How is "justification" defined?

[Geralt]

- righteous is an earned title, the requirement is obedience. you obey therefore you are/become righteous. God's law is the the basis of obedience.
- in Gods norm, this means perfect obedience to become perfect righteous before a perfect and holy God.
- in justification this means Christs perfect obedience of the law= Christ's perfect righteousness becomes the believer's "earned" righteousness, 'extra nos' - outside himself, by faith. we are therefore are not righteous by our own obedience (which we cannot), but MADE righteous by someone who is.

OK, thank you.

Just to be even more clear, could you also provide the definition of "righteous" from the same source?

 

[St_Worm2]

That's because the RCC thinks salvation is by God's grace and not something a person earns by believing in Jesus.

Hi Samir, Protestants don't teach that a person earns or merits salvation by "believing" anymore than RC's do. The Bible is clear, we are "saved by grace", IOW, by God's gracious choice to do so. Nevertheless, "faith" and "belief" do play more than a minor role in becoming a Christian as the following examples indicate:

"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." ~John 3:16

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ~John 3:18

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." ~John 5:24

"This is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” ~John 6:40

"These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name." ~John 20.31

"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" ~Romans 4:5

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." ~Romans 10:9-10​

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" ~Ephesians 2:8-9

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." ~1 John 5:13
​

So if the RCC tried to teach that "faith" and "belief" have nothing to do with salvation, they certainly seem like they'd be hard-pressed to do so, wouldn't you say?

@Open Heart, you're this thread's resident Roman Catholic, so what say you, does the RCC teach that faith/believing has nothing to do with salvation

What do you mean by not enough to save us? If you don't have to do anything because Christ did it all then faith wouldn't be necessary and no one would have to believe anything to get to heaven.

We come to "saving faith" in Christ because God changes/regenerates us, giving us the needed desire and the ability to do so. So while we are the ones doing the "believing", it's only possible for us to believe because God made it possible. Saving faith is a "gift" that God gives to His Elect (Ephesians 2:8; cf Acts 13:48).

As far as what I meant by "not enough", here's an example to consider, 50,000 years spent in Purgatory trying to become righteous enough, when God has already made those of us who are His children the very, "righteousness of God", in His Son
(2 Corinthians 5:21; cf Romans 3:21-28). 50,000,000,000,000 years of purging could never achieve the level of righteousness that Christ has already merited for each of us

Yours and His,
David

 

[bling]

We come to "saving faith" in Christ because God changes/regenerates us, giving us the needed desire and the ability to do so. So while we are the ones doing the "believing", it's only possible for us to believe because God made it possible. Saving faith is a "gift" that God gives to His Elect (Ephesians 2:8; cf Acts 13:48).

You are misinterpreting Eph. 2:8



I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:



And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ͂ touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ́ pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ͂ touto ) refers to "faith" ( ́ pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.



Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8, ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)



Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8, kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)



Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)



"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).



You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not seen alternatives among scholars.



Please look carefully: More then just the grammar you have to explore all the context: Eph. 2: 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.



The gift is taught to not be gotten by works, so if the “gift” was “faith” how would someone even consider getting “faith” by working for it? That is not a plausible concept that would need to be expressed and especially taught against. We are taught in scripture other places that you can not earn or work for salvation and it is a gift. But where else is it taught to not “work” to earn “faith”? We understand “faith” as trusting in God for our salvation and not working to earn salvation.



As far as Acts 13: 48 goes:



God has ordained or foreordained from the beginning of time that all those that believed would be given eternal life. It is not that the “ordaining to eternal life” that forced some gentiles to believe, but they believed which were also foreordained to eternal lives as a result of that believe. Eternal life and believe go together, but we know you have to believe to have eternal life and you are not “gifted” with eternal life without believing.

You might look at alternative interpretations of Acts 13:48 and go through the 8 times the Greek word “hosoi ēsan tetagmenoi” is used in scripture to consider other alternatives.

 

[samir]

Hi Samir, Protestants don't teach that a person earns or merits salvation by "believing" anymore than RC's do. The Bible is clear, we are "saved by grace", IOW, by God's gracious choice to do so. Nevertheless, "faith" and "belief" do play more than a minor role in becoming a Christian as the following examples indicate:

"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." ~John 3:16

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ~John 3:18

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." ~John 5:24

"This is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” ~John 6:40

"These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name." ~John 20.31

"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" ~Romans 4:5

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." ~Romans 10:9-10​

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" ~Ephesians 2:8-9

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." ~1 John 5:13
​

So if the RCC tried to teach that "faith" and "belief" have nothing to do with salvation, they certainly seem like they'd be hard-pressed to do so, wouldn't you say?

@Open Heart, you're this thread's resident Roman Catholic, so what say you, does the RCC teach that faith/believing has nothing to do with salvation

I did NOT say the RCC taught that faith had nothing to do with salvation. What I'm saying is that although both faith and works are necessary, it is ultimately God's grace that saves. I said that to explain how babies can be saved without believing in Jesus. Are you saying all babies are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus?

We come to "saving faith" in Christ because God changes/regenerates us, giving us the needed desire and the ability to do so. So while we are the ones doing the "believing", it's only possible for us to believe because God made it possible. Saving faith is a "gift" that God gives to His Elect (Ephesians 2:8; cf Acts 13:48).

The RCC also teaches that faith and love are gifts from God.

As far as what I meant by "not enough", here's an example to consider, 50,000 years spent in Purgatory trying to become righteous enough, when God has already made those of us who are His children the very, "righteousness of God", in His Son
(2 Corinthians 5:21; cf Romans 3:21-28). 50,000,000,000,000 years of purging could never achieve the level of righteousness that Christ has already merited for each of us

Yours and His,
David

Most Protestants I talked to told me that although God says believers are righteous they think believers are just as wicked and sinful as everyone else. Revelation says nothing unclean shall enter so if you die still attached to sin you cannot enter heaven unless God purifies you and makes you clean. Purgatory is the name for that state of purification.

 

[Open Heart]

Hi OH, I was baptized as an infant as I believe most still are in the church (or have things changed recently?). How can an infant renounce Satan or profess Christ? (yet the RCC teaches that they saved APART from believing at that point because of water baptism, yes?)

The parents and God-parents take the baptismal vows on behalf of the child, until the child is old enough to do so for themself.

 

[Open Heart]

The soteriological issue that I (and most Protestants) have with the RCC is the teaching that what Christ accomplished for us by His life, death and resurrection is not enough to save us, that there is more, much more in fact (if you include Purgatory)

I quoted for you the statement in the catechism that we are justified by Christ and his sacrifice on the cross. The fact that you misunderstand Purgatory and think that it saves us tells me that your understanding of Catholicism is gravely lacking in some areas. Purgatory has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. The only people who go to Purgatory are those who are already saved.

 

[Open Heart]

And this brings us to the heart of the matter (as Father Z would attest), which is best seen and contrasted in the RCC doctrine of "infusion", and the Protestant doctrine of "imputation" (perhaps we should take the time to compare and contrast these two doctrines ... perhaps in a different thread? ).

Funny. Although this is certainly a difference, I have never thought of this as a major difference. I post on apologetic boards and I've never had a Protestant bring this up before.

 

[Open Heart]

Hi Samir, Protestants don't teach that a person earns or merits salvation by "believing" anymore than RC's do. The Bible is clear, we are "saved by grace", IOW, by God's gracious choice to do so. Nevertheless, "faith" and "belief" do play more than a minor role in becoming a Christian as the following examples indicate:

Quite true and well said. I'm too lazy right now to look up the verses, which are many, but good works plays a part too. In as much as you do so to the least of these my brethren you do it unto me....but the righteous into eternal life, So you see that you are saved by works and not by faith alone, You were created unto good works, What must I do for eternal life? Jesus answers, obey the commandments.

 

[DingDing]

- righteous is an earned title, the requirement is obedience. you obey therefore you are/become righteous. God's law is the the basis of obedience.
- in Gods norm, this means perfect obedience to become perfect righteous before a perfect and holy God.
- in justification this means Christs perfect obedience of the law= Christ's perfect righteousness becomes the believer's "earned" righteousness, 'extra nos' - outside himself, by faith. we are therefore are not righteous by our own obedience (which we cannot), but MADE righteous by someone who is.

So are you saying no level of obedience required? Just sign on the bottom line, and then go out and sin?

And righteous does not normally mean perfect obedience. Please do a word search on "righteous" and tell me what you find.

 

[St_Worm2]

Are you saying all babies are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus?

Hi Samir, though our children are conceived with a fallen nature (Psalms 51:5) thanks to the disobedience of our progenitors, God doesn't judge our "nature", He judges our thoughts and our actions based upon our personal knowledge and understanding of His Law, or of the law that He writes in each man/woman's heart (see Romans 2:12-16).

Babies have no personal knowledge or understanding of the Law, so they cannot be judged. Those who die at such an early age are always Heaven-bound as a result.

Most Protestants I talked to told me that although God says believers are righteous they think believers are just as wicked and sinful as everyone else.

My user name and my Latin signature line below (Simul Justus et Peccator .. "At the same time just and sinner") attest to that very thing

Revelation says nothing unclean shall enter so if you die still attached to sin you cannot enter heaven unless God purifies you and makes you clean. Purgatory is the name for that state of purification.

Right, we (believers) are made the very, "righteousness of God", in His Son (and that we will be when we are no longer in the flesh and no longer on this side of the grave). How much more righteous do you believe that it's possible for us to become than that (cf Romans 3:21-28)

Yours and His,
David

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our
behalf, so that in Him we might become
the righteousness of God"
2 Corinthians 5:21​

 

[Open Heart]

So are you saying no level of obedience required? Just sign on the bottom line, and then go out and sin?

And righteous does not normally mean perfect obedience. Please do a word search on "righteous" and tell me what you find.

Thank you! The voice of reason.

 

[samir]

Hi Samir, though our children are conceived with a fallen nature (Psalms 51:5) thanks to the disobedience of our progenitors, God doesn't judge our "nature", He judges our thoughts and our actions based upon our personal knowledge and understanding of His Law, or of the law that He writes in each man/woman's heart (see Romans 2:12-16).

Babies have no personal knowledge or understanding of the Law, so they cannot be judged.

Understood. I agree babies won't go to hell.

Those who die at such an early age are always Heaven-bound as a result.

How did you arrive at that conclusion? If they can't be judged then it seems like they can't be rewarded with Heaven either since they've done nothing good. Seems they deserve neither heaven nor hell and must go somewhere else.

My user name and my Latin signature line below (Simul Justus et Peccator .. "At the same time just and sinner") attest to that very thing

How can a person be righteous and a sinner when they are complete opposites?

Right, we (believers) are made the very, "righteousness of God", in His Son (and that we will be when we are no longer in the flesh and no longer on this side of the grave). How much more righteous do you believe that it's possible for us to become than that (cf Romans 3:21-28)

Yours and His,
David

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our
behalf, so that in Him we might become
the righteousness of God"
2 Corinthians 5:21​

So you're saying you're not righteous but will become righteous sometime after you pass away?

 

[hedrick]

So please, hedrick and others, please answer these questions. What is the Sermon teaching? What is Paul saying in Romans 2? (And there are many other passages I could quote.) The point is, there are many passages which tie salvation (or faith, or justification, or whatever you want to call it) to moral behavior.

That’s not so clear. Jesus is uncompromising on standards, and says we will be accountable. But that’s only one of his emphases. The other is on God’s forgiveness.

I believe that anyone who retains faith (in the Protestant sense of faith) is forgiven. What do I mean by the Protestant sense? For us faith isn’t just belief in specific things. It’s trusting to God for our salvation. And I think also acknowledge of our need for forgiveness. I don’t believe someone who lacks repentance can be said to have faith.

But I don’t think that means God is keeping a list of sins, and if we fail to request forgiveness for one of them, we’re doomed. Check a Bible search program or a concordance, and see how Jesus uses repent. He normally uses it for a general change in orientation, not for individual sins. When Jesus shows people as judged, it’s not for one action for which they failed to repent. It’s for a life that shows no sign that one is a follower of Christ at all: a tree with no fruit, salt with no taste, not doing the Father’s will, being ashamed of Jesus, mistreating others.

The Sermon on the Mount is a difficult example, since most of its threats of judgement are clearly hyperbole. People are thrown into hell for not amputating a part of the body. One interesting passage from it says that you’ll be forgiven if you forgive others. Is that meant literally? Nothing other than forgiving? Nothing else required? It’s hard to turn all of Jesus’ statements about judgement in a single prescription for how judgement is going to be done. But his statements about forgiveness seem fairly blanket. When Jesus forgives, he forgives people of all their sins, not just one.

There are examples in the Gospel of people who turn away. In parable, the classic would be the prodigal son. He has to repent to come back. But I think that’s different from a person who remains a follower and sins.

This doesn’t mean that I think Jesus will ignore his followers’ sins. 1 Cor 3:12 gives a fairly scary picture of that kind of judgement. Jesus also speaks of varying rewards.

 

[St_Worm2]

How did you arrive at that conclusion? If they can't be judged then it seems like they can't be rewarded with Heaven either since they've done nothing good. Seems they deserve neither heaven nor hell and must go somewhere else.

All deserve Hell (i.e. Romans 3:9-12; Romans 3:23), none "deserve" Heaven in and of themselves (except the One who came from Heaven in the first place, of course ). However, unborn children and infants, though fallen, are innocent of wrongdoing because they either 1) haven't done anything wrong or 2) can't be held accountable for that which they do not know and cannot comprehend.

BTW, if there is a "3rd place", what is it called, where would such a place be, and where is in mentioned in the Scriptures? Thanks!

How can a person be righteous and a sinner when they are complete opposites?

Hopefully these excerpts will help explain it:

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" ~Matt 26:41

​

The Conflict of Two Natures​

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from athe body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. ~Romans 7​

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - when we die and leave this world, we will no longer have two natures that are in conflict with each other

 

[DingDing]

That’s not so clear. ...

Please think about your reply. Is this your whole and only response? You have not yet even addressed the scriptures I have mentioned. Please, to the best of your ability, address the two scriptures I mentioned (the Sermon and Romans 2:5-10). And ask for help from others if you need to; but please address the scriptures I mentioned. This really is important stuff.

 

[samir]

All deserve Hell... However, unborn children and infants, though fallen, are innocent of wrongdoing because they either 1) haven't done anything wrong or 2) can't be held accountable for that which they do not know and cannot comprehend.

You're contradicting yourself. If infants haven't done anything wrong and can't be held accountable then why do you think they deserve Hell?

BTW, if there is a "3rd place", what is it called, where would such a place be, and where is in mentioned in the Scriptures? Thanks!

If infants don't believe and haven't accepted Christ then they can't go to Heaven. Therefore, they must go to Hell. If they don't go to Heaven or Hell then logically they must go somewhere else. The 3rd place is called limbo and you can find it taught in scripture in several places in both the Old and New Testaments.

Hopefully these excerpts will help explain it:

​

The Conflict of Two Natures​

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from athe body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. ~Romans 7​

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - when we die and leave this world, we will no longer have two natures that are in conflict with each other

How does Paul explaining his condition when he was a Jew struggling to fulfill the law of Moses explain your belief that a person can be righteous and a sinner at the same time?

Scripture says the Lord favors the righteous and is against those who are sinners so a person can't be both.

 

[Geralt]

- it has been accused that way,but that is antinomianism. if God saves people, He changes them. only the unregenerate can ever make such conclusions for lack of experience.
- in God's standard, yes. perfect righteousness, James 2:10. there is the dictionary and then there is the bible. pick your choose.

So are you saying no level of obedience required? Just sign on the bottom line, and then go out and sin?

And righteous does not normally mean perfect obedience. Please do a word search on "righteous" and tell me what you find.

 

[St_Worm2]

You're contradicting yourself. If infants haven't done anything wrong and can't be held accountable then why do you think they deserve Hell?

Infants and unborn children are still, "by nature, children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3), fallen in Adam. But we believe God graciously chooses to save them as part of the elect. As you know, there is not a lot on this in the Scriptures, so some of this is admittedly conjecture, but there are reasons we believe what we do (some of which have already been mentioned in this thread).

If infants don't believe and haven't accepted Christ then they can't go to Heaven. Therefore, they must go to Hell. If they don't go to Heaven or Hell then logically they must go somewhere else. The 3rd place is called limbo and you can find it taught in scripture in several places in both the Old and New Testaments.

The first part is answered already, but please, tell me where to find the doctrine of "Limbo" in the Bible. The funny thing is, I've both read and heard that "Limbo" is a dying doctrine in the RCC, and is rarely taught anymore. Have you not heard the same?

How does Paul explaining his condition when he was a Jew struggling to fulfill the law of Moses explain your belief that a person can be righteous and a sinner at the same time?

Scripture says the Lord favors the righteous and is against those who are sinners so a person can't be both.

I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but all of us, both saints and reprobates, are sinners, both by nature and by choice (Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:22). None are utterly righteous while in the flesh, we can't be.

As for St. Paul in Romans 7, he's not speaking there as Saul, the Jew, who had but one nature, he's speaking as St. Paul who is born again, and as such struggles with the conflict of his two natures, one old, one new, one worldly/sinful, the other, spiritual/righteous. He, in fact, commands us to put away the old self and put on the new (i.e. Ephesians 4:17-24; Colossians 3:10; cf Romans 12:2; Romans 13:14).

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[EmSw]

Infants and unborn children are still, "by nature, children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3), fallen in Adam. But we believe God graciously chooses to save them as part of the elect. As you know, there is not a lot on this in the Scriptures, so some of this is admittedly conjecture, but there are reasons we believe what we do (some of which have already been mentioned in this thread).

The scriptures that are available, put your belief against God. No one is responsible or held accountable for other's sins - NO ONE!

Ezekiel 18
The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

17...He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; he shall surely live!

God said we shall no longer use this proverb. Yet many today do just that. No one shall die for the iniquity of his father - NO ONE! The beliefs which have crept into the church are amazing.

As far as Ephesians 2 is concerned, people do not read what it actually says.

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

The children of wrath are those who ONCE WALKED according to the world in the sons of disobedience. These children of wrath all once conducted themselves in the lusts of the flesh. This is absolutely nothing which is talking about unborn children - NONE!

Unless you believe in reincarnation, this has nothing to do with unborn children.

 

[expos4ever]

- in justification this means Christs perfect obedience of the law=....

I am always surprised when I see people claiming that Christ was perfectly obedient to the Law of Moses.

He was anything but:

1. Jesus tells his audience that no food makes them unclean! This is in direct contradiction to the Law of Moses;
2. Jesus touches a menstruating women and dead bodies - both render one unclean according to the Law of Moses;
3. Jesus declares that He is the place to go for forgiveness of sins; the Law of Moses says you go to the Temple;
4. Jesus broke the Sabbath.

...and I think there a lot more.