How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[bottomofsandal]

Is the grace of God irresistible as the "I" in TULIP proclaims?

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?

 

[alexandriaisburning]

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?

God's desire that they should receive this grace.

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?

God's desire that they should not receive this grace.

 

[bottomofsandal]

God's desire that they should receive this grace.



God's desire that they should not receive this grace.

I am not instigating an argument, rather a constructive dialogue of understanding.


Some might feel compelled to say this withholding of grace is not fair.
Did God simply never offer the grace of God to the non-elect ?
Or was the grace of God offered to all men and some refused grace?


Also, is man's freewill powerful enough that he is able to resist God?
Paul when he was Saul was unable to resist God. God was pretty persuasive.

 

[Greg J.]

What alexandriaisburning said is the bottom line. How God decides is one of those things that He doesn't even try to explain.

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Romans 9:18, 1984 NIV)

As for fairness, no one can grasp the truth of that without first understanding and believing that we all deserve eternal punishment. If God saved nobody, he would not have done anything unfair.

Did God simply never offer the grace of God to the non-elect ?

God has given everybody who ever lived the chance to believe that they have done evil and that they cannot do anything to get rid of that fact, and thus to hope, then believe and be confident in God's mercy. Evidence for these things is available to everybody. The difficulty these days in seeing it clearly is because we are the product of millenia of sinning.

Or was the grace of God offered to all men and some refused grace?

This is basically the case, except that it should be explained more like: because of God's grace, he sent his son to die for us, and as a result he has has forgiven everyone their sins. That's the Good News. Those who believe that and as a result yield to God's lordship are those that end up receiving the benefit of God's grace.

However, the grace you are talking about may be how is it that some received grace so that they would believe, and that's what my 2nd sentence in this post is about. However, looking at this facet makes it is easier to see the influence of how a person was brought up and their culture. The idea that God chose the elect and now everything goes along on cruise control is false. Scripture is blaringly clear that everyone has the choice. It's one of the reasons Christians need to be telling people the Good News, as we have been commanded.

Man's freewill is more than powerful enough to resist God's will. Saul had the choice to say to Jesus: go away Satan, because you are a liar. He would have done this if he was confident in his own righteousness a lot more than he was. Fortunately God appearing to someone is a pretty powerful testimony that he is God. His glory emanates from himself and is not like anything Satan can manufacture (but it can be hard or impossible to tell if you haven't yet experienced the authentic thing, and even then Satan can afterward work toward making you doubt and question it).

 

[sdowney717]

Saul could not resist any longer the Lord and becomes Paul.
Jonah flees from God. Jonah gets swallowed by that fish and eventually declares salvation belongs to the Lord and goes to Nineveh as originally commanded.
God always wins for His gifts and His calling are irrevocable, or without repentance, meaning God does not change His mind and you can not change His mind either.

God does whatever He wants. He is also patient and kind to His beloved elect not wishing any of them to perish but all of them to come to repentance.
But people can resist for a time God's goading. But if your one that God calls according to His purposes, then you will be conformed to the image of Christ. God also changes your heart.

Acts 26:14
And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

 

[bottomofsandal]

However, the grace you are talking about may be how is it that some received grace so that they would believe, and that's what my 2nd sentence in this post is about. However, looking at this facet makes it is easier to see the influence of how a person was brought up and their culture. The idea that God chose the elect and now everything goes along on cruise control is false. Scripture is blaringly clear that everyone has the choice. It's one of the reasons Christians need to be telling people the Good News, as we have been commanded.

Oftentimes I hear people qualify/quantify the operations of grace. Terms like effectual grace, common grace, or prevenient grace are used by various faith groups. Prevenient grace is given as an antecedent to the grace of God. Prevenient grace serves as an enabler to saving grace, and is said by some to shift the decision power to man. Yes, man must believe, choose, etc, but can God's grace really fail? Is the burden on man to somehow appropriate grace or will God's grace accomplish it's purpose?

Why does God's grace only appear to work sometimes on some of the people?

 

[bottomofsandal]

Saul could not resist any longer the Lord and becomes Paul.
Jonah flees from God. Jonah gets swallowed by that fish and eventually declares salvation belongs to the Lord and goes to Nineveh as originally commanded.
God always wins for His gifts and His calling are irrevocable, or without repentance, meaning God does not change His mind and you can not change His mind either.

God does whatever He wants. He is also patient and kind to His beloved elect not wishing any of them to perish but all of them to come to repentance.
But people can resist for a time God's goading. But if your one that God calls according to His purposes, then you will be conformed to the image of Christ. God also changes your heart.

Acts 26:14
And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

Understood. However, many believers will exaggerate their contribution in their salvation. Many feel they cooperated with God by the power of God's grace working alongside of God, rather than just say God did a work in the sinner by His Spirit, power, and grace. Again, some people see God's grace as an enabler that allowed the person to choose. To some this distinction may not matter, but it is a distinction with a difference. God's grace saves people 100%, not 99% and 1% or any combination.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

As for fairness, no one can grasp the truth of that without first understanding and believing that we all deserve eternal punishment. If God saved nobody, he would not have done anything unfair.

God would be equally "fair" in saving everyone. Therefore, in this paradigm, punishment is not predicated on being sinful or "deserving" it, but simply upon the basis that God eternally desires nothing other than to punish them.

The retrobation of humans must therefore be understood as a product of divine caprice.

God has given everybody who ever lived the chance to believe that they have done evil and that they cannot do anything to get rid of that fact, and thus to hope, then believe and be confident in God's mercy.

If punishment is based on God's desire, then having a "chance" to believe is an illusion. As God's desire for their reprobation cannot be mitigated by anything that they might do, it is a falsehood to suggest that "chance" has any part in the discussion.

 

[EmSw]

God would be equally "fair" in saving everyone. Therefore, in this paradigm, punishment is not predicated on being sinful or "deserving" it, but simply upon the basis that God eternally desires nothing other than to punish them.

The retrobation of humans must therefore be understood as a product of divine caprice.

If punishment is based on God's desire, then having a "chance" to believe is an illusion. As God's desire for their reprobation cannot be mitigated by anything that they might do, it is a falsehood to suggest that "chance" has any part in the discussion.

What kind of god do you believe in? He creates us just so he can punish us? What a warped view of God.

Punishment is totally based upon our actions.

Sorry AIB, this should be said to Greg J.

 

[OzSpen]

God's desire that they should not receive this grace.

How does that harmonise or contradict 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV), 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance'?

 

[sdowney717]

How does that harmonise or contradict 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV), 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance'?

That depends on who is Peter's audience, to whom is Peter writing?
'he is patient with you', 'you' is the beloved, who are elect according to foreknowledge that Peter wrote about in 1 Peter 1.

Why would God be patiently waiting for those whom He knows will never repent, that is your the 'all' interpretation idea.
That describes the action of a God who is less than the Lord Almighty.

No, this verse fits in more with Paul's Romans 8 and 9 teaching of God predestinating those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ.
2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Peter would not be including all the world into the 'us' to whom he has written these 2 letters. His letters were written to the beloved elect, those whom God foreknew would repent, so then this includes those who are reading his letter who will believe at a future date, and those who believe now.

2 Peter 3New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Promise Is Not Slack
3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle

2 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting the Faithful
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

It is for the elect alone that Paul labors that they also will be saved, same ideas Peter teaches in that verse, Paul also teaches that only the elect will be enabled to repent and believe, it is for them that God is longsuffering, not willing that any of them perish, and they will not.

2 Timothy 2:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.

 

[bottomofsandal]

God would be equally "fair" in saving everyone. Therefore, in this paradigm, punishment is not predicated on being sinful or "deserving" it, but simply upon the basis that God eternally desires nothing other than to punish them.

The retrobation of humans must therefore be understood as a product of divine caprice.



If punishment is based on God's desire, then having a "chance" to believe is an illusion. As God's desire for their reprobation cannot be mitigated by anything that they might do, it is a falsehood to suggest that "chance" has any part in the discussion.

IDK, maybe he means God is required to punish sin due to His Divine justice, but God's mercy does not require salvation of all men?

 

[Greg J.]

God would be equally "fair" in saving everyone. Therefore, in this paradigm, punishment is not predicated on being sinful or "deserving" it, but simply upon the basis that God eternally desires nothing other than to punish them.

The retrobation of humans must therefore be understood as a product of divine caprice.

Actually, there is only one fair thing for God to do, and that is for God to eternally punish us all.

What you are saying is that instead of punishing all the mass murderers, to be fair, if God chose to set one free, he would be morally obligated to set them all free. But there is no moral basis for that idea when it is God who is the omniscient judge.

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (Romans 9:18-21, 1984 NIV)

If punishment is based on God's desire, then having a "chance" to believe is an illusion. As God's desire for their reprobation cannot be mitigated by anything that they might do, it is a falsehood to suggest that "chance" has any part in the discussion.

Punishment is not based on God's desire, it is based on his grace and justice. Every person who has a sinful nature on Judgment Day will be punished. No exceptions.

Jesus died so that everyone who ever lived could choose to yield to God's lordship. Without his death, no one could make that choice. It would have been moral for God not to send his son to earth, but it was not immoral for him to do so. He chose the latter because he desired to save us all so much that he was even willing to die to do so. As a result, the sins of everyone who have ever lived have been forgiven by God—but that is a one-sided action (God's side, not a person's side).

Even though we are forgiven, God is not willing to override anyone's will (and never does). However it is still moral for him to command those that knew him to tell everyone about what he had done and the option they have. That he knew ahead of time what people would choose is irrelevant to the fact that people had (and still have) a choice.

Here we see a person's salvation is dependent upon another human and his own response to it:

But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. ... But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself.” (Ezekiel 3:19,21, 1984 NIV)

We are shown that it is humans who cause the condemnation of a person in John 3:18, Romans 2:1, and Romans 14:22. We are born without righteousness before God and stand condemned due to the evil nature of our parents and ancestors.

Sorry AIB, this should be said to Greg J.

I don't understand what you are referring to, so don't understand what you mean.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Here we see a person's salvation is dependent upon another human and his own response to it:

But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. ... But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself.” (Ezekiel 3:19,21, 1984 NIV)

Where is grace in this and has it been resisted?

 

[Greg J.]

Where is grace in this and has it been resisted?

If one just looks at humans, there is no way for anyone to be saved, because no human action can get rid of sinful nature. God was under no obligation to send his son to die to pay for our sins, but because of his love and grace, he did so anyway.

But humans have blinded each other to that fact, so that they are not able to believe in Jesus. So it is also God's grace when he (because he is under no obligation to do so) grants someone the faith to believe the truth about Jesus and his sacrifice for our sins.

Speaking specifically about entering the kingdom of God/heaven,

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26, 1984 NIV)

So people are generally not saved if (1) they do not hear the good news, or (2) they hear the good news and do not believe. The idea that God should grant everyone grace to believe is only possible by objectifying this thing called "grace" instead of understanding its definition.

 

[bottomofsandal]

If one just looks at humans, there is no way for anyone to be saved, because no human action can get rid of sinful nature. God was under no obligation to send his son to die to pay for our sins, but because of his love and grace, he did so anyway.

But humans have blinded each other to that fact, so that they are not able to believe in Jesus. So it is also God's grace when he (because he is under no obligation to do so) grants someone the faith to believe the truth about Jesus and his sacrifice for our sins.

Speaking specifically about entering the kingdom of God/heaven,

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26, 1984 NIV)

So people are generally not saved if (1) they do not hear the good news, or (2) they hear the good news and do not believe. The idea that God should grant everyone grace to believe is only possible by objectifying this thing called "grace" instead of understanding its definition.

I understand what you are saying, and agree with what you are saying.

I was seeking clarification on how the passage from Ezekiel 3 fit in with grace or resisting grace?

 

[Greg J.]

I was just giving Scriptural support for the sentence before it:

Even though we are forgiven, God is not willing to override anyone's will (and never does). However it is still moral for him to command those that knew him to tell everyone about what he had done and the option they have.

The passage shows God commanding Ezekiel to enlighten another person, and that the other person's salvation can be dependent upon what Ezekiel does.

 

[bottomofsandal]

I was just giving Scriptural support for the sentence before it:

The passage shows God commanding Ezekiel to enlighten another person, and that the other person's salvation can be dependent upon what Ezekiel does.

Thank you !

 

[alexandriaisburning]

IDK, maybe he means God is required to punish sin due to His Divine justice, but God's mercy does not require salvation of all men?

That would be a most illogical position to hold

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Actually, there is only one fair thing for God to do, and that is for God to eternally punish us all.

"Fairness" would be resolved in whatsoever God chooses to do. So if God damns all of humanity on a whim, or turns a blind eye to the whole of human sinfulness, God would be equally just and the result would be equally "fair". God is not bound to any standards of conduct, so in whatever God might decide to do, God is entirely justified in doing so.

What you are saying is that instead of punishing all the mass murderers, to be fair, if God chose to set one free, he would be morally obligated to set them all free. But there is no moral basis for that idea when it is God who is the omniscient judge.

I never suggested that God is morally obligated to behave in any particular way, and cursory consideration of the freedom of God's own self-existence would reveal that God is certainly not morally obligated to do anything. I'm not really sure what logic you are attempting to follow that has led you to these conclusions.

Punishment is not based on God's desire, it is based on his grace and justice.

Saying that God's punishment of sin is based on God's "grace" and "justice" is precisely the same as saying that it is based on God's desire. As there is no standard external to the eternal self-existence of God that can obligate God to behave in any particular way, any possible actions that God might do are the very definition of "graceful" and "just". Therefore, since God is not compelled to act in any particular way toward human sinfulness, the only possible motivation for God's punishment of sin CAN ONLY BE divine desire. There is simply no other possible conclusion that does not violate the freedom of God's eternal self-existence.