How (US) nationalistic does the Lutheran Church get?

[Angeldove97]

One of my reasons for leaving the Catholic Church (as a long time Catholic) is how my experience in an United States Catholic church can be vastly different than what I would experience in an non-US church. Come very election year, priests stand up every Sunday or even on social media and some tell us you MUST vote for so-and-so or else. I have multiple experiences of being told that if we don't vote for X, I'm literally going to hell. And after the last few elections, I'm honestly over being told that since I don't believe it.

I'm sure it varies from church/parish to church/parish (place of worship?) in the United States. But I see ourselves as THE CHURCH. Our national borders shouldn't matter as we are one Body under and through Christ.

Are there similar experiences happening in the Lutheran Church? I know there are different synods - would I have a different experience based on which one I attended?

And if anyone is worried about voting - each time I'm mindfully discerning how Christ is calling me to vote. I don't take it lightly and I know this is an action of love.

 

[JM]

Well, you should listen to the advice of your Pastors and engage the world by participating in the voting process.

No?

If you're Catholic you should vote according to traditional Catholic belief.

No?

Just for the record conservative, confessional Christians would likely agree with traditional Catholicism unless you're being asked to vote for a pope or something.

I attend a local LCMS and the Pastor is 85! He never mentions politics but does call out sin including transgenderism, drag shows for kids, etc and the congregation which is very grey (and by that I mean old) gives a hardy AMEN before he finishes his sermon.

Biblical preaching is Biblical preaching, doesn't matter where you go.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Angeldove97]

Well, you should listen to the advice of your Pastors and engage the world by participating in the voting process.

No?

If you're Catholic you should vote according to traditional Catholic belief.

No?

Yes, we should vote. Is my pastor that knowledgeable about politics - I'm not 100% sure about that.

My issue lies in the "you're going to hell" part - which I think goes way too far.

I have prayed and discerned about how to vote.

I didn't even bring up the political sides in my post though, so I will continue to leave that part out - as I don't think a person should vote based on a party. I'm also not talking about current new topics, as I really don't care how someone wants to live their life if they're not hurting anybody (that's between them and God).

 

[LizaMarie]

You will find that most confessional Lutheran churches are very Biblically based, which means that they hold to pro-life, traditional marriage(one man-one woman for life) divorce is discouraged, and in my experience, they tend to stay out of partisian politics for the most part. Sermons are meant to be Christ centered and to preach the gospel. This doesn't mean that Christians shouldn't have a part or voice in the political process.
The current church that I have attended for 30 years has had 6 pastors, and I have attended other WELS(and LCMS) churches over the years occasionally, and have NEVER heard any sermons telling us how to vote, or endorsing a candidate.
That said, our pastors have encourage us to vote pro -life, when there have been pro-life bills up for a vote.
I am very conservative socially, theologically and politically, but I have also been concerned with the recent tendency towards Christian Nationalism I have seen in the last few years.
Jesus said "MY kingdom is not of this World."
That said, of course Christians have every right to express political opinions, vote and hold office, and take part in our government.

 

[J_B_]

Yes, we should vote. Is my pastor that knowledgeable about politics - I'm not 100% sure about that.

My issue lies in the "you're going to hell" part - which I think goes way too far.

I have prayed and discerned about how to vote.

I didn't even bring up the political sides in my post though, so I will continue to leave that part out - as I don't think a person should vote based on a party. I'm also not talking about current new topics, as I really don't care how someone wants to live their life if they're not hurting anybody (that's between them and God).

That type of coercion is illegal, that is if the church is claiming tax-exempt status on religious grounds.

I'm not fond of the American church-state structure, but it was something I studied for my degree, so I understand how we got to where we are.

 

[Angeldove97]

That type of coercion is illegal, that is if the church is claiming tax-exempt status on religious grounds.

I'm not fond of the American church-state structure, but it was something I studied for my degree, so I understand how we got to where we are.

Tax exempt, sure, but who is going to call them out on it and take that away from them in "this day and age" when a bit too many Christians in America are screaming that they are being persecuted?

What does one do who loves the "traditional" way of worshiping but had "moderate to liberal" ideas when it comes to how we treat people in a Christ-like fashion? In the sense of American church-state structure of course. I'm not sure how other nations are dealing with this and I can't leave this nation at this time (nor do I want to).

 

[Halbhh]

Are there similar experiences happening in the Lutheran Church?

I've never heard any similar thing to "vote for ____" candidate, nor even indirectly either.

Nor even an encouragement to vote for either party, etc.

Only once or twice just a reminder to vote (maybe twice in a dozen years), and that in our congregation would mean plenty of votes for both parties.

And that's having heard hundreds of sermons in a Lutheran church, and about 10 different Lutheran pastors.

But, it could be in some places there might be something like that. It's just not here in our church, which is very mainstream Lutheran (ELCA), and also a further encouraging thing:

We have the entire political spectrum in our pews, together, in fellowship.

Doing "Love one another"

Including in particular one of the most conservative individuals (a good friend I've often traveled with), and also one of the most liberal (another friend, where I've often been to her house for parties and I always am delighted to see her with a natural smile, nothing of effort to it...) -- and those 2 are good friends who really smile and enjoy talking together and are close and affectionate.

They love one another, that very conservative friend and that very liberal one.

Because politics is not Christianity, but just worldly.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Tax exempt, sure, but who is going to call them out on it and take that away from them in "this day and age" when a bit too many Christians in America are screaming that they are being persecuted?

What does one do who loves the "traditional" way of worshiping but had "moderate to liberal" ideas when it comes to how we treat people in a Christ-like fashion? In the sense of American church-state structure of course. I'm not sure how other nations are dealing with this and I can't leave this nation at this time (nor do I want to).

There are protestant churches that don't claim tax exempt status because when you do you have more restrictions on your speech from the pulpit. If your not filing for tax exemption then you can say whatever you want from the pulpit as your just a citizen.

However, those churches are usually independent and not any of the mainline churches.

 

[FireDragon76]

In my experience, the ELCA is good at avoiding that sort of thing at the congregational level. The polity is mostly congregational, so you are going to see differences from congregation to congregation. But in general, you aren't going to see pastors telling you who to vote for.

I think that's true in general in the LCMS, for the most part, but you occasionally find more pastors there who get fired up by reactionary politics. I just don't think its as salient as in conservative Reformed churches, which tend to have more culture warriors and Christian nationalist sentiments. Lutherans tend to accept more ambiguity about the relationship between church and state.

 

[FireDragon76]

There are protestant churches that don't claim tax exempt status because when you do you have more restrictions on your speech from the pulpit. If your not filing for tax exemption then you can say whatever you want from the pulpit as your just a citizen.

However, those churches are usually independent and not any of the mainline churches.

Churches are tax exempt by default and do not have to register with the government.

 

[kdm1984]

I think that's true in general in the LCMS, for the most part, but you occasionally find more pastors there who get fired up by reactionary politics. I just don't think its as salient as in conservative Reformed churches, which tend to have more culture warriors and Christian nationalist sentiments. Lutherans tend to accept more ambiguity about the relationship between church and state.

Yes, this is very accurate on all accounts from all I've seen of conservative Lutheran and Reformed communities over the last decade or so. I'd describe them in the exact same way. I'd add that WELS is the least political of the bunch from what I've seen as well, even though we're the most theologically conservative. President Mark Schroeder had a very good article on two kingdoms a few years ago that describes the approach of most WELS quite well:

A tale of two kingdoms

Mark G. Schroeder Throughout 2017 we are celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Lutheran Reformation. As Lutheran Christians, we recognize that the single greatest blessing God gave to his church through Martin Luther was the rediscovery of the

wels.net

 

[Halbhh]

even though we're the most theologically conservative.

Do you mean compared to just Missouri synod? If you mean also compared to ELCA, we could have an interesting discussion on that. (having been teaching ELCA confirmation, by the standard materials, we are very conservative theologically, and in the best sense of that, hewing word for word to the teachings of Christ...)

Nice link at the end there.
"Luther returned to the Scriptures and emphasized that these two kingdoms, both established by God, have separate and distinct roles to play. The church’s role is to be spiritual, limited to proclaiming the message of the Scriptures and leading people to Christ. The government’s role is to be God’s agent to keep order in society, to protect its citizens from physical harm, and to punish wrongdoers. For either kingdom to assume the role of the other is a violation of God’s divine arrangement. Since both are established by God, Christians have a responsibility to recognize and to support both kingdoms."

True, very important, and well written.

 

[Markie Boy]

They shouldn't tell you who to vote for. BUT - the churches I have been to that have actual, good Biblical teaching are clear that, transgenderism, same sex marriage, and abortion are all clear evil.

One party is clearly heavily in favor of those things. If your conscience is formed by Scriptural teaching, I don't know how one would support that group.

 

[Halbhh]

good Biblical teaching are clear that, transgenderism, same sex marriage, and abortion are all clear evil.

But do you hear in that church you need to instead focus your attention to confess and repent of your own evils, instead of guessing about the evils of others -- Matthew 7:1-5, 1rst John 1?

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:1-5 - New International Version

Judging Others - “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can...

www.biblegateway.com

A good biblical church doesn't preach on sins no one in the congregation is even doing.... but tries to help each person become humble and admit their own sins, so that they the person who is currently lost, by judging others...might instead confess their own wrongs, repent, and be cleansed and restored:

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 1 - New International Version

The Incarnation of the Word of Life - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[FireDragon76]

That might fly in American Evangelical churches, but it's not the norm even in conservative Lutheran bodies. Peoples consciences can be formed by the Church, but the Church does not have the right to dictate how people vote.

 

[JM]

That might fly in American Evangelical churches, but it's not the norm even in conservative Lutheran bodies. Peoples consciences can be formed by the Church, but the Church does not have the right to dictate how people vote.

What should be done if the person fails to be formed by the Church, the Word and Sacrament, and they continue in willfully sinning and or promoting sin?

 

[Halbhh]

What should be done if the person fails to be formed by the Church, the Word and Sacrament, and they continue in willfully sinning and or promoting sin?

Then they need to hear the gospel, so that that God can convict them of sin, and they might come to faith, confess they are a sinner (we all must do this), and rely on Christ in faith for the forgiveness of their sins.

The only way anyone is saved according to the instructions to us in the New Testament.

 

[FireDragon76]

What should be done if the person fails to be formed by the Church, the Word and Sacrament, and they continue in willfully sinning and or promoting sin?

A church doesn't have the authority to excommunicate somebody simply because of the way they vote.

 

[JM]

A church doesn't have the authority to excommunicate somebody simply because of the way they vote.

Should there be a division in the Christian life, one informed by the Church and another not?

 

[Halbhh]

What should be done if the person fails to be formed by the Church, the Word and Sacrament, and they continue in willfully sinning and or promoting sin?

This is where joining a Lutheran church would help on that very much (or a very full reading through the New Testament). We teach from scripture that we are all sinners. So, it's not that some of us are good, and those other people over there are sinners and need our reproach. Instead, when people hear the gospel, some will be convicted of their sin, and turn to Christ in faith, repenting, and be saved. And then God will do the work over time on them they need, so long as they continue to trust in Christ and confess their sins over time as they go through life. This is all just literally bible verses, every bit. Ask if you want to see the passages.

A church is very helpful in that in our churches we demonstrate confession, and faith, and listening to Christ, and keeping our focus on Him, working to follow Him, to do as He taught we are to do.
But it's God who saves us, not ourselves and not our judging, but His work in us.