"I save dead people" -- God

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drstevej

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WarriorAngel said:


Without free will we are just sock puppets....and without merit.

Do you have free will in heaven?

Now, if you say YES, then that means any or all of the Saints confirmed to be there might choose to sin and get tossed out.

If you say NO, then Saints are now sock puppets.

As for me I say those in heaven are free only to obey God, and are not free to sin or choose evil. None can sing, "Baloney, Baloney, Baloney... All sing Holy, Holy, Holy!"
 
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UMP

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WarriorAngel said:
A tad bit askew, and a tad bit going all over the place.

You first say that the Lord picks and chooses whom He wants to save...which is predestination.
AND therefore much of life is just useless material that He threw in to make it look like He loves everyone??

Basically I disagree with how you disagree with yourself.

By quoting AW Pink, you must see the contradictions.

Pink says that the Father sent Him to 'draw' them. SO IE, to DRAW means to bring into...which is the person's choice to be drawn into...isnt it?

I see no where in the entire Bible that says man does not choose to follow his free will.
WE can fall away from the Lord.
There are plenty of scriptures that show that.

OSAS is unbiblical.

Furthermore, man was given free will from the start or we wouldnt be here sitting in clothes and unable to see the face of God.

FREE WILL is part of salvation, just as much as grace is.
WE use our God given gift of Grace to determine how our Free Will be judged.

Otherwise, explain why we would ALL be facing judgement if God already choose to pick and choose whom He wanted?

God's children are indeed willing. The question is, "who" makes us willing?
God does.

Psalms 110:
[3] Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,...

Phil 2:
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Please understand, I'm not here to fight with anyone, I'm simply trying to help anyone who will listen in the way "more perfectly."
The point we are trying to make is that the only reason ANYONE loves God is because GOD loved that person first.
God does NOT love everyone with an everlasting love.
Our will in nature is enslaved to sin, it is DEAD in trespasses and in sin. Dead men can't do much of anything, must less choose life.
 
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WarriorAngel

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drstevej said:
Do you have free will in heaven?

Now, if you say YES, then that means any or all of the Saints confirmed to be there might choose to sin and get tossed out.

If you say NO, then Saints are now sock puppets.

As for me I say those in heaven are free only to obey God, and are not free to sin or choose evil. None can sing, "Baloney, Baloney, Baloney... All sing Holy, Holy, Holy!"

Is Lucifer still in Heaven?:scratch:
 
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Lynn73

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All this "no free will" stuff leads to something I don't like. A cruel God who arbitrarily decides for you where you will spend eternity without giving you any choice in the matter. As babies are being born, He goes eeny meeny miney mo, you go to hell you go to heaven you go to hell you go to heaven. That is NOT the God I know.
 
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holeinone

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PearlOfGreatPrice said:
No free will? mmm...

Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden, surrounded by beauty and walking with God. The slippery servant slips up to them and offers them the forbidden fruit - but o' course, Adam and Eve have no free and tell that ol' serpent 'NO'... so there was no fall of man, and we're all happily tripping through the Garden of Eden, blissfully unaware of sin...

oh, wait a minute. Adam and Eve chose to partake of the forbidden fruit...

Blessings,

Adam and Eve were innocent, they had the ability to choose between good and evil, but when they fell all men fell too, men's free will became bound in sin and can no longer choose to do what God would call good.

All the children of Eve are born spiritually dead in their trespasses and sin .

That is why they need to be born again of the Spirit for to them the things of the spirit are foolishness to them. Without Gods grace they can not desire God .


The people described in this passage did not believe because they could not. Scripture clearly teaches that there are some things a lost person cannot do:

Men can not see - until he first be born again. (John 3:3)
Cannot understand - until he first be given a new nature. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
Cannot come - until he first be effectually called by the Father. (John 6:44-45)

Jesus said in John 6:44-45, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/total_depravity.html
 
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WarriorAngel

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UMP said:
God's children are indeed willing. The question is, "who" makes us willing?
God does.

Psalms 110:
[3] Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,...

Phil 2:
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Please understand, I'm not here to fight with anyone, I'm simply trying to help anyone who will listen in the way "more perfectly."
The point we are trying to make is that the only reason ANYONE loves God is because GOD loved that person first.
God does NOT love everyone with an everlasting love.
Our will in nature is enslaved to sin, it is DEAD in trespasses and in sin. Dead men can't do much of anything, must less choose life.

Then it would mean God does not love all...and then Christ did not die for all, even though scripture tells us He did.

Let me outline something;

God grieved mankind from the start when He saw what their free will did.
BUT He was compassionate and loving.
YET He still chastised them. Hence the Flood, and other punishments in ancient times {And still today}
He prophecied from the start His Son.
Christ came and died, He suffered much.

Yet in His passion, He did not remove free will.
Not all will 'choose' the narrow path.

God gives Grace to those who seek Him.
I know this because it was in my seeking that I found God, Who blessed me abundantly with grace. For which I know I cannot brag.
BUT...I have been allowed to be tempted.... and every day we face endless temptations to walk away from the Lord.

If I didnt live life on this pain filled and fearful earth removed from the face of my Lord, I would not believe in free will.

BUT because I have the grace to HELP me make wise decisions, He helps me stay the narrow path...and it because I also want to stay in Grace.

It is a co-operation on my part.
Because the Bible tells us that when we walk away, knowing grace, we cannot be forgiven.

Romans 6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer.

Hebrews 6
1 Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect, not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works, and of faith towards God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. 7 For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. 8 But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt. 9 But, my dearly beloved, we trust better things of you, and nearer to salvation; though we speak thus. 10 For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shewn in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints. 11 And we desire that every one of you shew forth the same carefulness to the accomplishing of hope unto the end: 12 That you become not slothful, but followers of them, who through faith and patience shall inherit the promises.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Lynn73 said:
All this "no free will" stuff leads to something I don't like. A cruel God who arbitrarily decides for you where you will spend eternity without giving you any choice in the matter. As babies are being born, He goes eeny meeny miney mo, you go to hell you go to heaven you go to hell you go to heaven. That is NOT the God I know.

Hey we agree on something. :clap:
 
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holeinone

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holdon said:
Dunno.Well, you seem to doubt that the Word of God is life? And where did you get that? Sure, it is! No, not at all.

Now as to the dead in Ephesians:

"Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee."
(Eph 5:14)

So, the dead are not so dead that they can't hear.....


Is the person waking up himself or is someone waking him?


So you are not saved by grace?( Gods unmerited favor)

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Your faith is a work of God not of you at least that is what Paul believed.


Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:


Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Does God have a completely free will? Does he have the free will that men claim for themselves?
 
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holeinone

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WarriorAngel said:
JUST as God removed us from Paradise, He could easily have reopened the doors and gave back immortality because of Christ.
He could have made us perfect again.

Without free will we are just sock puppets....and without merit.

This is not what the Lord gave us free will for.
He gave it so we could PROOVE our love in return.

For without which, sinners could sin without guilt and still be saved without repentence. There would be no need for warnings of chasetisements.

I am not a formless lump of clay.....I know thru Romans that if I commit adultery, fornications, murder and what not and do not seek forgiveness...I have used my own choices to be disobedient, and therefore in the day of judgement and righteousness I am going to pay for how I used my free will.


Was Noah a puppet of God? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? Moses? The Pharaoh? Joshua? David.? Solomon ? Or were they a part of Gods foreordained plan of Salvation?

Was John the Baptist a puppet? Mary? the apostles? Judas ? Jesus?

Gods sovereignty over people, nations and events is found throughout the Bible . (Pro 21:1** The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. )
He raised up Nations and He tore them down. He set up leaders and caused wars. Prophecy come true because God has ordained the events prophesied. Rom 13:1 — Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. .

The term KING of Kings is not subject to human permission . Is Christ the King of all Kings and the Lord of ALL lords or is that only for those that let him be?

We need to understand how the will of man works.
A man will always will to chose what he prefers.If you hate spinach you will never order it.
Our preferences are placed in us by the creator. He know exactly how we will act in any given circumstance. We do as we will, we make free choices guided by the preferences that we are created with.
Every man chooses exactly what He chooses to do . Every man is fully responsible for those choices.But not one of our choices are a surprise to God..He does not consider the works of men a mystery novel . He wrote it and know how it ends..not by dumb luck ..but by his direct interventions in the affairs of men .

Romans 11:1 "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew....
What then? Israel did not obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? ?
3'Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.'
4 'I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.'
5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel did not obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written: 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, down to this very day
8 as it is written: 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, down to this very day.'

Gods sovereignty in the affair of nations and people..

The creation of God are not "puppets

A. Humans are self-aware, puppets are not.
B. Humans make choices, puppets do not.
C. Humans use logic, puppets do not.
D. Humans have emotions, puppets do not.
E. Humans have preferences, puppets do not.
F. Humans act in accordance with their preferences, puppets do not.
G. Humans consciously do what is determined for them, puppets unconsciously do what is determined for them.
H. Humans understand why they are doing what they are--they act for a reason; puppets do not.
I. Puppets are determined by physical necessity, humans by moral necessity.

Since the fall men have sought the same thin Eve did .."ye shall be gods" . Men do choose , and men are fully responsible for the choices..and yet every choice is within the will and plan of God and will be used to accomplish His purposes.

Let me ask you something. Is there something the matter with the creator having sovereignty over His creation? Can you grant God the same free will you want for yourself?

Can God choose a man? Or is man sovereign over God?

The problem is that men think God owes them a shot at salvation..when in reality what God owes each of us is hell. He owes us nothing. The only one concerned with "fairness" is Satan . Mercy is not getting what you deserve. If you do anything to earn it it is no longer Mercy

* Rom 9:19** Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? **

* Rom 9:20** Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? ** *

Rom 9:21** Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
 
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drstevej

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WarriorAngel said:
Is Lucifer still in Heaven?:scratch:



In Job, Satan has access to God (with His permission) and also roams the earth. However, Lucifer is not a human, therefore this is irrelevant to this discussion.
 
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UMP

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WarriorAngel said:
Then it would mean God does not love all...and then Christ did not die for all, even though scripture tells us He did.

One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicions of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God’s love toward all His creatures is the fundamental and favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Russellites, etc. No matter how a man may live — in open defiance of Heaven, with no concern whatever for his soul’s eternal interests, still less for God’s glory, dying, perhaps with an oath on his lips — notwithstanding, God loves him, we are told. So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting is it to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of their error. That God loves everybody, is, we may say, quite a modern belief. The writings of the church fathers, the Reformers or the Puritans will (we believe) be searched in vain for any such concept. Perhaps the late D. L. Moody — Captivated by Drummond’s “The Greatest Thing in the World” — did more than anyone else in the last century to popularize this concept.
It has been customary to say God loves the sinner though He hates his sin. But that is a meaningless distinction. What is there in a sinner by sin? Is it not true that his “whole head is sick” and his “whole hart faint,” and that “from the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness” in him? (Isa. 1:5,6) Is it true that God loves the one who is despising and rejecting His blessed Son? God is Light as well as Love, and therefore His love must be a holy love. To tell the Christ-rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus, the perfect Teacher, telling sinners that God loves them! In the book of Acts, which records the evangelistic labors and messages of the apostles, God’s love is never referred to at all! But when we come to the Epistles, which are addressed to the saints, we have a full presentation of this precious truth — God’s love for His own. Let us seek to rightly divide the word of God and then we shall not be found taking truths which are addressed to believers and misapplying them to unbelievers. That which sinners need to have brought before them is the ineffable holiness, the exacting righteousness, the inflexible justice and the terrible wrath of God. Risking the danger of being misunderstood let us say — and we wish we could say it to every evangelist and preacher in the country — there is far too much presenting of Christ to sinners today (by those sound in the faith), and far too little showing sinners their need of Christ, i.e., heir absolutely ruined and lost condition, their imminent and awful danger of suffering the wrath to come, the fearful guilt resting upon them in the sight of God: to present Christ to those who have never been shown their need of Him, seems to us to be guilty of casting pearls before swine.
If it be true that God loves every member of the human family, then why did our Lord tell His disciples “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth hem, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him.” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father”? if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Prov. 8:17: “I love them that love Me.” Again we read, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity” (Psa 5:5)! “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (Psa. 7:11) “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God” — not “shall abide,” but even now — “abideth on him.” (John 3:36) Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again, is it not evident that the words, “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:39) marks a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again, is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13) that god does not love everybody? Again, it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.” (Heb. 12:6) Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Finally, we would ask, Is it conceivable that god will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change — He is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!
Turning now to John 3:16, it should be evident from the passages just quoted that this verse will not bear the construction usually put upon it. “God so loved the world. . .” Many suppose that this means the entire human race. But “the entire human race” includes all mankind from Adam till the close of earth’s history: it reaches backward as well as forward! Consider, then, he history of mankind before Christ was born. Unnumbered millions lived and died before the savior came to the earth, lived here “having no hope and without God in the world,” and therefore passed out into an eternity of woe. If God “loved” them, where is the slightest proof thereof? Scripture declares “Who (God) in times past (from the tower of Babel till after Pentecost) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.” (Acts 14:16) Scripture declares that “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.” (Rom. 1:28). To Israel God said, “You only have I known of all the families of the earth.” (Amos 3:2). In view of these plain passages who will be so foolish as to insist that God in the past loved all mankind! The same applies with equal force to the future. Read through the book of Revelation, noting especially chapters 8 to 19, where we have described he judgments which will be poured out from Heaven on this earth. Read of the fearful woes, the frightful plagues, the vials of God’s wrath, which shall be emptied on the wicked. Finally, read the twentieth chapter of the Revelation, the great white throne judgment, and see if you can discover there the slightest trace of love.
But the objector comes back to John 3:16 and says, “World means world.” True, but we have shown that “the world” does not mean the whole human family. The fact is that “the world” is used in a general way. When the brethren of Christ said “Shew thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “Shew Thyself to all mankind”? When the Pharisees said “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him? When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Rom. 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on earth? When Rev. 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast,” are we to understand that there will be no exceptions/ These, and other passages which might be quoted, show that the term “the world” often has a relative rather than an absolute force.
Now the first thing to note in connection with John 3:16 is that our Lord was there speaking to Nicodemus, a man who believed that God’s mercies were confined to his own nation. Christ there announced that God’s love in giving His Son had a larger object in view, that it flowed beyond the boundary of Palestine, reaching out to “regions beyond.” In other words, this was Christ’s announcement that God had a purpose of grace toward Gentiles as well as Jews. “God so loved the world,” then, signifies God’s love is international in its scope. But does this mean that God loves every individual among he Gentiles? Not necessarily, for as we have seen, the term “world” is general rather than specific, relative rather than absolute. The term “world” in itself is not conclusive. To ascertain who are the objects of God’s love, other passages where His love is mentioned must be consulted.
In 2 Peter 2:5 we read of “the world of the ungodly.” If then, there is a world of the ungodly, there must also be a world of the godly. It is the latter who are in view in the passages we shall now briefly consider. “For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” (John 6:33). Now mark it well, Christ did not say, “offereth life unto the world,” but “giveth.” What is the difference between the two terms? This: a thing which is “offered” may be refused, but a thing “given,” necessarily implies its acceptance. If it is not accepted, it is not “given,” it is simply proffered. Here, then, is a Scripture that positively states Christ giveth life (spiritual, eternal life) “unto the world.” Now He does not give eternal life to the “world of the ungodly” for they will not have it, they do not want it. Hence, we are obliged to understand the reference in John 6:33 as being to “the world of the godly,” i.e., God’s own people.
One more: In 2 Cor. 5:19 we read, “To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” What is meant by this is clearly defined in the worlds immediately following, “not imputing their trespasses unto them.” Here again the “the world” cannot mean “the world of the ungodly,” for their “trespasses” are “imputed” to them, as the judgment of the Great White Throne will yet show. But 2 Cor. 5:19 plainly teaches there is a “world’ which is “reconciled,” reconciled unto God because their trespasses are not reckoned to their account, having been borne by their Substitute. Who then are they? Only one answer is fairly possible — the world of God’s people!
In like manner, he “world’ in John 3:16 must, in the final analysis refer to the world of God’s people. Must, we say, for there is no other alternative solution. It cannot mean the whole human race, for one-half of the race was already in hell when Christ came to earth. It is unfair to insist that it means every human being now living, for every other passage in the New Testament where God’s love is mentioned, limits it to His own people — search and see! The objects of God’s love in John 3:16 are precisely the same as the objects of Christ’s love in John 13:1: “Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His time was come, that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having love His own which were in the world, He love them unto the end.” We may admit that our interpretation of John 3:16 is no novel one invented by us, but one almost uniformly given by the Reformers and Puritans, and many others since then.

A.W. Pink
 
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holdon

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drstevej said:
God gives ears to hear, it is called regeneration.
Really? And you base this on what? Don't all have ears? You don't mean to say all are regenerate, no?
Spend today in a graveyard preaching as passionately as you can. Come back and tell me what the corpses heard.
Well, we have a good example of that:

And it came to pass in Iconium that they entered together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake that a great multitude of both Jews and Greeks believed.
Contrast that with Jesus' "Lazarus, come forth!"
And what does that have to with re-generation?
 
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drstevej said:
In Job, Satan has access to God (with His permission) and also roams the earth. However, Lucifer is not a human, therefore this is irrelevant to this discussion.

SAY what??
You asked if there was FREE WILL in Heaven..........and my answer is just that.......
IS Lucifer in Heaven??

I didnt ask if He could go to the throne of God..but does he reside with God??

If he does, then why is hell reserved for him and the other fallen angels??
Evidently all created beings have free will. Angels included.

IT has everything to do with your question.:p
 
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Lynn73

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Lucifer is relevant to the discussion. He had free will to choose to rebel, which he did. If God created the angels with free will why would he then turn around and created us with no free will? The Scripture is full of verses telling us we must believe to be saved. That implies a choice. To make a choice, one must have free will to do so. In my opinion, it's an absurdity to say we have to free will. We use our free will every day to make wrong or right choices.
 
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drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
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WarriorAngel said:
SAY what??
You asked if there was FREE WILL in Heaven..........and my answer is just that.......
IS Lucifer in Heaven??



I didnt ask if He could go to the throne of God..but does he reside with God??

If he does, then why is hell reserved for him and the other fallen angels??
Evidently all created beings have free will. Angels included.

IT has everything to do with your question.:p

We are talking about free will in humans, not angels. Why must all beings be identical? Prove this assumption and then you point becomes relevant.

Until you prove the assumption that God has created all beings identical your mention of Lucifer is a red herring.

The topic is anthropology not angelology.

Is there HUMAN free will in heaven.... sheesh. :doh:
 
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UMP

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Lynn73 said:
The Scripture is full of verses telling us we must believe to be saved.

Here is the question.
Who will believe??
Those "ordained" by God will believe.
How many will believe ??
"As many as God ordained to eternal life"

Acts 13:
[48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 
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holdon

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UMP said:
One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicions of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God’s love toward all His creatures is the fundamental and favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Russellites, etc. No matter how a man may live — in open defiance of Heaven, with no concern whatever for his soul’s eternal interests, still less for God’s glory, dying, perhaps with an oath on his lips — notwithstanding, God loves him, we are told. So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting is it to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of their error. That God loves everybody, is, we may say, quite a modern belief. The writings of the church fathers, the Reformers or the Puritans will (we believe) be searched in vain for any such concept. Perhaps the late D. L. Moody — Captivated by Drummond’s “The Greatest Thing in the World” — did more than anyone else in the last century to popularize this concept.
It has been customary to say God loves the sinner though He hates his sin. But that is a meaningless distinction. What is there in a sinner by sin? Is it not true that his “whole head is sick” and his “whole hart faint,” and that “from the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness” in him? (Isa. 1:5,6) Is it true that God loves the one who is despising and rejecting His blessed Son? God is Light as well as Love, and therefore His love must be a holy love. To tell the Christ-rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus, the perfect Teacher, telling sinners that God loves them! In the book of Acts, which records the evangelistic labors and messages of the apostles, God’s love is never referred to at all! But when we come to the Epistles, which are addressed to the saints, we have a full presentation of this precious truth — God’s love for His own. Let us seek to rightly divide the word of God and then we shall not be found taking truths which are addressed to believers and misapplying them to unbelievers. That which sinners need to have brought before them is the ineffable holiness, the exacting righteousness, the inflexible justice and the terrible wrath of God. Risking the danger of being misunderstood let us say — and we wish we could say it to every evangelist and preacher in the country — there is far too much presenting of Christ to sinners today (by those sound in the faith), and far too little showing sinners their need of Christ, i.e., heir absolutely ruined and lost condition, their imminent and awful danger of suffering the wrath to come, the fearful guilt resting upon them in the sight of God: to present Christ to those who have never been shown their need of Him, seems to us to be guilty of casting pearls before swine.
If it be true that God loves every member of the human family, then why did our Lord tell His disciples “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth hem, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him.” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father”? if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Prov. 8:17: “I love them that love Me.” Again we read, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity” (Psa 5:5)! “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (Psa. 7:11) “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God” — not “shall abide,” but even now — “abideth on him.” (John 3:36) Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again, is it not evident that the words, “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:39) marks a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again, is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13) that god does not love everybody? Again, it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.” (Heb. 12:6) Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Finally, we would ask, Is it conceivable that god will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change — He is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!
Turning now to John 3:16, it should be evident from the passages just quoted that this verse will not bear the construction usually put upon it. “God so loved the world. . .” Many suppose that this means the entire human race. But “the entire human race” includes all mankind from Adam till the close of earth’s history: it reaches backward as well as forward! Consider, then, he history of mankind before Christ was born. Unnumbered millions lived and died before the savior came to the earth, lived here “having no hope and without God in the world,” and therefore passed out into an eternity of woe. If God “loved” them, where is the slightest proof thereof? Scripture declares “Who (God) in times past (from the tower of Babel till after Pentecost) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.” (Acts 14:16) Scripture declares that “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.” (Rom. 1:28). To Israel God said, “You only have I known of all the families of the earth.” (Amos 3:2). In view of these plain passages who will be so foolish as to insist that God in the past loved all mankind! The same applies with equal force to the future. Read through the book of Revelation, noting especially chapters 8 to 19, where we have described he judgments which will be poured out from Heaven on this earth. Read of the fearful woes, the frightful plagues, the vials of God’s wrath, which shall be emptied on the wicked. Finally, read the twentieth chapter of the Revelation, the great white throne judgment, and see if you can discover there the slightest trace of love.
But the objector comes back to John 3:16 and says, “World means world.” True, but we have shown that “the world” does not mean the whole human family. The fact is that “the world” is used in a general way. When the brethren of Christ said “Shew thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “Shew Thyself to all mankind”? When the Pharisees said “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him? When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Rom. 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on earth? When Rev. 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast,” are we to understand that there will be no exceptions/ These, and other passages which might be quoted, show that the term “the world” often has a relative rather than an absolute force.
Now the first thing to note in connection with John 3:16 is that our Lord was there speaking to Nicodemus, a man who believed that God’s mercies were confined to his own nation. Christ there announced that God’s love in giving His Son had a larger object in view, that it flowed beyond the boundary of Palestine, reaching out to “regions beyond.” In other words, this was Christ’s announcement that God had a purpose of grace toward Gentiles as well as Jews. “God so loved the world,” then, signifies God’s love is international in its scope. But does this mean that God loves every individual among he Gentiles? Not necessarily, for as we have seen, the term “world” is general rather than specific, relative rather than absolute. The term “world” in itself is not conclusive. To ascertain who are the objects of God’s love, other passages where His love is mentioned must be consulted.
In 2 Peter 2:5 we read of “the world of the ungodly.” If then, there is a world of the ungodly, there must also be a world of the godly. It is the latter who are in view in the passages we shall now briefly consider. “For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” (John 6:33). Now mark it well, Christ did not say, “offereth life unto the world,” but “giveth.” What is the difference between the two terms? This: a thing which is “offered” may be refused, but a thing “given,” necessarily implies its acceptance. If it is not accepted, it is not “given,” it is simply proffered. Here, then, is a Scripture that positively states Christ giveth life (spiritual, eternal life) “unto the world.” Now He does not give eternal life to the “world of the ungodly” for they will not have it, they do not want it. Hence, we are obliged to understand the reference in John 6:33 as being to “the world of the godly,” i.e., God’s own people.
One more: In 2 Cor. 5:19 we read, “To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” What is meant by this is clearly defined in the worlds immediately following, “not imputing their trespasses unto them.” Here again the “the world” cannot mean “the world of the ungodly,” for their “trespasses” are “imputed” to them, as the judgment of the Great White Throne will yet show. But 2 Cor. 5:19 plainly teaches there is a “world’ which is “reconciled,” reconciled unto God because their trespasses are not reckoned to their account, having been borne by their Substitute. Who then are they? Only one answer is fairly possible — the world of God’s people!
In like manner, he “world’ in John 3:16 must, in the final analysis refer to the world of God’s people. Must, we say, for there is no other alternative solution. It cannot mean the whole human race, for one-half of the race was already in hell when Christ came to earth. It is unfair to insist that it means every human being now living, for every other passage in the New Testament where God’s love is mentioned, limits it to His own people — search and see! The objects of God’s love in John 3:16 are precisely the same as the objects of Christ’s love in John 13:1: “Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His time was come, that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having love His own which were in the world, He love them unto the end.” We may admit that our interpretation of John 3:16 is no novel one invented by us, but one almost uniformly given by the Reformers and Puritans, and many others since then.

A.W. Pink

This whole article is refuted by one verse from Scripture:

Romans 5:8 "but God commends his love to us, in that, we being still sinners, Christ has died for us."

Was God angry with us when we were sinners. Of course.
Did He only love those sinners that would ultimately be saved? That would be respecting persons and unjust.
Christ dying, was proof of God's love. Unlimited love. How?

"For if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of his Son".

"We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God."
 
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