How (US) nationalistic does the Lutheran Church get?

[FireDragon76]

Should there be a division in the Christian life, one informed by the Church and another not?

To a certain extent, that's the nature of living in the world responsibly and incarnationally. If the Christian life isn't dynamic and faced with these apparent contradictions, then we aren't really loving our neighbor.

Lutherans and Reformed Protestants traditionally have never had an Anabaptist notion that the Christian life is uncomplicated and doesn't involve engaging with the world on its own terms.

 

[JM]

This is where joining a Lutheran church would help on that very much (or a very full reading through the New Testament). We teach from scripture that we are all sinners. So, it's not that some of us are good, and those other people over there are sinners and need our reproach. Instead, when people hear the gospel, some will be convicted of their sin, and turn to Christ in faith, repenting, and be saved. And then God will do the work over time on them they need, so long as they continue to trust in Christ and confess their sins over time as they go through life. This is all just literally bible verses, every bit. Ask if you want to see the passages.

A church is very helpful in that in our churches we demonstrate confession, and faith, and listening to Christ, and keeping our focus on Him, working to follow Him, to do as He taught we are to do.
But it's God who saves us, not ourselves and not our judging, but His work in us.

I'm not quick to join a Lutheran church and find myself, over time, disagreeing with more and more of what I'm learning. Having worked in libraries for over 30 years has allowed me to read deeply, I've taken seminary courses, lead Bible studies, etc. I find my cup is pretty full and my mind has been made up on many of these issues.

I'll continue to attend a LCMS but may return to my Reformed Baptist roots in time, I'm also shocked at the racism displayed on social media by LCMS folks, very sad.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Halbhh]

I'm not quick to join a Lutheran church and find myself, over time, disagreeing with more and more of what I'm learning. Having worked in libraries for over 30 years has allowed me to read deeply, I've taken seminary courses, lead Bible studies, etc. I find my cup is pretty full and my mind has been made up on many of these issues.

I'll continue to attend a LCMS but may return to my Reformed Baptist roots in time, I'm also shocked at the racism displayed on social media by LCMS folks, very sad.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Ok.
Just to know, what I read was that the white supremist individual who joined the LCMS and was able to get an office (presumably by hiding his views) was removed from his office for his views and the report I read said he had been doing a social media campaign trying to get white supremacists to join the LCMS apparently, so I'm unsure if you saw posts which ones would just be from that group that was seeking to take over, and has been rejected by the LCMS leadership. I'm not LCMS myself, and that's all I know, but it seems pretty reliable because of the statement from the LCMS leadership:

President Harrison denounces disturbing ideologies

LCMS leaders and congregations reject racist views and instead stand firm on the biblical belief that God loves every human in Jesus Christ.

reporter.lcms.org

 

[JM]

Ok.
Just to know, what I read was that the white supremist individual who joined the LCMS and was able to get an office (presumably by hiding his views) was removed from his office for his views and the report I read said he had been doing a social media campaign trying to get white supremacists to join the LCMS apparently, so I'm unsure if you saw posts which ones would just be from that group that was seeking to take over, and has been rejected by the LCMS leadership. I'm not LCMS myself, and that's all I know, but it seems pretty reliable because of the statement from the LCMS leadership:

President Harrison denounces disturbing ideologies

LCMS leaders and congregations reject racist views and instead stand firm on the biblical belief that God loves every human in Jesus Christ.

reporter.lcms.org

Twitter is full of them. Look for the Easter Island emoji.

I love Lutheran worship, the emphasis on confession and absolution, but maybe I'm just too old and cranky to change.

 

[FireDragon76]

Lutherans have a problem with lack of racial diversity in their churches, they are some of the least diverse churches in the US, but actual racism is rare among Lutherans, in my experience, and even conservative synods don't tolerate it.

 

[Halbhh]

Lutherans have a problem with lack of racial diversity in their churches, they are some of the least diverse churches in the US, but actual racism is rare among Lutherans, in my experience, and even conservative synods don't tolerate it.

While we are suburban and have had several members that were not caucasian (we lost some during Covid), it's still true that the Lutheran Church arose in Northern Europe and came to the U.S. with Northern Europeans immigrants. So, the fact they were all Northern Europeans wasn't an intentional exclusivity, but more of a ethnic background effect from the past.

This was interesting tho:

Evangelical Lutheran Church In America Number of Employees, Statistics, Diversity, Demographics, and Facts - Zippia

Evangelical Lutheran Church In America have 50 employees. Learn more about the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America's demographics and statistics by exploring diversity metrics and key facts about the company.

www.zippia.com

 

[FireDragon76]

While we are suburban and have had several members that were not caucasian (we lost some during Covid), it's still true that the Lutheran Church arose in Northern Europe and came to the U.S. with Northern Europeans immigrants. So, the fact they were all Northern Europeans wasn't an intentional exclusivity, but more of a ethnic background effect from the past.

This was interesting tho:

Evangelical Lutheran Church In America Number of Employees, Statistics, Diversity, Demographics, and Facts - Zippia

Evangelical Lutheran Church In America have 50 employees. Learn more about the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America's demographics and statistics by exploring diversity metrics and key facts about the company.

www.zippia.com

Yeah, most Americans perceive Lutherans as an ethnic religion assosciated with a particular culture, similar to Eastern Orthodoxy. It doesn't help that for years in the 20th century, mainstream Lutheran institutions did alot to promote that idea themselves.

More recently, there was a hip-hop artist, Flame (Marcus Tyrone Gray) that converted to Lutheranism, so maybe that perception is starting to change.

 

[JM]

Lutherans have a problem with lack of racial diversity in their churches, they are some of the least diverse churches in the US, but actual racism is rare among Lutherans, in my experience, and even conservative synods don't tolerate it.

Good to hear and I'm sure you're correct. My wife is black, my children of mixed race, we have experienced racism in the Dutch Reformed church but not Lutheran.

 

[FireDragon76]

Good to hear and I'm sure you're correct. My wife is black, my children of mixed race, we have experienced racism in the Dutch Reformed church but not Lutheran.

I can see your concerns about Christian nationalism, then. It's not necessarily manifest as overt racism, but it can be unease about violating perceived racial hierarchies or boundaries, and having people that "look like us". So your first duty is to your family and making sure you have a place where they can thrive spiritually.

We had a hard time fitting in, in a run-of-the-mill ELCA church, just because of different cultural backgrounds. Lutherans can have implicit expectations about cultural conformity, and sometimes the people just don't know how to deal with that- Lutheran laypeople are usually considerate enough but they are used to "their own kind". The parish was alot like the old Republican Party at Prayer, frankly, lots of white middle class teachers and cops, which can be a bit unnerving if you don't exactly like that kind of monolithic culture that can produce, of dutiful people that never question authority.

Today, we go to a UCC/Congregationalist church, and I find they don't have that expectation. It's going to vary based on where you live, ultimately, I believe.

 

[JM]

I am a Christian Nationalist in the Doug Wilson, Steve Wolfe sense but it's not linked to race. The stuff I see online are from white only Christian Nationalists. We may very well end up back at a Baptist church enriched from our experiences with the LCMS. It's just difficult to go back to a non liturgical church after experiencing a beautiful liturgy.

 

[Markie Boy]

In Matthew ch. 7 Jesus tells us to judge not lest you be judged. And that we will be judged as we judge others. That passage gets quoted a lot.

But in the next paragraph Jesus tells us to not cast our pearls before the swine. That one doesn't get a lot of usage these days. You have to make a judgement call of who the swine are, or that statement makes no sense.

I think we are not to judge the fate of anyone - that's His job. But we are to make judgement calls. I think abortion supporters fall into the swine category.

 

[FireDragon76]

In Matthew ch. 7 Jesus tells us to judge not lest you be judged. And that we will be judged as we judge others. That passage gets quoted a lot.

But in the next paragraph Jesus tells us to not cast our pearls before the swine. That one doesn't get a lot of usage these days. You have to make a judgement call of who the swine are, or that statement makes no sense.

I think we are not to judge the fate of anyone - that's His job. But we are to make judgement calls. I think abortion supporters fall into the swine category.

Not casting your pearls before swine is not about judging people. It's not about wasting your time or talents on fruitless or vain matters that benefit none.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am a Christian Nationalist in the Doug Wilson, Steve Wolfe sense but it's not linked to race. The stuff I see online are from white only Christian Nationalists. We may very well end up back at a Baptist church enriched from our experiences with the LCMS. It's just difficult to go back to a non liturgical church after experiencing a beautiful liturgy.

Christian Nationalism is a spectrum as an ideology, meaning it isn't a black and white thing. A great many American Christians have some Christian Nationalist senitiments, including many African Americans and even many Mainline Protestants: the only Protestant denomination that scores low in terms of Christian nationalism is the United Church of Christ. Lutherans are somewhere in the middle, similar to Episcopalians.

Without wanting to point fingers at anybody, since we are talking about an ideological spectrum, most of the more extreme forms of Christian Nationalism out there are much more enmeshed within systemic and/or symbolic racism and racial grievance politics, but the more extreme forms of Christian nationalism actually aren't found in churches, but outside of them.

 

[JM]

Well yes, of course...I'm also a theonomist and postmillennial.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well yes, of course...I'm also a theonomist and postmillennial.

That's definitely more Reformed than Lutheran.

Theonomy doesn't really have much of a place in Lutheranism, as its usually seen as confusing Law and Gospel. Lutherans would rather have a functioning, competent government generally, than a "religiously correct" one (if such a thing would even be comprehensible to a Lutheran in the first place). Lutherans historically have been most conducive to an Erastian or Caesaropapist type relationship between Church and State, similar to Anglicanism or Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[JM]

That's definitely more Reformed than Lutheran.

Theonomy doesn't really have much of a place in Lutheranism, as its usually seen as confusing Law and Gospel. Lutherans would rather have a functioning, competent government generally, than a "religiously correct" one (if such a thing would even be comprehensible to a Lutheran in the first place).

I appreciate that reply, thanks. Very helpful. But I'm not sure what you mean by "religiously correct." Do you mean Lutherans would not care if they were governed by Buddhists or Muslims? Or that Lutherans don't care which denomination should govern?

I also believe in double predestination, deny that the Gospel is open to all as in "it is a well meant offer" or that faith is a duty of the reprobate.

I have thousands of posts on CF if you want to look them up. I'm learning that besides worship I may not fit in so to speak.

 

[FireDragon76]

I appreciate that reply, thanks. Very helpful. But I'm not sure what you mean by "religiously correct." Do you mean Lutherans would not care if they were governed by Buddhists or Muslims? Or that Lutherans don't care which denomination should govern?

They might care, but they aren't going to make it a religious duty to change the situation, necessarily. It's going to really matter more whether the ruler is competent or not. Luther famously said he'ld rather be ruled by a competent Turk than an incompetent Christian.

Lutherans, just like Reformed, don't deny a sense of "common grace" to non-Christians, and there is the notion of the Left-Hand Kingdom being something that isn't exclusive to a particular religious ideology (eg, natural law is available to everyone with reason).

 

[Joy]

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