How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

bling

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From all we know Lucifer was perfect from his creation. He went through no stages to achieve that status.

He remained so until iniquity was found in him.
We do not know much about the creation and development of Lucifer.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Why not tell God He is a liar? Tell Him no one will humble themselves to receive grace.
After reading over 15 pages in threads/conversations going nowhere, just round and round in circles, is there something hard to understand when other people in line with SCRIPTURE in their comments or posts make simple statements in english ? A few have tried to understand, but get nowhere and finally give up because their posted questions are not answered.

Do you honestly not realize that ?
 
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bling

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Yes, God's Love would have compelled God to make beings that could become like He is, in that they would have Godly type Love, so for the sake of those that would accept His Love He made them, since He could make them. God is totally unselfish and just as we are to be compelled by godly type Love, God is our example.
 
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EmSw

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Did you suffer so much, you cannot understand other people when they make simple statements in english ?

Do you honestly not realize, that to provoke anyone else to sin is sin coming from yourself, and is wrong ?

And yet, you provoke me.

Do you also deny God gives grace to the humble?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And yet, you provoke me.

Do you also deny God gives grace to the humble?
Provoke?
No. Like the others who care, just wonder why you keep on without answering. Why do you respond the way you do ?
It is not necessarily wrong, but it just goes in circles without resolution until people give up trying to have a conversation with you.
 
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Marvin Knox

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We do not know much about the creation and development of Lucifer.
Yes. I know. That's what I said.

Then why did you ask me the following?:scratch:
What stages did God go through in the creation of a "perfect Lucifer"?
My post was an answer to that. That is why I said quite correctly that:
From all we know Lucifer was perfect from his creation. He went through no stages to achieve that status. He remained so until iniquity was found in him.

Ezekiel 28:15 "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you."

We can drop that now though.

Your point seems to be that man was not created perfect. You seem to say that he needed to be perfected through the sin/salvation process.

If you are saying that he was not perfect because he lacked the knowledge of good and evil - then I believe that that is wrong.

Lots of things in God's creation lack knowledge including the elect angels. They desire earnestly to understand the things concerning salvation. That doesn't make them imperfect.

Likewise - I don't believe that we as created beings will ever know "everything" that God knows. We will instead spend eternity just scratching the surface of His magnificent infinite knowledge.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Those verses have absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of original sin.
You said God made us a curse. You have absolutely gone off course.
You said God made us a curse. You have absolutely gone off course.
You said God made us a curse. You have absolutely gone off course.
You said God made us a curse. You have absolutely gone off course.
Thank you for your brotherly love. You will be rewarded for your kindness.
Jesus was absolutely correct - you will know them by their fruit.
I'd call you childish. But even that would be an overstatement.

From what it appears you are not yet even a babe in Christ - having never accepted Him as your Savior and been born again.
 
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Tinyarch

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I'd call you childish. But even that would be an overstatement.

From what it appears you are not yet even a babe in Christ - having never accepted Him as your Savior and been born again.
There is a spirit about him. It just doesn't seem to be holy.
 
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bling

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Ezekiel 28:15 "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you."

Specifically: “perfect” like Christ. Lucifer was “perfect” but like I said “perfect” has lots of meanings and this “perfect” does not suggest “perfect” like Christ is perfect, the NIV uses “Blameless” Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. And in the context “blameless” seems to be a better fit, but elders are to be “blameless” and that does not mean perfect.

Your point seems to be that man was not created perfect. You seem to say that he needed to be perfected through the sin/salvation process.

I do not see where we ever become “perfect” like Christ is “perfect”.

If you are saying that he was not perfect because he lacked the knowledge of good and evil - then I believe that that is wrong.

“NO” I did not suggest or say that. If you read my post you will see that I am talking about “Godly type Love” which Adam and Eve could not be created with. Adam and Eve did have instinctive type love (some of their “love” would be like animal love for their offspring). Instinctive type love is virtually robotic and not like Godly type love.

Lots of things in God's creation lack knowledge including the elect angels. They desire earnestly to understand the things concerning salvation. That doesn't make them imperfect.

Likewise - I don't believe that we as created beings will ever know "everything" that God knows. We will instead spend eternity just scratching the surface of His magnificent infinite knowledge.

Fine, but that is not what I am talking about.
 
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EmSw

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Provoke?
No. Like the others who care, just wonder why you keep on without answering. Why do you respond the way you do ?
It is not necessarily wrong, but it just goes in circles without resolution until people give up trying to have a conversation with you.

What have I not answered? Have I called others fools, or said they weren't saved?

Did you not read Ezekiel 18 concerning 'original sin'? Others dare not touch it, for it shreds that man-made theory.

Do you suggest I answer another way without referencing the Bible. If so, speak up.
 
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EmSw

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I'd call you childish. But even that would be an overstatement.

From what it appears you are not yet even a babe in Christ - having never accepted Him as your Savior and been born again.

You have yet to provide passages which say God made man a curse. You are so full of man-made theories.
 
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Marvin Knox

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.............If you read my post you will see that I am talking about “Godly type Love” which Adam and Eve could not be created with. Adam and Eve did have instinctive type love (some of their “love” would be like animal love for their offspring). Instinctive type love is virtually robotic and not like Godly type love.
OK here we go again "Godly type love" - a blast from the past.

No one agreed with back then and no one even understood what you were talking about if I remember correctly.
Fine, but that is not what I am talking about.
Since I admittedly don't know what you are talking about - I'll just leave you here to carry on with the other posters.:)
 
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Marvin Knox

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You have yet to provide passages which say God made man a curse. You are so full of man-made theories.
One time just for the record - I haven't provided passages which say "God made man a curse" simply because I have never said that and I don't believe there is a passage that says that either.

I don't even know what that would mean let alone say it.:scratch:

I'll try hard not to engage you any more here. But I would like you to provide the quote from one of my posts (for others as well as me) that said that or stop saying that I did.
 
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EmSw

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One time just for the record - I haven't provided passages which say "God made man a curse" simply because I have never said that and I don't believe there is a passage that says that either.

From post #1512 -

Tinyarch said this -
God cursed us when He made us?

You, Marvin replied -
Yes. Not the original Adam but everyone after him.

I don't even know what that would mean let alone say it.:scratch:

When you are all over the place, you will not remember what you said.

I'll try hard not to engage you any more here. But I would like you to provide the quote from one of my posts (for others as well as me) that said that or stop saying that I did.

Done! Post #1512.
 
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Marvin Knox

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From post #1512 -
Tinyarch said this -
God cursed us when He made us?
You, Marvin replied -
Yes. Not the original Adam but everyone after him.
When you are all over the place, you will not remember what you said.
Done! Post #1512.
OK.

You misstated my statements that "God cursed us when He made us" and "man was made under a curse" as "God made us a curse".

An easy enough mistake I suppose. But obviously not the same thing.

Explanation accepted.

But there should be no debate that God made us under a curse.

Genesis 3:16-19, “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

Romans 8:20-22 "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."

We are cursed among other things to be born spiritually dead with spiritual consequences.

We are cursed among other things to die physically with physical consequences.

It is the lot visited on all of fallen mankind through the curse.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Why not tell God He is a liar? Tell Him no one will humble themselves to receive grace.

Proverbs 3:34
Surely He scorns the scornful, but gives grace to the humble.

James 4:6
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

Go ahead, tell God He is a liar to His face. Who are you to talk back to God and say His word is a lie?


Where to begin...

What do any of these verses have to do with salvation?

Your pov seems to intimate that a man prepares himself, by his power to deserve grace.

This is contrary to the definition of grace and raises the question of how grace is resisted.

It sounds like man is dispensing grace to himself after he humbles himself...is this God's grace?


This means proud men can never receive grace because they are unable to humble themselves?

We must then conclude it is only possible for self-humbling men to be saved and no one else?

By extension, since carnal man can humble himself, what else is he able to perform in his flesh?
 
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EmSw

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Where to begin...

What do any of these verses have to do with salvation?

Your pov seems to intimate that a man prepares himself, by his power to deserve grace.

This is contrary to the definition of grace and raises the question of how grace is resisted.

It sounds like man is dispensing grace to himself after he humbles himself...is this God's grace?


This means proud men can never receive grace because they are unable to humble themselves?

We must then conclude it is only possible for self-humbling men to be saved and no one else?

By extension, since carnal man can humble himself, what else is he able to perform in his flesh?

Why does this confound you?

Job 22:29
When men are cast down, then thou shalt say, there is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.

This is God's decree. Perhaps you think the proud will receive grace.
 
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EmSw

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OK.

You misstated my statements that "God cursed us when He made us" and "man was made under a curse" as "God made us a curse".

An easy enough mistake I suppose. But obviously not the same thing.

Explanation accepted.

But there should be no debate that God made us under a curse.

Genesis 3:16-19, “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

Romans 8:20-22 "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."

We are cursed among other things to be born spiritually dead with spiritual consequences.

We are cursed among other things to die physically with physical consequences.

It is the lot visited on all of fallen mankind through the curse.

Only two things were cursed because of Adam and Eve's sin, the serpent and the ground. Cain was cursed AFTER he killed Abel. You got to quit making this stuff up.

And no Marvin, I did not misstate you. Here is your answer to Tinyarch -

Tinyarch said this -
God cursed us when He made us?

You, Marvin replied -
Yes. Not the original Adam but everyone after him.

What's the difference of being made a curse and God cursing us when He made us?
 
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Marvin Knox

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What's the difference of being made a curse and God cursing us when He made us?
You tell me. I just don't want you to misquote me. Surely that's not too much to ask of you.

Only one man is ever said to have been "made a curse" by God and that is Jesus Christ. He is said to have become a curse "for us".

God curses many people and things in the scriptures - sometimes actually saying the word "curse" and sometimes just pronouncing the judgment.

But Christ actually "becoming" a curse for us seems to be very deliberate and pointed wording by God and I don't want to degrade it's meaning in any way. I would hope that you would feel the same way.

I did not say that about any other man as you accused me of. I have corrected you on that point so that you will not misquote me again in the future.

On the other hand - you in particular are said to be cursed because you depend on doing right to save you rather than on the finished work of Jesus Christ on your behalf.

But that is not the same thing as saying that you have been "made a curse" and I would never say that about you because that is not what the Word of God says about you.

Galatians 3:10 says about us, " For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Romans 2:14-15 "when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them"

Good luck with your non-systematic theology. I hope you will somehow find the truth in spite of it.
 
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