How hell can make sense...

[mmksparbud]

I addressed this back in post #142

I notice that you have ignored most of what I said and continue to press this same argument. And you are ignoring Eccl 3:21 where the author of Eccl 9 did not know what happens to a man's spirit when he dies but somehow, according to you, in chap. 9 he is supposed to be describing man's eternal fate.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?​

Try reading all the verses I quoted.
Trying to contradict the NT with an OT verse.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.​

"From one from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another" means "from month to month and week to week"

225 BC LXX Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass from month to month, and from sabbath to sabbath, that all flesh shall come to worship before me in Jerusalem, saith the Lord.
Targum Isa 66:23
23 And it shall come to pass at the time of the beginning of each month, and at the time of each Sabbath, that all flesh shall come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
[PreChristian Aramaic translation of Isaiah]
NET Isa 66:23 From one month to the next and from one Sabbath to the next, all people will come to worship me,” says the Lord.​

Well, that's just a repeat of what you already said and that I already stated that no need of sunlight does not mean there is not one and that still means new moon to new moon.
And you never have answered why God did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would live forever in torment---that is what you say the price of sin is---eternal torment. Which still means you have not answered why Christ does not have to spend eternity in hell, when that is the price, not just death. He paid the price that God said Adam and Eve would pay---death.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Der Alte]

do you want them to suffer eternally?
please don't quote the bible -
I am asking you -
do you want them to suffer eternally?

Did you even read the verses I cited? Did Jesus want those on the left hand to go away into everlasting punishment? Did Jesus want those in Matthew 13:42 and Matthew 26:24 to experience a fate worse than death? Did the writer of Hebrews 10:28-31 want certain people to experience a fate worse than death?
What I want and what you want is irrelevant. What does the word of God say?
I know you can produce a handful of out-of-context proof texts but nothing can contradict the words of Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, that's just a repeat of what you already said and that I already stated that no need of sunlight does not mean there is not one and that still means new moon to new moon.
And you never have answered why God did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would live forever in torment---that is what you say the price of sin is---eternal torment. Which still means you have not answered why Christ does not have to spend eternity in hell, when that is the price, not just death. He paid the price that God said Adam and Eve would pay---death.

Since you are ignoring my posts I will return the compliment. But I will continue to point out the errors in your posts. I quoted three translations which show that "from one new moon to another, one Sabbath to another" means "month to month, week to week."

 

[mmksparbud]

I haven't ignored them--I've answered them, you just don't like the answers and want to worm your way out of answering mine, which I asked eons ago and so did someone else and you ignored them then, too.

 

[victorinus]

What I want and what you want is irrelevant.

I think it is relevant -
do you want them to suffer eternally?

 

[Der Alte]

I think it is relevant -
do you want them to suffer eternally?

I repeat what I said, what I want and what you want is irrelevant. If I wanted the unrighteous to be punished eternally and God did not what I want would not matter. And If I did not want the unrighteous to be punished eternally and God did what I want would not matter.
If CI or UR were true Jesus would not have said the things He did in,
Matthew 25:46
Mark 9:43-48
Matthew 13:42
Matthew 13:50
Matthew 18:6
Matthew 26:24
And the writer of Hebrews would not have said
Hebrews 10:28-31
Further I cannot find where Jesus ever taught either CI or UR.

 

[Der Alte]

I haven't ignored them--I've answered them, you just don't like the answers and want to worm your way out of answering mine, which I asked eons ago and so did someone else and you ignored them then, too.

Wrong! Prove it?

 

[victorinus]

I repeat what I said, what I want and what you want is irrelevant.

what you want affects your interpretation of scripture
-and-
it doesn't look good

 

[Der Alte]

what you want affects your interpretation of scripture
-and-
it doesn't look good

I got a big laugh out of this. Unlike some here I did not grow up in a/the church. I did go to Sunday school as a child, when forced to by my grandmother. Until my mid 20s my Bible knowledge consisted of knowing some of the OT hero stories David, Samson etc. I became a Christian when Johnson was president and did not bring any preconceptions with me. It would suit me just fine if there was no hell but unfortunately I do find it in scripture.

 

[victorinus]

It would suit me just fine if there was no hell but unfortunately I do find it in scripture.

what you find in scripture is your interpretation of it

 

[Der Alte]

what you find in scripture is your interpretation of it

My post #23 this thread. A lot of hand waving and pooh poohing but never refuted!

 

[mmksparbud]

Wrong! Prove it?

Wrong! Prove it?

LOL! you want me to prove you did not answered the question of the price Jesus paid for us? It's not in any post of yours! He paid the price of death----He is not spending eternity in hell. That is the price you say it is---eternity in torment. He didn't pay it. He paid the price of death. The only price that God imposed to Adam and Eve.And if you're going to throw that verse about preaching to the souls in hell--doesn't come close to spending eternity in torment.

 

[Radrook]

The eternal torment idea requires that we rationalize things inflicted on humans as being just which we would never approve of being inflicted on an animal.

 

[victorinus]

The eternal torment idea requires that we rationalize things inflicted on humans as being just which we would never approve of being inflicted on an animal.

it's a test to see who wants others to suffer forever

 

[Radrook]

it's a test to see who wants others to suffer forever

There was this lady who always tried to convince my parents to return to church by threatening them with eternal damnation in a lake of fire. She would ask them to imagine themselves naked in boiling oil while demons would be pitchforking them from all imaginable angles. Her face would turn beet red from vehement emotion as she described it. Then she would invariably finish her description with: "Well, are you going to attend church now? "and my father would always calmly respond after a brief silent pause and expressionless look on his face with,

"Well, I will have to think about it!"

She was once confronted by a JWs who challenged her belief in eternal torment and she finished the discussion with:

"If nobody is going to burn like you are saying, then what is the sense of having deprived myself of all the things I could have been doing otherwise?"

 

[Neogaia777]

I already brought up some form or re-incarnation being connected to hell...

We all astral project, which is spirit travel, this is also putting yourself in someone else's, or something else's shoes... Some people who do this call themselves "Empaths"...

Our spirits in us could be eternal, or some very close to it, (wicked, disobedient spirits)... And could go through a recycling of some kind connected to the theory of re-incarnation, past lives, other incarnations of yourself, though not yourself, but the spirit(s) in us...

I think their is some truth to the theory of Karma, Biblically...

Yin and Yang, could be some truth to that also, biblically, a "double-minded" man, or our dual nature in Psychology... The two angels on top of the Ark of the Covenant...

Anyone think of others?

 

[Neogaia777]

re-posting...

Anyone have more...?

 

[Der Alte]

LOL! you want me to prove you did not answered the question of the price Jesus paid for us? It's not in any post of yours! He paid the price of death----He is not spending eternity in hell. That is the price you say it is---eternity in torment. He didn't pay it. He paid the price of death. The only price that God imposed to Adam and Eve.And if you're going to throw that verse about preaching to the souls in hell--doesn't come close to spending eternity in torment.

The eternal torment idea requires that we rationalize things inflicted on humans as being just which we would never approve of being inflicted on an animal.

My post #23 reposted.

Begin

No matter how many times this topic is posted and replied to, the same questions and arguments keep being posted over and over.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b) .
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10 ). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al ). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I. ​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say "eternal death" in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
Some people argue that when Jesus referred to Gehenna He was referring to the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem where there were supposedly constantly burning fires where trash and dead bodies were thrown.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in

The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/​

End

 

[Neogaia777]

The western and eastern views on re-incarnation differ greatly... The west see's it, as a good, positive thing... While the east see's it as a bad, negative thing...

The east view's it as a fate we cannot escape based on our karma, and that our karma is maybe never good enough to escape, or transcend this, into a higher form, which their religions try to change by self-effort and our own good, or righteousness... Consequently, this is the same as the old way in the OT, to show it's failure and point to Christ...

I think the eastern view is correct, and that it is what hell really is... We cannot transcend or escape it due to our karma, without help or divine assistance, and that assistance is Christ...

Only through and by him can we escape our fate and transcend this place, into a better, higher one, in a higher form...

What do you think...?

God Bless!