How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[Tinyarch]

The curse started at the fall and not before.

For all of bling's misstatements concerning the lack of perfection of the original Adam at his creation - I do not believe that he believes that man was cursed from creation. I'm pretty sure that he would agree with what I have just said about the fall and that any further reading into his comment about lack of perfection at the creation is unwarranted.

I believe the sin nature is passed on to all of Adam's descendants because of Adam's original transgression against God.

That nature includes the inability to not sin due to that inherent sin nature.

There is much debate about whether those who have never "actually sinned" - namely babies - are bound for Hell.

I personally don't believe that they are.

I do, however, believe in "total depravity" in as much as sin has permeated every single facet of our being because of the fall and the curse which followed.

Psalm 139:13 says, "For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb."

That tells me that God created us with the sin nature which we all posses from birth (or before).

Yet, bling explicitly said that he does not believe in original sin. There is, therefore, no specific moment where sin took place and brought God's curse. Sin, in bling's comment, is an evolution of mankind's construct over time.

Grace would, in that situation, not be needed at all. We could simply deconstruct what constitutes as sin at our own convenience.

Not believing in original sin creates a myriad of theological problems.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You miss the point of the question.

If... there is no original sin, then ......

No problem.
(there is no original sin; that was thought up outside of YHWH'S WORD and introduced from pagan ways. (i.e. it is heresy, I guess) )
As far as all the 'deductions' after that... no worries.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Yet, bling explicitly said that he does not believe in original sin...................................... Not believing in original sin creates a myriad of theological problems.

I didn't read where bling said that he did not believe in original sin at least in some way.

I though that he just didn't believe that men were born with judgment due them from God - only after actual sin would a man be guilty of sin and be under full on judgement.

That's the trouble with these threads. One gets a little mixed up on who said what - especially when a half dozen or so posters are going at it.

P.S.
I do see where he said the following to you in a post. I think that he was beating a straw man at the time since I don't think that you believe that an individual can never refuse to sin. At least I hope you don't.

We could “choose” not to do one sin at one very specific time by really going out of our way to do something else, but a mature adult cannot chose not to sin sometime, so all will sin. This makes sin our responsibility, since we could have kept from committing a particular sin at a particular time. If you say: “We cannot keep from committing any sin at a particular time”, than you are making our sins God’s fault, since He did not make us with the ability to keep from sinning and any sin is not really our fault, but do you blame Adam and Eve?

I'm not taking the position of any particular person here on any particular point. I'm just trying to sort out who believes what.

My own positions are my own however and I'll defend them as need be.

Not believing in original sin creates a myriad of theological problems.

I believe you've got that right for sure.

No corporate sin in the old Adam = no corporate righteousness in the second or last Adam. Big problems if that's the case.

 

[Tinyarch]

No problem.
(there is no original sin; that was thought up outside of YHWH'S WORD and introduced from pagan ways. (i.e. it is heresy, I guess) )
As far as all the 'deductions' after that... no worries.

So, when Adam sinned, that wasn't original? Humans had sinned before Adam?

I cannot see how saying Adam and Eve brought sin into humanity is a heresy.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, when Adam sinned, that wasn't original? Humans had sinned before Adam?

I cannot see how saying Adam and Eve brought sin into humanity is a heresy.

What Adam and Havah (Eve) did isn't in question here.
Test everything by SCRIPTURE and in prayer always.
The story, doctrine, purposes of doctrine, history, and encumbrances that come with the theory of original sin is what came later, not in nor from YHWH.

 

[Tinyarch]

What Adam and Havah (Eve) did isn't in question here.
Test everything by SCRIPTURE and in prayer always.
The story, doctrine, purposes of doctrine, history, and encumbrances that come with the theory of original sin is what came later, not in nor from YHWH.

Yes, what Adam and Eve did is in question here when you deny that it originally happened. That's what original sin is about. It states that Adam and Eve were the first to sin and through their original act, all humanity is cursed. It is what Romans 5 is referring to.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, what Adam and Eve did is in question here when you deny that it originally happened.

No one denied what Adam and Havah did. YOU added the theory along with all the gobbletygook that goes with the theory (whether you realize it or not) of "original sin").
Stop that.
Just accept that Adam sinned.
Period.

 

[bling]

You are saying that God failed to create perfectly. He could only make it to the "very good" stage.

Your claim is perplexing to me. Please explain.

You have to understand mans and God’s objective in all this since like it should be in any organization the objective drives the conclusion:

1. God is not trying to “get” something from man (man cannot “provide” anything for God), but God as pure unselfish charity is trying to give the greatest most powerful gifts possible to man. These gifts will enable man to be like God himself in that they will have Godly type Love (God is Love).
   
   
2. Godly Love compels God to do all He does, so Love (which is God Himself) is the greatest force in all universes.
   
   
3. There are things that just cannot be done even by God and one thing God cannot do is program a person to have Godly type Love (an instinctive love) since that love would be a robotic type love. God just cannot make a person who has always existed or He could make more Christs.
   
   
4. God cannot force Godly type Love on a being, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun.
   
   
5. This “Love” has to be the result of a “free will” choice with likely alternatives (those alternatives for man are “the perceived pleasures of sin for a season”).
   
   
6. Man not ever sinning is not man’s objective, since obtaining and growing this Godly type Love is man’s objective (along with this Love God throws in heaven, eternal life, and a wonderful close relationship to sweeten the offer) we become like God Himself.
   

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).



What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?


Again there are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

That is an introduction to a huge topic.


Adam and Eve’s first sin is not described in scripture as a “fall” and is a transition.

You did not “inherit” anything bad from Adam and Eve, your “nature” prior to your first sin is the same as Adam/Eve.

Adam and Eve did obtain additional “knowledge” that was passed down to all of us in the form of a conscience, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?

Here is the question:

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to be obedient to all God’s rules forever (that is the garden before sin situation) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your humbly accepting God’s charity (that is where you are today)?

Man just cannot by man’s own power continue forever in obedience and that is what our best all human representatives (Adam and Eve) showed us early on in their story.

Yes, lots of things were “cursed” by God to provide limited resources, pain, death, and hardship, but these things also helped humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

God made Adam and Eve as He describes “very good” but that is not perfect. Christ was perfect but Christ was not a created being and always had Godly type Love. We on the other hand have to obtain Godly type Love, but remember we just cannot be created with this Love.

God is doing all He can to help us choose His Love over selfish love, but it has to be a real choice (no gun to the head).

 

[bling]

Ezekiel 28:15-17 "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you."

He made Lucifer perfect and yet he sinned. I don't see where in the scripture anyone could get that His original creation of man was not also perfect.

Except perhaps in the fact that they lacked the knowledge of good and evil.

But even with that - they lacked the knowledge of all things to begin with.

What stages did God go through in the creation of a "perfect Lucifer"?
the word for perfect has many definitions and can mean mature, fully grown, complete, made one from being apart, so does this "perfect" mean the same as perfect when used to describe Christ?

 

[bling]

You miss the point of the question.

If, as bling states, there is no original sin, then God's curse on mankind happened at creation and God created imperfectly. God is, therefore, flawed if He is responsible for our sin, as bling suggests.

Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin, what I am talking about is the doctrine of "Original Sin".
I never suggested God is responsible for Adam and Eve sinning?

 

[bling]

Yes, what Adam and Eve did is in question here when you deny that it originally happened. That's what original sin is about. It states that Adam and Eve were the first to sin and through their original act, all humanity is cursed. It is what Romans 5 is referring to.

Is death in itself bad?
Can curses help us in our fulfilling our earthly objective?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

• God is not trying to “get” something from man (man cannot “provide” anything for God)

YHWH says HE desires obedience and not sacrifice, or more than sacrifice.
ALSO WILLINGNESS. Everyone who seeks YHWH must believe that HE EXISTS, and that HE REWARDS everyone

WHO WILLINGLY SEEKS HIM.

YHWH says without FAITH it is impossible to please YHWH.
FAITH is an active trusting relying on HIM, not sit and think "I believe.... I believe..... I believe...... I believe..... " as if the mind could produce faith.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Can curses help us in our fulfilling our earthly objective?

Simplest answer no.
But YHWH turns EVERYTHING, works ALL THINGS (good and bad) out - orchestrates everything together for good for those who love HIM and are called according to HIS PURPOSE.

Why do you have an earthly objective ? What is it ?

 

[EmSw]

Everything that comes from the potter's shop is under a curse.

Say what? The condition of the vessel depends on the actions of the vessel. Your lack of knowing what the Bible says is very concerning. You should know what the Bible says before opening your mouth. Tell us what is it about Jeremiah 18 that you do not understand?

Jeremiah 18
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!
7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,
8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,
10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Do you not see that those who turn from evil will be vessels of honor, and those who do evil will be vessels of dishonor?

Lemonade, read the sign, lemonade! What's wrong with these people?

It's only by the grace of God's mercy that any are saved from a well deserved Hell.
He "made" us under a curse. That curse includes inability to keep from sinning.

I don't particularly like the way the fact that I was born under a curse. I may even agree with you that it doesn't seem fair that I was.

But God's thoughts and God's ways are not my thoughts and ways.

Say what? God DID NOT make us a curse! Now you are impugning the Creator! What is it with these man-made doctrines?

Get to know Deuteronomy 11:26-29 before you open your mouth.
Get to know Deuteronomy 27:1-1-26 before you pretend to know God's ways.

The inability to keep from sinning is your evil heart. If you do not cast away all your transgressions, you will always have an evil heart.

Numbers 23:8
How shall I curse whom God has not cursed? And how shall I denounce whom the Lord has not denounced?

Read this! God did not make them under a curse! Curses come from sin and evil, not that sin and evil come from curses!

Our task is to believe what God says whether we fully understand it (or like it) or not.

You do not believe what God says. Read and understand Deuteronomy 27!

We are to build our "theology" in the exact opposite of the way Adam did. He wouldn't believe what God said until he fully understood it.

We are to believe God in spite of not fully understanding it (or seeing how it's fair).

Quit building your theology and start obeying God's word. Again, read Deuteronomy 27 to see what brings you under God's curse.

 

[Tinyarch]

Is death in itself bad?
Can curses help us in our fulfilling our earthly objective?

Why do you deny that Adam and Eve's sin was the original sin?

 

[EmSw]

Yes, what Adam and Eve did is in question here when you deny that it originally happened. That's what original sin is about. It states that Adam and Eve were the first to sin and through their original act, all humanity is cursed. It is what Romans 5 is referring to.

Many on here keep eating sour grapes, and want everyone else to gobble them up.

Do they not believe Ezekiel 18?

14 “If, however, he begets a son who sees all the sins which his father has done, and considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains, nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone, nor withheld a pledge, nor robbed by violence, but has given his bread to the hungry and covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor and not received usury or increase,
but has executed My judgments and walked in My statutes—he shall not die for the iniquity of his father; he shall surely live!

19 Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’

Many keep saying why should the son not bear the guilt of the father? They can't believe and understand what God says. God says, he shall NOT die for the iniquity of his father!

Ezekiel single-handedly strikes down the 'original sin' theory. If you believe man is cursed, is guilty, and dies because of Adam's sin, you show you had rather believe man's theory rather than God's Holy Word!!!

 

[Tinyarch]

Many on here keep eating sour grapes, and want everyone else to gobble them up.

Do they not believe Ezekiel 18?

14 “If, however, he begets a son who sees all the sins which his father has done, and considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains, nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone, nor withheld a pledge, nor robbed by violence, but has given his bread to the hungry and covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor and not received usury or increase,
but has executed My judgments and walked in My statutes—he shall not die for the iniquity of his father; he shall surely live!

19 Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’

Many keep saying why should the son not bear the guilt of the father? They can't believe and understand what God says. God says, he shall NOT die for the iniquity of his father!

Ezekiel single-handedly strikes down the 'original sin' theory. If you believe man is cursed, is guilty, and dies because of Adam's sin, you show you had rather believe man's theory rather than God's Holy Word!!!

Really? Cause Ezekiel is speaking about what the Babylonians were going to do to Judah.
I'm not sure how you jump to such a conclusion unless you just ignore Ezekiel's audience.
Are you sure the Holy Spirit gave you that one, cause it seems unlikely.
Ezekiel says nothing about original sin. Sorry, you're wrong.

 

[EmSw]

Really? Cause Ezekiel is speaking about what the Babylonians were going to do to Judah.
I'm not sure how you jump to such a conclusion unless you just ignore Ezekiel's audience.
Are you sure the Holy Spirit gave you that one, cause it seems unlikely.
Ezekiel says nothing about original sin. Sorry, you're wrong.

Keep eating your sour grapes. Babylon isn't even mentioned in Ezekiel 18. Show us where Babylon was going to do something to Judah in chapter 18. Are you this desperate to confirm your man-made doctrine?

 

[Tinyarch]

Keep eating your sour grapes. Babylon isn't even mentioned in Ezekiel 18. Show us where Babylon was going to do something to Judah in chapter 18. Are you this desperate to confirm your man-made doctrine?

The book was written from the shores of the Euphrates River in Babylon as Judah was under seige. The whole book is in reference to God's anger at Judah and how he was going to spew them out of the land.
Honestly, whatever spirit you are listening to, I have to question how holy it is. God the Holy Spirit would never butcher the Bible like you just did.

 

[EmSw]

The book was written from the shores of the Euphrates River in Babylon as Judah was under seige. The whole book is in reference to God's anger at Judah and how he was going to spew them out of the land.
Honestly, whatever spirit you are listening to, I have to question how holy it is. God the Holy Spirit would never butcher the Bible like you just did.

Why don't you actually read chapter 18? You don't even know what it says.

In the meantime, enjoy your sour grapes.