"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them"

lone soldier

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"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."
- Jeremiah 13:14

That seems pretty harsh, doesn't it?

And no, I'm not an atheist. Not at all. Just someone who wonders how on earth any christian can try to say the bible is a book of God's love for anyone. Doesn't make much sense to me. God seems pretty ticked off at humanity, so it makes me wonder why christians ever try to say that God is good, loving and kind? Where does that nonsense come from?
 

laconicstudent

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"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."
- Jeremiah 13:14

That seems pretty harsh, doesn't it?

And no, I'm not an atheist. Not at all. Just someone who wonders how on earth any christian can try to say the bible is a book of God's love for anyone. Doesn't make much sense to me. God seems pretty ticked off at humanity, so it makes me wonder why christians ever try to say that God is good, loving and kind? Where does that nonsense come from?


1 John 4:8

qui non diligit non novit Deum quoniam Deus caritas est
 
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Stryder06

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"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."
- Jeremiah 13:14

That seems pretty harsh, doesn't it?

And no, I'm not an atheist. Not at all. Just someone who wonders how on earth any christian can try to say the bible is a book of God's love for anyone. Doesn't make much sense to me. God seems pretty ticked off at humanity, so it makes me wonder why christians ever try to say that God is good, loving and kind? Where does that nonsense come from?

1) Perhaps you should stop thinking that God's "love" is all candy and clouds and marshmallows.

2) No one has to be loved. God died for all of humanity. That there is the greatest expression of love, one that we will never comprehend.
 
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lone soldier

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1) Perhaps you should stop thinking that God's "love" is all candy and clouds and marshmallows.

2) No one has to be loved. God died for all of humanity. That there is the greatest expression of love, one that we will never comprehend.

No, I equate love with "love." You know, the human emotion that we all (presumably - I hope anyway!) all have. I would not say to my beloved wife, "Honey, I love you. But if you disobey me, I will rip your hair out, stab you in the neck and beat you over the head with a lead pipe." That's not love. Maybe to you it is (abusive husbands everywhere think that is love), but I don't think it is.

I guess "love" means different things to different people.

Yes, Jesus died for humanity. I don't doubt that. However, God created humans he knew would sin, correct? Yes.

He then decided upon a completely arbitrary penalty for sin - the shedding of blood. He is God - he could have easily changed the penalty to something much easier or more pleasant, if he is loving. It could have been "Pet a cat every time you sin" or "Go eat an orange for your sins." But instead, he chose a bloody, gory atonement instead. Fair enough.

Then he comes and dies for us. Great. But you have to bear in mind, he knew you would sin and you never asked to be born. That was your crime - being born. Rather than making the atonement for such sins easy, he makes it a gruesome, violent thing (not unlike pagan religions) and dies for us. But he could have easily made the penalty anything else... so was this whole thing just a very elaborate ruse or tactic to show us "his love?" Couldn't he have done it another way?

Or is he bound by his own created laws? If so, how is that belief compatible with the Almighty God of the bible??? It doesn't make any sense.
 
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hedrick

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Jeremiah was speaking of God's punishment of Israel. Nations conquered each other then. Still do, for that matter. The prophets said God was using that to judge Israel. If you don't accept that, you lose a pretty big chunk of the Old Testament.

Even Jesus seems to have forseen the fall of Jerusalem, as the consequences of the current behavior of Israel.

Maybe God has specifically summoned armies to destroy people. Maybe that's the stage of moral development, and God was explaining the natural consequences of Israel's acts. But one way or the other, if God is anything like in control, as the Bible assumes, he has set up a system where people really suffer.

The only way I know to avoid this is some version of theology that says God is working within a context he isn't entirely responsible for setting up. In such a theology you can say that the Prophets and Jesus were warning people of consequences of their actions, and that statements such as those you quote were due to prophets not quite understanding the situation.
 
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laconicstudent

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No, I equate love with "love." You know, the human emotion that we all (presumably - I hope anyway!) all have. I would not say to my beloved wife, "Honey, I love you. But if you disobey me, I will rip your hair out, stab you in the neck and beat you over the head with a lead pipe." That's not love. Maybe to you it is (abusive husbands everywhere think that is love), but I don't think it is.

Most husbands also aren't the presiding judge at their wife's trial. If they were, they might do so.

I guess "love" means different things to different people.

Yes, Jesus died for humanity. I don't doubt that. However, God created humans he knew would sin, correct? Yes.

He then decided upon a completely arbitrary penalty for sin - the shedding of blood. He is God - he could have easily changed the penalty to something much easier or more pleasant, if he is loving. It could have been "Pet a cat every time you sin" or "Go eat an orange for your sins." But instead, he chose a bloody, gory atonement instead. Fair enough.

Then he comes and dies for us. Great. But you have to bear in mind, he knew you would sin and you never asked to be born. That was your crime - being born. Rather than making the atonement for such sins easy, he makes it a gruesome, violent thing (not unlike pagan religions) and dies for us. But he could have easily made the penalty anything else... so was this whole thing just a very elaborate ruse or tactic to show us "his love?" Couldn't he have done it another way?

Or is he bound by his own created laws? If so, how is that belief compatible with the Almighty God of the bible??? It doesn't make any sense.

I fail to see how holding someone to a low standard, or weakening your own, is by definition loving.
 
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lone soldier

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Jeremiah was speaking of God's punishment of Israel. Nations conquered each other then. Still do, for that matter. The prophets said God was using that to judge Israel. If you don't accept that, you lose a pretty big chunk of the Old Testament.

Even Jesus seems to have forseen the fall of Jerusalem, as the consequences of the current behavior of Israel.

Maybe God has specifically summoned armies to destroy people. Maybe that's the stage of moral development, and God was explaining the natural consequences of Israel's acts. But one way or the other, if God is anything like in control, as the Bible assumes, he has set up a system where people really suffer.

The only way I know to avoid this is some version of theology that says God is working within a context he isn't entirely responsible for setting up. In such a theology you can say that the Prophets and Jesus were warning people of consequences of their actions, and that statements such as those you quote were due to prophets not quite understanding the situation.

It's true.

If you take the bible seriously, you have a pretty nasty view of God.

But the thing is, MY view of God, through personal experience and whatnot is not the same as the bible's.

I see God as all-good, loving, kind, merciful, compassionate, generous and gentle. This is NOT compatible with christianity's view of God.

I am finding the more I truly investigate into this, the more I am walking away from the idea of a harsh, angry, judgmental, punitive, vengeful man in the sky. It just doesn't work for me, personally.

I've experienced too much to the exact contrary to believe in such a being.
 
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Stryder06

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No, I equate love with "love." You know, the human emotion that we all (presumably - I hope anyway!) all have. I would not say to my beloved wife, "Honey, I love you. But if you disobey me, I will rip your hair out, stab you in the neck and beat you over the head with a lead pipe." That's not love. Maybe to you it is (abusive husbands everywhere think that is love), but I don't think it is.

I guess "love" means different things to different people.
No God is love. The very essence of what love is comes from God. And no, not every human has love. And what you're describing is sadistic...oh wait you're probably gonna say "And what God is going to do to the sinner isn't sadistic?!"

Yes, Jesus died for humanity. I don't doubt that. However, God created humans he knew would sin, correct? Yes.

He then decided upon a completely arbitrary penalty for sin - the shedding of blood. He is God - he could have easily changed the penalty to something much easier or more pleasant, if he is loving. It could have been "Pet a cat every time you sin" or "Go eat an orange for your sins." But instead, he chose a bloody, gory atonement instead. Fair enough.

Then he comes and dies for us. Great. But you have to bear in mind, he knew you would sin and you never asked to be born. That was your crime - being born. Rather than making the atonement for such sins easy, he makes it a gruesome, violent thing (not unlike pagan religions) and dies for us. But he could have easily made the penalty anything else... so was this whole thing just a very elaborate ruse or tactic to show us "his love?" Couldn't he have done it another way?

Or is he bound by his own created laws? If so, how is that belief compatible with the Almighty God of the bible??? It doesn't make any sense.

Man I feel for you brother. I don't think you understand the complete gravity of the penalty of sin. Yes Christ knew that He would have to die for us, and in that all questions should stop. Tell me, would you willingly create something if you knew that the only way you could keep that particular thing was if you died the most heinous death to keep it? Mind you, you can create a host of other things you won't have to die for, but only that one.

That's what Christ did for us. And the penalty wasn't arbitrary. It was black and white. Break the law and you die, now bear in mind, no one had to break the law for one, and for two, the guilty doesn't get the opprotunity to determine the penalty they should pay. If you steal someones car and run a police man over while trying to escape, you don't get to tell the judge "I think I should just have to pet a cat and eat an orange and say I'm sorry one hundred times". It doesn't work that way.

And yes, God is bound by His own law. If He wasn't what kind of God would He be? Think about it like this, God didn't have to create us, He could have moved on and created something else, or just stopped creation altogether, but He didn't. It may be cause for confusion, but on the grander scale of things, God had more of a reason to question creating us then we do. The Almighty Creator, Soverign of the universe, decided He'd rather die for us then live without us. That should be enough to drive everyone to their knees crying out Holy!
 
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lone soldier

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Most husbands also aren't the presiding judge at their wife's trial. If they were, they might do so.



I fail to see how holding someone to a low standard, or weakening your own, is by definition loving.

I see God as love, goodness and as that like a Father. Not a judge.

Our views of God are simply incompatible.

And wow, I feel sorry for your wife if you really believe that. Let's put it this way, your wife screws up and says or does something nasty to hurt you. It's all her fault. Do you forgive her and reconcile with her, or do you plot revenge and kill her?

This is what we read God did in the quotes I posted. I believe in love and forgiveness. You believe in harsh penalties, judgment and retribution. If that works for you, great.

But it doesn't work for me.
 
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Stryder06

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I see God as love, goodness and as that like a Father. Not a judge.

Our views of God are simply incompatible.

And wow, I feel sorry for your wife if you really believe that. Let's put it this way, your wife screws up and says or does something nasty to hurt you. It's all her fault. Do you forgive her and reconcile with her, or do you plot revenge and kill her?

This is what we read God did in the quotes I posted. I believe in love and forgiveness. You believe in harsh penalties, judgment and retribution. If that works for you, great.

But it doesn't work for me.

Why do you see it like that? Do you believe that God isn't willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance?

It isn't about bringing harsh penalties and judgments and retribution. God is working fervishly to redeem mankind, while the Devil is working hard to bring about their downfall. If man walks away from God and decides to live in sin, who's fault is that? It shouldn't matter what the punishment is beucase no one has to be subject to it. The only ones who were supposed to be put out of existence were the fallen angels. The bible says the fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels.
 
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lone soldier

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No God is love. The very essence of what love is comes from God. And no, not every human has love. And what you're describing is sadistic...oh wait you're probably gonna say "And what God is going to do to the sinner isn't sadistic?!"

Every human being (aside from psychopaths, perhaps) have love.

Well, if you want to say God is doing these things we read about, then that is pretty cruel and harsh.

Man I feel for you brother. I don't think you understand the complete gravity of the penalty of sin. Yes Christ knew that He would have to die for us, and in that all questions should stop. Tell me, would you willingly create something if you knew that the only way you could keep that particular thing was if you died the most heinous death to keep it?

Is God bound by his own (created) laws? Yes or no?

If no, then the point is moot. If yes, then how is he the Almighty God? I'm honestly asking.

I would die for my wife. Not everyone else. I am not as saintly as I could be. I'm not perfect in and of myself, nor did I claim to be.

Mind you, you can create a host of other things you won't have to die for, but only that one.

Ok.

That's what Christ did for us. And the penalty wasn't arbitrary. It was black and white. Break the law and you die, now bear in mind, no one had to break the law for one, and for two, the guilty doesn't get the opprotunity to determine the penalty they should pay.

Correct. But God made the rules and the penalties. He could have chosen something else, but didn't.

If you steal someones car and run a police man over while trying to escape, you don't get to tell the judge "I think I should just have to pet a cat and eat an orange and say I'm sorry one hundred times". It doesn't work that way.

Man's laws are not God's laws. In fact, the law you advocate is lawlessness, in one sense. Hear me out...

You do that, then go before the judge. He says, "You must be put to death for killing the officer." Uh-oh, you think! But then, another completely innocent man walks in and says, "I'll go in his place." The judge looks at him funny and says, "You can't. That is unjust. We cannot put an innocent man to death for the crime of the guilty."

I am a christian, but I ask you this: How is THAT in any way just? It's not.

And yes, God is bound by His own law. If He wasn't what kind of God would He be?

Wow. A LOT of christians here would disagree with you. I'm not saying *I* do, but wow... you have just alienated the vast majority of christians who say God can do whatever he wants. Man would say this is HERESY.

Think about it like this, God didn't have to create us, He could have moved on and created something else, or just stopped creation altogether, but He didn't. It may be cause for confusion, but on the grander scale of things, God had more of a reason to question creating us then we do.

I agree. Nevertheless, did you ask to be born? I know I didn't. When you bring something into this world, you have a RESPONSIBLITY to care for that thing and look after it. Even human parents know this. Should the PERFECT God be held to a lesser standard???

The Almighty Creator, Soverign of the universe, decided He'd rather die for us then live without us. That should be enough to drive everyone to their knees crying out Holy!

No, it would drive me to say "Loving". Holy to me, only tipifies the divine judgment, punishment and wrath aspects that christians so love.
 
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laconicstudent

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I see God as love, goodness and as that like a Father. Not a judge.

Then I have no idea where you got this idea, since Scripture makes it pretty plain that God is the perfect judge.

Our views of God are simply incompatible.

And wow, I feel sorry for your wife if you really believe that.

I'm not even married.

Let's put it this way, your wife screws up and says or does something nasty to hurt you. It's all her fault. Do you forgive her and reconcile with her, or do you plot revenge and kill her?

I forgive her and reconcile. This is the point where God is with humanity now. Forgive and reconcile.

This is what we read God did in the quotes I posted. I believe in love and forgiveness. You believe in harsh penalties, judgment and retribution. If that works for you, great.

But it doesn't work for me.

Yes, well, God isn't forcing forgiveness and reconciliation on anyone.
 
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lone soldier

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Why do you see it like that? Do you believe that God isn't willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance?

It isn't about bringing harsh penalties and judgments and retribution. God is working fervishly to redeem mankind, while the Devil is working hard to bring about their downfall. If man walks away from God and decides to live in sin, who's fault is that? It shouldn't matter what the punishment is beucase no one has to be subject to it. The only ones who were supposed to be put out of existence were the fallen angels. The bible says the fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Yes, I am not a calvinist.

God and the devil, in the bible, often seem like they are working toward the same end. Jews know this, which is why they do not believe satan is in rebellion to God, but an instrument of his wrath. However, I do not believe that.

The bible says man is in bondage to sin and MUST sin, says romans. So, in the old testament, man COULD not keep the law, yet God decided to be cruel and harsh with them anyway. The people had no choice!
 
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laconicstudent

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The bible says man is in bondage to sin and MUST sin, says romans. So, in the old testament, man COULD not keep the law, yet God decided to be cruel and harsh with them anyway. The people had no choice!

Man could not keep the law in the OT, as a result of man's own voluntary actions. If I develop a heroin addiction, should the law suddenly not prosecute me for possession? After all, I CAN'T not have heroin at that point, withdrawal could kill me.
 
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lone soldier

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Then I have no idea where you got this idea, since Scripture makes it pretty plain that God is the perfect judge.

I believe God is good and a loving Father. You're right, it isn't a biblical view. It came through personal experience and revelation. Yes, I'm quite the heretic.

I'm not even married.

I'd practice being more loving, if you ever want to be.

I forgive her and reconcile. This is the point where God is with humanity now. Forgive and reconcile.

Right, so he changed, even though Malachi says the Lord does not change.

Yes, well, God isn't forcing forgiveness and reconciliation on anyone.

I never said he was.
 
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