How hell can make sense...

[mmksparbud]

It seems like "eternal life" is referring to being alive not in the organic sense, but in the spiritual sense. And then as far as death being the inevitable result of sin, that seems to imply that sin could kill both the organic body and also the spiritual or soul, since while there is no avoiding the organic death, via salvation from Christ, even though the organic body will die, the spiritual form can still live, and be given a heavenly body, perhaps interpreted as a celestial body. But then those who are not saved, will not only die an organic death, but also a spiritual death (Matthew 10:28). Which maybe is described in 2 Thessalonians 1, as in the spiritual death being the complete separation from the Lord, which is also described as "eternal destruction."

This makes sense to me personally, anyway, based on one very close encounter with organic death.

As far as the worm talk in Isaiah, this is where all it gets mentioned, from the search I am trying to do, it starts in Isaiah 14, which is a "proverb against the king of Babylon" which later addresses Lucifer, specifically by name, and mentions that "The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you" referring to him.

So then later on in Isaiah 41, it says "“Fear not, you worm Jacob, You men of Israel! I will help you,” says the Lord" followed by later in Isaiah 51 with "“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law: Do not fear the reproach of men, Nor be afraid of their insults. For the moth will eat them up like a garment, And the worm will eat them like wool; But My righteousness will be forever, And My salvation from generation to generation.”

And then finally in Isaiah 66 - "And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. “And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

So that is the full context for the worm mentions. Well the whole book of Isaiah is the full context, but those are the parts that mention the maggots/worms.

It says--"And the worm will eat them like wool"---which doesn't sound like the bodies live forever---but it sounds like the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

So if you're going by this, best not eat pork--or mice.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[victorinus]

fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[mmksparbud]

None of these lead to souls=worms---


Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

That just means that in comparison we are worms, doesn't say our souls are worms. Which doesn't matter anyway as Jesus said "fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul" so both will be destroyed anyway.

 

[victorinus]

It just says that He is able to do it, not that God will do it.

why wouldn't He do it?
do you think God prefers them to suffer eternally?

 

[Der Alte]

why wouldn't He do it?
do you think God prefers them to suffer eternally?

2 Peter 3:9
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Matthew 7:22-23 (22)Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Daniel 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[mmksparbud]

The whole thing of people being tormented forever tells more about the people who believe this than God. God is just, He alone can hand out true justice. We are not more just than He is, and we can see the injustice of anyone being tormented forever. But some people seem to find some sort of joy, comfort in thinking that people will be suffering forever. Do they have unforgiveness at their heart? Unhealed hurts? Unresolved anger issues? Or have they never loved anyone who was not perfect? The thought that my brother would be tormented forever for being a drug addict is horrible. He was his own worst enemy and he suffered much in this world and now has eternity to keep on suffering?? No---that is not justice. Justice requires payment of the penalty for sin--which is death. It is what God said Adam and Eve would suffer if they sinned and it is the price we will pay if we are not saved---eternal death, not eternal life in torment.

 

[victorinus]

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

how is everlasting punishment possible without life eternal?

 

[masmpg]

Were you before or are you now wicked? If either, what happened to that wicked person? Are you a new creation in Christ? If so then that wicked person you used to be no longer exists, thanks to the love of God.

I really don't understand what you are saying here? If you are stating that after we die we will be made new in Christ after we burn for some period of time, well that is the RCC doctrine of purgatory which is not biblical. The bible states that when we die our thoughts perish, and those who go into the grave do not praise God.

 

[Der Alte]

how is everlasting punishment possible without life eternal?

This made me laugh. You don't like what scripture says talk to God about it. I didn't write it I only quoted it.
.....There are three Greek words translated "life" in the NT, zoe, bios and pneuma. Only zoe is ever used with "eternal."
.....In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage is figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
.....The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

 

[notforgotten]

It is the human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife. The soul is in need of salvation. Upon the death of the Christian, Jesus restores the soul with His powers before going to heaven to be with Him, Father God, the angels, family and friends.

 

[Der Alte]

I really don't understand what you are saying here? If you are stating that after we die we will be made new in Christ after we burn for some period of time, well that is the RCC doctrine of

purgatory which is not biblical. The bible states that when we die our thoughts perish, and those who go into the grave do not praise God

My Bible has 31,172 verses. Your two proof texts are out-of-context.

 

[masmpg]

The real truth on hell is or has been hidden from us. We are all using the same scripture but come out with many views.
For something as serious as this issue, it would seem appropriate for the bible to be crystal clear. It is not.

The bible is crystal clear on this issue. Far too many have made up opinions that are foreign to the bible. Here are some verses that tell us exactly what happens after death, and where we go.
Genesis:2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Man does not HVAE a soul man IS a soul. Paul states in Romans:8:16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Notice the lowercase s and the upper case S. God breathed into our nostrils His breath spirit, not the Holy Spirit which we must continually invite into our lives. When we die this small s spirit goes back to Him, but there is no memory, nor character in it.
Ecclesiastes:12:7: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Ecclesiastes:9:5&6&10: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." 9:10: "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
David even tells us about what happens in Psalms:146:3&4: "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
Psalms:6:5: "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
Job:27:3: "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;" Job:14:12: "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job:19:25-27: "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."

And after hell is finished burning the wicked will be ashes under our feet. Malachi:4:1-3: "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

I could get into much more detail here but I have written all this out many times on here.

There is one more statement about satan, he shall never be again. Ezekiel:28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

 

[Der Alte]

The bible is crystal clear on this issue. Far too many have made up opinions that are foreign to the bible. Here are some verses that tell us exactly what happens after death, and where we go.
Genesis:2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Man does not HVAE a soul man IS a soul. Paul states in Romans:8:16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

Notice the lowercase s and the upper case S. God breathed into our nostrils His breath spirit, not the Holy Spirit which we must continually invite into our lives.

There were no different cases in Hebrew or Greek, no upper case S, no lower case "s." All the letters are the same.

When we die this small s spirit goes back to Him, but there is no memory, nor character in it.
Ecclesiastes:12:7: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

Ecclesiastes:9:5&6&10: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." 9:10: "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

The same out-of-context proof texts over and over. Anybody can prove almost anything about the Bible by quoting selective proof texts out-of-context.
.....Ecclesiastes 9:5 is often cited by those who do not believe in eternal punishment but think that the dead are annihilated at death, or lapse into some kind of soul sleep. They usually quote the second clause of the verse, out-of-context, “the dead know not any thing,”

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

As can be clearly seen, when read in context, vs. 5 does not refer to the eternal condition of the dead.
.....This passage is clearly referring to the relationship of the dead with those still living. The phrase, “all things that are done under the sun” or “any thing that is done under the sun,” occurs twice. The dead are not aware of, a part of, or involved in anything that happens “under the sun,” i.e., this present life..
.....The full passage mentions several negative things about the dead. They do not know anything. They do not have any more reward. Memory of them is forgotten. All their mortal emotions, love, hatred, envy, have perished. They have no part of anything that is done under the sun, i.e. this lifetime. Everything negative that is mentioned refers to the relationship of the dead with the living, in this world, i.e. “under the sun.” If this passage refers to the eternal condition of the dead then even the righteous would not have, “any more a reward.”
.....The phrase "under the sun" occurs 29 times in Ecclesiastes, 6 times in chapter 9. The writer of Ecclesiastes did not know what happens to a man's spirit at death.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? ​

David even tells us about what happens in Psalms:146:3&4: "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
Psalms:6:5: "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
Job:27:3: "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;" Job:14:12: "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job:19:25-27: "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."

And after hell is finished burning the wicked will be ashes under our feet. Malachi:4:1-3: "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do

wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall

the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

Another out-of-context proof text. This passage describes what happens on one day, the day that God judges earth. The righteous will not be trampling on the ashes of the unrighteous for all eternity, in paradise.

I could get into much more detail here but I have written all this out many times on here.
There is one more statement about satan, he shall never be again. Ezekiel:28:19:

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

Yet another out-of-context proof text. Ezekiel 28 is not about Satan it is about the king of Tyrus.

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD;...​

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[mmksparbud]

Talk about out of context

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.As can be clearly seen, when read in context, vs. 5 does not refer to the eternal condition of the dead.
.....This passage is clearly referring to the relationship of the dead with those still living. The phrase, “all things that are done under the sun” or “any thing that is done under the sun,” occurs twice. The dead are not aware of, a part of, or involved in anything that happens “under the sun,” i.e., this present life..

What you say is not at all what the text says. It clearly states the dead no nothing, they have nothing with anything under the sun, which is everywhere---period---they have nothing to do with anything because they are nothing---forever, which is clearly an eternal condition of the dead, not present life no matter how you want to twist it.

 

[Der Alte]

Talk about out of context
What you say is not at all what the text says. It clearly states the dead no nothing, they have nothing with anything under the sun, which is everywhere---period---they have nothing to do with anything because they are nothing---forever, which is clearly an eternal condition of the dead, not present life no matter how you want to twist it.

The author of Eccles 9:5 is not talking about man's eternal fate. This same author did not know where a man's spirit goes when he dies.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? ​

I quoted the complete passage to show the context. You have quoted bits and pieces to make the passage say what you want it to.
First there is no sun in paradise.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.​

So "under the sun" in Eccles. refers to what happens in this lifetime. You said,

"the dead no nothing, they have nothing with anything under the sun, which is everywhere---period---they have nothing to do with anything because they are nothing---forever, which is clearly an eternal condition of the dead, not present life no matter how you want to twist it." ​

This passage does not distinguish between the righteous and unrighteous dead.
Verse 3, two vss, before vs. 5 refers to "things that are done under the sun." Verse 6, immediately after vs. 5 refers to "any thing that is done under the sun." If the understanding that some have is true then even the righteous do not have any reward after death, vs. reads 5 "but the dead ...neither have they any more a reward."

Ecclesiastes 9:3-11
(3) This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
(4) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
(7) Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
(8) Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
(9) Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
(11) I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
. . .
(9) This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me:​

Verse 3, two vss, before vs. 5 refers to "things that are done under the sun." Verse 6, immediately after vs. 5 refers to "any thing that is done under the sun." If the understanding that some have is true then even the righteous do not have any reward after death, vs. reads 5 "but the dead ...neither have they any more a reward."
Verse 5 is best understood as "but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.[under the sun]"