"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them"

lone soldier

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Man could not keep the law in the OT, as a result of man's own voluntary actions. If I develop a heroin addiction, should the law suddenly not prosecute me for possession? After all, I CAN'T not have heroin at that point, withdrawal could kill me.

My opinion is this:

HELP the heroin addict. You can throw drug addicts in jail, but when they get out, they'll most likely not reform. You have to help them overcome their addiction, rather just penalizing them.

I suppose you might call me a bleeding-heart softy.

I value love and mercy, you value judgment and justice.
 
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lone soldier

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You think forcing reconciliation upon someone, despite their will that it not be so, is loving?

You're getting off topic.

I think this is unloving:

"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."
 
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laconicstudent

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My opinion is this:

HELP the heroin addict. You can throw drug addicts in jail, but when they get out, they'll most likely not reform. You have to help them overcome their addiction, rather just penalizing them.

I suppose you might call me a bleeding-heart softy.

I value love and mercy, you value judgment and justice.

And when the heroin addict refuses help? Valuing love and mercy and judgment and justice are not mutually exclusive.
 
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laconicstudent

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You're getting off topic.

I think this is unloving:

"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

You've already said that, why is it you can't answer my statement, but instead resort to this?

Anyways, it is loving. God is allowing people to make their own choices, even though such choices often put him in the position to condemn them.
 
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lone soldier

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And when the heroin addict refuses help?

When they're forcibly checked into rehab, they have no choice.

I suppose your answer might be, just kill them? But I don't roll that way, sorry. I take what Jesus said about love seriously.
 
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lone soldier

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You've already said that, why is it you can't answer my statement, but instead resort to this?

Anyways, it is loving. God is allowing people to make their own choices, even though such choices often put him in the position to condemn them.

I believe God is loving too. But NOT from the bible.

A simple reading of the bible says completely otherwise.
 
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laconicstudent

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When they're forcibly checked into rehab, they have no choice.

I suppose your answer might be, just kill them? But I don't roll that way, sorry. I take what Jesus said about love seriously.

It actually isn't. It would actually be jailing them, where they can receive treatment. Which is a punishment.
 
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Stryder06

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Every human being (aside from psychopaths, perhaps) have love.

Well, if you want to say God is doing these things we read about, then that is pretty cruel and harsh.
I say that not everyone has love because not everyone has God, and since God is love, one can only experience true love if they have God. That's my opinion though.

Is God bound by his own (created) laws? Yes or no?
Yes

If no, then the point is moot. If yes, then how is he the Almighty God? I'm honestly asking.

He isn't just Almighty, He is loving and just. It would go against His nature to go aganist His law because it is His law that brings order. It is His law that Satan rebelled against.

I would die for my wife. Not everyone else. I am not as saintly as I could be. I'm not perfect in and of myself, nor did I claim to be.
I'd die for my wife too, and a few other people I can think of. Question is, would you die for your wife if you knew before you married her that she would play the harlot every day after the wedding, lie to you about it and then leave you without any remorse, never to return?

Correct. But God made the rules and the penalties. He could have chosen something else, but didn't.
Thought the same thing brother. Trust me i've agonized about it, but it takes me right back to the other point. Think of it like this, do you think God wanted to experience what He did, knowing He'd only save some of the creation? If we spend X amount of time saying "He could have come up with something else" what makes you think that the Infinite didn't try to come up with another plan as well? This is what worked, and this is the way it had to be for it to work. I take it that far and leave it in God's hands. I'm saying this as gently as I know how, but somethings are better left in the hands of God through faith and not questioned, lest we find ourselves being led into sin by Satan.

Man's laws are not God's laws. In fact, the law you advocate is lawlessness, in one sense.

I think you missed the forest for the trees there. I was simply pointing out the principle, that's all. If we as sinners have a sense of what justice is, and if we as sinners can accept the judgment handed down by man, how much more so should we accept the judgment established by God?

Hear me out...

You do that, then go before the judge. He says, "You must be put to death for killing the officer." Uh-oh, you think! But then, another completely innocent man walks in and says, "I'll go in his place." The judge looks at him funny and says, "You can't. That is unjust. We cannot put an innocent man to death for the crime of the guilty."

I am a christian, but I ask you this: How is THAT in any way just? It's not.
Scenario doesn't work here and this is why. Christ could pay the sin debt for the entire world. In the above mentioned scenario the man couldn't pay my debt and that's why he wouldn't be allowed to. However, if there was a clause in the law that would allow for a substituion to be brought in, then it would be fine, the penalty of the law would be satisfied, and that would be that. Our system doesn't work that way. God's system did. He made the clause where His sacrifice would be more the sufficient for the lives of every mna, woman, and child who would be born on this earth. That is why it's just. And that's why rejection of His sacrifice is such a heinous act. Beyond high treason if you will.

Wow. A LOT of christians here would disagree with you. I'm not saying *I* do, but wow... you have just alienated the vast majority of christians who say God can do whatever he wants. Man would say this is HERESY.
Man you must be new around these parts lol. Trust me, me saying that God is bound by His own law is the least of my worries around here regarding "Heresies" ;)

I agree. Nevertheless, did you ask to be born? I know I didn't. When you bring something into this world, you have a RESPONSIBLITY to care for that thing and look after it. Even human parents know this. Should the PERFECT God be held to a lesser standard???
No, and He isn't. What better care could God have given the His Son Jesus? We don't know Christ the way we should because we won't get to know Him. The experiences that the disciples had are ours for the taking. We've just allowed ouselves to become distracted, and then complain to God becuase He won't barge in our lives and do what we want, when quiet is keep, if He did barge in we'd throw a hissy fit. And no I didn't ask to be born, but I know what awaits me should I remain faithful to my calling, and I tell you this much, words aren't enough to express how grateful I am for being created. I mean the King of the Universe is going to set up shop on this small planet. We will be His servants and He will be our God! Personal commuion with the Creator throughout all eternity? Yeah buddy gimme that :clap:

No, it would drive me to say "Loving". Holy to me, only tipifies the divine judgment, punishment and wrath aspects that christians so love.
Hey you can say loving too. That works for me. When I think "Holy" I think "Awesome" "Wonderful" "Matchless" "Incredible" "HOLY"!
 
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lone soldier

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So you are a Christian who doesn't believe in the Bible.

Along with the other 99% who don't. Because if they did, they would be stoning their children, not sitting where menstruating women sat, killing infidels and chopping off their hands for sinning. Of course they don't do that, because they select which parts to obey and which not to.

I believe in a God who is good, loving and merciful. Since the bible often contradicts such a being, I reject anything that tries to depict my God as such. I suspect many christians do the same.

Or they accept it and become angry, judgmental, vindictive, harsh people. Religion tends to do that to people. We become like that which we worship. That is why I find worshipping a God of love, mercy and goodness preferable to a malovolent, violent, angry deity. But that's me.
 
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Stryder06

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Yes, I am not a calvinist.

God and the devil, in the bible, often seem like they are working toward the same end. Jews know this, which is why they do not believe satan is in rebellion to God, but an instrument of his wrath. However, I do not believe that.

The bible says man is in bondage to sin and MUST sin, says romans. So, in the old testament, man COULD not keep the law, yet God decided to be cruel and harsh with them anyway. The people had no choice!

Not enough time tonight to give this an adequate response. I'll have one for you on this tomorrow.

Good night and may God bless you
 
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laconicstudent

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Along with the other 99% who don't. Because if they did, they would be stoning their children, not sitting where menstruating women sat, killing infidels and chopping off their hands for sinning. Of course they don't do that, because they select which parts to obey and which not to.

I believe in a God who is good, loving and merciful. Since the bible often contradicts such a being, I reject anything that tries to depict my God as such. I suspect many christians do the same.

Or they accept it and become angry, judgmental, vindictive, harsh people. Religion tends to do that to people. We become like that which we worship. That is why I find worshipping a God of love, mercy and goodness preferable to a malovolent, violent, angry deity. But that's me.

Except the deity you seek to build to your specifications does not necessarily exist. Worship what is real.
 
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lone soldier

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I say that not everyone has love because not everyone has God, and since God is love, one can only experience true love if they have God. That's my opinion though.

I don't agree with that.

Yes

[/b]
He isn't just Almighty, He is loving and just. It would go against His nature to go aganist His law because it is His law that brings order. It is His law that Satan rebelled against.

Then some would say he is not truly Almighty. I actually don't disagree, just saying.

I'd die for my wife too, and a few other people I can think of. Question is, would you die for your wife if you knew before you married her that she would play the harlot every day after the wedding, lie to you about it and then leave you without any remorse, never to return?

I've loved people like that.

Then I realized I must love myself first, then others second.

I wouldn't hunt her down and kill her. Unlike the passage I quoted, however.

Thought the same thing brother. Trust me i've agonized about it, but it takes me right back to the other point. Think of it like this, do you think God wanted to experience what He did, knowing He'd only save some of the creation? If we spend X amount of time saying "He could have come up with something else" what makes you think that the Infinite didn't try to come up with another plan as well?

Hard to say.

This is what worked, and this is the way it had to be for it to work. I take it that far and leave it in God's hands. I'm saying this as gently as I know how, but somethings are better left in the hands of God through faith and not questioned, lest we find ourselves being led into sin by Satan.

Fair enough.

I think you missed the forest for the trees there. I was simply pointing out the principle, that's all. If we as sinners have a sense of what justice is, and if we as sinners can accept the judgment handed down by man, how much more so should we accept the judgment established by God?

Eternal hellfire for stealing a chocolate bar is not just. It's barbaric.

Same with many judgments we read about in the bible.


Scenario doesn't work here and this is why. Christ could pay the sin debt for the entire world. In the above mentioned scenario the man couldn't pay my debt and that's why he wouldn't be allowed to. However, if there was a clause in the law that would allow for a substituion to be brought in, then it would be fine, the penalty of the law would be satisfied, and that would be that.

It's not just. And actually the old testament does say God won't punish the innocent in place of the wicked. Jews often cite this for why they will not accept Jesus.

Our system doesn't work that way. God's system did. He made the clause where His sacrifice would be more the sufficient for the lives of every mna, woman, and child who would be born on this earth. That is why it's just. And that's why rejection of His sacrifice is such a heinous act. Beyond high treason if you will.

Right, I understand that. Still seems like a roundabout way of doing things though.

Man you must be new around these parts lol. Trust me, me saying that God is bound by His own law is the least of my worries around here regarding "Heresies" ;)

Well it's mostly calvinists who say that anyway. My least favourite of all christian religions.

No, and He isn't. What better care could God have given the His Son Jesus? We don't know Christ the way we should because we won't get to know Him. The experiences that the disciples had are ours for the taking. We've just allowed ouselves to become distracted, and then complain to God becuase He won't barge in our lives and do what we want, when quiet is keep, if He did barge in we'd throw a hissy fit. And no I didn't ask to be born, but I know what awaits me should I remain faithful to my calling, and I tell you this much, words aren't enough to express how grateful I am for being created. I mean the King of the Universe is going to set up shop on this small planet. We will be His servants and He will be our God! Personal commuion with the Creator throughout all eternity? Yeah buddy gimme that :clap:

I'll say your attitude is a breath of fresh air compared to the religious gobbledeguck that most christians spew around here. At least you attempt to show why God is good, without being overly religious!

Hey you can say loving too. That works for me. When I think "Holy" I think "Awesome" "Wonderful" "Matchless" "Incredible" "HOLY"!

Fair enough.

I enjoyed talking with you.

Be blessed. :)
 
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lone soldier

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Except the deity you seek to build to your specifications does not necessarily exist. Worship what is real.

Hmm, interesting...

(My sky buddy is bigger than YOUR sky buddy?)

It's interesting because it is ONLY through personal experience, as I said before, that I do, in fact, KNOW that God is real. Now, you're trying to argue with me and tell me my experience is wrong? lol Good luck with that.

Makes sense too, for christians to defend the idea of the angry, vengeful, bloodthirsty image over a true, living God. Oh wait... no it doesn't. I guess I should discard my personal experience and be an atheist then instead, huh? Yeah.

Prove your God is real then and mine is false. Please.
 
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laconicstudent

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Hmm, interesting...

(My sky buddy is bigger than YOUR sky buddy?)

Yes.

It's interesting because it is ONLY through personal experience, as I said before, that I do, in fact, KNOW that God is real. Now, you're trying to argue with me and tell me my experience is wrong? lol Good luck with that.

Makes sense too, for christians to defend the idea of the angry, vengeful, bloodthirsty image over a true, living God. Oh wait... no it doesn't. I guess I should discard my personal experience and be an atheist then instead, huh? Yeah.

Prove your God is real then and mine is false. Please.

Certainly.

Early Church Fathers | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages.
 
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lone soldier

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God is love, so anything that contradicts this must be rejected. The Bible is not infallible and certain portions must be rejected outright.

I... agree? lol

High five! :)

Maybe not rejected outright, but rather, "reintrepretted?" Jesus often reinterpretted the old testament. So did the pharisees. Heck, so did the new testament writers (like Paul!) He was notorious for that.
 
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