- Jul 30, 2004
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If you did not understand my explanation and that is not good enough then there is nothing more I can say. It looks like you have a lot of time on your hands, I don't, still work and have a family. A short commentary addressing one scripture is all I can do. You seem to want a chapter. Just disregard my post and research a John MacArthur's commentary or some other scholar.so, now you change your claim...cool, I can work with that...you claim that HEb. 6 is referring to the Jews who rejected Christ...(past tense of course) what does that make them? Wouldn't that make them unbelieving Jews? You know, like I previously claimed you said they were? Anyone who rejects Christ is an unbeliever, right? Can we at least agree on that? If not, what are they?
Okay, next point...We already know that you do not think this is referring to believers, not sure why you tried to make it sound like that wasn't understood, but no matter, you then say, "the particular verse was a warning...." Before we can get into what the intent of the passage is, we have to deal with the context of who is being talked about here. Obviously you believe that it is the ones who rejected Christ, that is past tense...which I have not only accepted as your claim but asked you to evidence in context and/or the totality of scripture. But, you refuse.
So here it is again, once you explain this in a logical manner we can more on to the intent of the passage because as long as our premise is different, we cannot even come to an agreement of what the passage is telling us. Being that there is only 1 HS and He is the interpreter of the word, there can only be one right answer here as well. Thus, you have to evidence your claim through scripture. If you notice, none of these contradictions apply to my interpretation of the text, only to yours, so you have the hard job, I just have to keep asking the same questions over and over till you either answer, or flame enough to close the thread.
If this passage is talking about those who rejected Christ in the past, as per your claim, we have several problems with context. 1. according to the context, we are talking about those that are living by faith not by law, which is only believers. Thus, if you want to claim that these are those who in the past rejected Christ to remain in the Jewish traditions of sacrifices etc., you need to show scripture that tells us that the OT Jews were living by faith not by the law...since I know that isn't what it says, I'll stick with what the text says, but maybe i missed something so feel free to show me the passages I have missed that show those living by the law actually not living by the law but by faith.
2. you still refuse to reconcile the problem with partaking in the HS. According to the text, these people that you say rejected Christ in the past, are also partaking of the HS and the sharing in the ministry of the HS to share the gospel of Christ with the world. Now, if they have rejected Christ, how is it that they are sharing in the ministry of sharing Christ with the world through the HS? See, that is a contradiction right there between what the text says and what you claim it means.
3. Now we come to another glaring problem with your claim. According to you these are those that rejected Christ in the past...yet the text says, that they cannot return to the saving knowledge of Christ. If they never believed, if they rejected in the past, what are they returning to that never happened in the first place? you said that this passage was talking about Jews who rejected Christ. The context of the passage says that they were partaking of the HS....thus, if your theory holds true, that this is talking about those who reject Christ, aka unbelieving Jews, then you must show where God used the HS to work through unbelievers to spread the gospel of the Christ they didn't believe in, as per what the text tells us about the people in question. Doesn't matter if you directly said it or not, it is the consequence of the interpretation you present and thus is yours to address. Now, why would you apologize for flaming me then turn around and flame me again? What do you think that gains you? As I have repeatedly told you, both myself and the non OSAS doctrine hold very tightly to the security of our salvation. So to try to twist what I am showing you in Heb. 6 into a false claim against my beliefs and the NON OSAS teaching is just more attempts to flame, presumably to shut down the thread because you can't answer the questions asked of your belief. You see, every true teacher, must first learn to be a student, something you seem unwilling to do. 1. why would you remove our look at what scripture teaches in order to go down a rabbit hole that does not exist? As I have said and shown, both myself and non OSAS teaching believes and holds very dearly the truth that we are secure in Christ. In fact, when our son died, one of the verses we used at the funeral was Romans 8:38-39...but that isn't what we are talking about, so doesn't apply to our discussion. You see, we are absolutely sealed, secure, etc. in our salvation and we have the HS to testify to that truth, you know a guarantee. But notice in context of Heb. 6 what it says of the people in question...they were partaking of the HS that is our guarantee of salvation. Thus the question how can someone who is partaking of the guarantee of our salvation not be saved? But you refuse to answer this question because you would rather reinvent NON OSAS teaching into something it doesn't say so that your arguments sound wise in your own eyes. Nothing can remove us from God's hand...but we can reject Him just like Heb. 6, Matt 13, and Phil. 2 all three tell us we can do. That does nothing to our understanding of security in Christ, in fact, it enhances it, making our security in Christ even greater than it is in OSAS teaching because it allows God to maintain His nature while testifying to the truth of our salvation and trust in Him, not in ourselves. really, and you don't think this is just more flamingsince I have loudly and clearly been proclaiming this from the moment I began talking about salvation, I don't know why you keep bringing it up as if it was not said or believed.
Let me tell you a story, it might scare someone like you off, but bear with me none the less. I first came to Christ at the age of 6. My coming to Christ, broke a stronghold in my family that Satan held for years and years and years. The result is that Satan tried to attack me and get me to turn away from, you know reject Christ. I refused, but the point of the story is in how Satan tried to turn me away. You see, every night, I would have demonic visitations. At 6 years old, I had no idea what was going on, but God, in His faithfulness, showed me that as long as I was secure in Christ, that is seeking Him, nothing could hurt me. Not demons, not my family, not the world, nothing at all could harm me as long as I belonged to Christ. And so, I stayed faithful to Him for nigh on 49 years now. Passionately and faithfully in Love with God.
But the key to the whole thing is that I must belong to Him. If I reject Him, if I turn from Him, if I walk away, He can't protect me, because I no longer belong to Him. But, that is the real heart of the issue isn't it? You can't defeat NON OSAS teaching unless you first reinvent the teaching to suit your arguments? Which is dishonest and sinful but you have to know that by now, being such a wise teacher and all.
Now, I am sure you will come back and say that I misrepresented you, but let me quote what you said, just so we are clear..."Some just don't have their roots firmly planted and their seed never nourished properly. If God seals you, your seed will grow." IOW"s you are saying that God doesn't seal those whose roots aren't deep enough yet to be nourished properly...that means that when we first come to Christ, before the roots have time to develop and take hold, we are not really believers unto salvation. Oh, man is that scary teaching....when then are we mature enough to be secure in God's hands?
I even asked my husband to tell me what your words said, not some hidden meaning you want me to draw from them, and he said the same thing. BY what you say here, your theology says that the new believer is not secure in Christ. That is scary stuff right there. well, first, those scriptures aren't even on the table at this point and second, I have no doubts about my salvation, so instead of talking to your imaginary friends, how about talking to me since I am here. again, you refuse to answer the question of your beliefs so that you can reinvent what I am saying into something different and thus pretend you don't have to answer the question. I can keep asking the question until you flame me enough to close the thread or you can simply answer it as a righteous person would be willing to do. In HEb. 6, we are told that the JEws you claim rejected Christ in the past, are partaking of the HS through a faith that doesn't exist in the OT rituals...how is it possible for a person who has rejected Christ to partake in the work of the HS through the HS through faith in the Christ they do not believe in? It's really a simple question, not sure why you are being so stubborn...oh, wait, I do know, because you think you can flame me into shutting down the thread and thus reinvent the non OSAS argument in order to spread your "wisdom" that doesn't fit the scriptures in question. See, more of the same flaming...in my understanding of flaming, if you continue to reinvent someone elses argument to suit your whim even after repeatedly being shown that your reinvention is a misrepresentation, it is flaming. Which is exactly what you are doing here. You have been repeatedly told and shown that Non OSAS teaching and my personal beliefs as well, believe and rely on our security in Christ, yet you can't address any issues with your teaching without first reinventing and misrepresenting the teaching into no security which is false witness and sinful techniques.
So, back to the questions you refuse to answer.
1. does God force us to accept for reject Christ?
2. does God force us to remain in Him?
3. what scripture tells us that the people in Heb. 6 that are said to be partaking of the HS and living by faith not law are Jews that reject Christ when that is contrary to what scripture tells us?
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