not even touching upon your made up history, that fits your assumed premise.

Furthermore, some of these assertions just don't make sense; such as the condemnation of "praying for specific needs/outcomes." Is okay to just pray to shoot the breeze and say "wut up?" Off the top of my head, I can think of three main reasons for praying, and asking for something is usually at the top of the list.




Lotar's Rarely Heeded, But Helpfull, Advice
1.) Get some books on introductory philosophy and rules of debate, or better yet, enroll in a class or two at you local community college. Logical Fallacies only undermine your argument and credibility.
2.) Have some humility, and do not assume that if someone reads your post, the answers to their questions will be made abundantly clear. Consider that people may have read your essay and still need clarification.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I believe this post is done. No one is discussing the post, only their entrenched ideologies that don't even contest the point of the post (which is how Icons are used, making them Idols)

Originally my exposure to Orthodox Christian and even Roman Catholic friends made me doubt Lutheran doctrines and understandings.

I admit that at one point I was even tempted to become Orthodox Christian. Now I know that I already am.

I refuse to accept such ideologies as Iconic worship on blind faith. The arguments in favour of Iconic worship simply do not stand up against the actual and original application of icons as inspirations.

I don't think you put much effort into finding out how or why the Orthodox use icons. If you ever really want to pursue this question, visit a monastery or speak with a priest or an iconographer. Read the writings of St. John of Damascus. The place of icons in the Church is something we have spent a lot of time (and blood) defending.

As for joining us, we'll be here if you ever reconsider. But coming in means deposing oneself as supreme authority on theology and praxis. There is no place for a supreme infallible pontiff in Orthodoxy.

God bless,
Monica

 

[OrthodoxTexan]

No one is discussing the post, only their entrenched ideologies that don't even contest the point of the post (which is how Icons are used, making them Idols)...

I refuse to accept such ideologies as Iconic worship on blind faith. The arguments in favour of Iconic worship simply do not stand up against the actual and original application of icons as inspirations.

Down here in Texas we have people who simply repeat the same thing over and over until they convince themselves of the truth of their delusion. We call them Aggies.

 

[RedneckAnglican]

Down here in Texas we have people who simply repeat the same thing over and over until they convince themselves of the truth of their delusion. We call them Aggies.

alright...I was willing to be on your side, but you slammed the Aggies...that's it...no more help from me...

 

[MORTANIUS]

Your problem isn't with icons, it's with prayer to the saints.

Actually if you payed attention to what I posted, you would realize that the emphasis on praying to Saints is done through Icons.

Thats the issue.