How can a Christian be Pro-Choice?

[brightmorningstar]

Good post underheaven, and I agree with you.

 

[brightmorningstar]

darwin12345,

Think about this-If a woman wants an abortion, what does that say? it probably says that that child would not grow up in a good environment, and may not be loved if they are not wanted-now isn't it better that that woman gets an abortion?

Ugh? The answer is no. But you seem to have gone into fantasy land. Think about it, if thats the reasoning if I get a speeding ticket it probably says I didnt want to go that slowly so remove the speeding signs from the roadside.
In both cases it depends on whether the life should be protected or the desires of the person honoured.

One needs to take responsibility for ones actions.

 

[Erose]

Well, what it boils down to is that the undeveloped fetus is not a person.

No what it boils down to is that an undeveloped baby is a human life period. To disregard this is to go against every bit of science on this subject. When you look at a person in a hospital in a vegetative state due to brain damage as not being a human life? When you destroy the life of a undeveloped baby you are killing a human life. It is as simple as that. Like I said you don't have a valid argument that makes any sense.

Just as you have no moral issues with killing a cow or a vegetable, an undeveloped fetus has no inherent rights. This makes sense, is true, and is not any more selfish than is eating. Before you go complaining that you disagree with the part about the fetus not being a person, how about you give an answer to what I've already replied to that question. [/quote]But you know what when I kill another animal or a plant I am not killing a human life am I?

Funny how something you claim is a person, can turn out to be anywhere from zero to a fraction to several people in the end, and you can't tell the difference. [/quote]I don't have to claim a human being is a person or not to defend my point. Human life is human life no matter where it is at in its development or condition.

 

[Erose]

True that is a very bad thing when it happens, and we would do well to ensure all women have a choice.

Freedom begins with protecting a human being's right to life.

The unborn have all the rights they could ever ask for -- its only after they are born that they don't get all the rights they ask for.

I don't know where you are getting this. What if someone else had the authority to determine whether or not you are a cancer or tummer that needs to be destroyed or a human being? What kind of rights would you have then?

 

[underheaven]

Shall we go into the the homes of drunks and abusers and kill the children because according to you, those children won't grow up in a good environment anyway? Who shall decide what is and isn't a good environment for a child? Shall Democrats decide that a Republican home is bad? Should a Christian group decide for athiests? Should an economic level be the deciding factor? Shall an intelligence level? Should a health requirement be met? Should we let weight be a factor? Kill all the obese kids since they wouldn't have led as good a life as their skinnier counterparts. The doctor that delivered our baby asked if we wanted to get a test done at 14 weeks to test for Down Syndrome so that we could "terminate the pregnancy" before the 20 week deadline.

That argument (that I have seen many times before your presenting of it) is sick and twisted.


In Christ, GB

No but you could reach out to someone before they get that desperate.
What was that about love your neighbour etc? .Someone said that a long time
ago,but I have feeling that it is forgotten.
Has it never ever occurred to you that you need to take another
angle on this,for example why do you think Jesus was so 'easy' on
'the least of them',and so hard on the 'righteous'.
Could it be that He saw the broken hearted created by a strident
selfish society,and that these were in fact the victims ,the more
sensitive,who were pushed aside to keep it working for 'the Righteous' ?
There are some who are good ,very, who fall. Do not mistake those,
for those who are determined to make trouble.

 

[underheaven]

Think about this-If a woman wants an abortion, what does that say? it probably says that that child would not grow up in a good environment, and may not be loved if they are not wanted-now isn't it better that that woman gets an abortion?

Not good enough .You are applying liberal laws and values to
christian ones.
Better to go back and look at why this situation arose in
the first place.Does this woman have liberal values or is she
someone who finds herself in a situation she just cannot manage?
Does she have reason to fear for her life etc If she would die
having been pressured by 'christians' can they justify that ?
Women cannot be encouraged to use abortion as a 'birth control',
then that is totally immoral,because it is a planned situation.

 

[good brother]

No but you could reach out to someone before they get that desperate.
What was that about love your neighbour etc? .Someone said that a long time
ago,but I have feeling that it is forgotten.
Has it never ever occurred to you that you need to take another
angle on this,for example why do you think Jesus was so 'easy' on
'the least of them',and so hard on the 'righteous'.
Could it be that He saw the broken hearted created by a strident
selfish society,and that these were in fact the victims ,the more
sensitive,who were pushed aside to keep it working for 'the Righteous' ?
There are some who are good ,very, who fall. Do not mistake those,
for those who are determined to make trouble.

I think you missed my point. I am trying to save the life of those who would otherwise be slaughtered in the name of choice. I was trying to show darwinian that his argument was flawed stemming from flawed logic.

In Christ, GB

 

[underheaven]

I think you missed my point. I am trying to save the life of those who would otherwise be slaughtered in the name of choice. I was trying to show darwinian that his argument was flawed stemming from flawed logic.

In Christ, GB

This issue is not the same as saving the life of a living person.
The baby is part of the mother,and she is the one who has to suffer.
I take it that you are a man, because having a baby is painful,and
can cause terrible depression.You over simplfy as he does.
If you have a child,then your wife becomes pregnant again,but if she carries the baby
to term she will die.Will you tell your child that you insisted that their mother die instead
of an early fetus?
I am not getting at you ,just pointing out the difficulties involved. b

 

[Incariol]

It's cute, all these men here telling women what to do with their uterus.

 

[good brother]

It's cute, all these men here telling women what to do with their uterus.

The baby is no more part of the woman than a man's woohoo is part of her body during intercourse (I really hope that was PG rated enough). Just because the baby is inside her does not mean it's part of her, it just means that there is a baby inside her. If the child was actually her body, then that means for nine months a woman has two hearts, four arms, four legs, four eyes, a penis if she is carrying a boy, an extra vagina if she is carrying a girl, two noses, two different blood types, two brains, two mouths, four lungs, etc, etc...

In Christ, GB

 

[Erose]

It's cute, all these men here telling women what to do with their uterus.

Maybe they should have thought about the possible results of their choice, before they chose to have sex then we wouldn't have abortions nor this thread.

 

[Erose]

The baby is no more part of the woman than a man's woohoo is part of her body during intercourse (I really hope that was PG rated enough). Just because the baby is inside her does not mean it's part of her, it just means that there is a baby inside her. If the child was actually her body, then that means for nine months a woman has two hearts, four arms, four legs, four eyes, a penis if she is carrying a boy, an extra vagina if she is carrying a girl, two noses, two different blood types, two brains, two mouths, four lungs, etc, etc...

In Christ, GB

Wonderful point. I think that is the problem with those of the pro-choice side is that they never ever think of a the baby. How many babies have died over the years is more than all the wars throughout history combined!

 

[darwinian12345]

Shall we go into the the homes of drunks and abusers and kill the children because according to you, those children won't grow up in a good environment anyway? Who shall decide what is and isn't a good environment for a child? Shall Democrats decide that a Republican home is bad? Should a Christian group decide for athiests? Should an economic level be the deciding factor? Shall an intelligence level? Should a health requirement be met? Should we let weight be a factor? Kill all the obese kids since they wouldn't have led as good a life as their skinnier counterparts. The doctor that delivered our baby asked if we wanted to get a test done at 14 weeks to test for Down Syndrome so that we could "terminate the pregnancy" before the 20 week deadline.

That argument (that I have seen many times before your presenting of it) is sick and twisted.


In Christ, GB

You are misinterpreting my point, what I'm saying is that if the women knows that her child won't grow up in a good situation, and she can't care for it, then it's best she doesn't have it, and SHE is the one making that decision. Your saying it's bad that we should decide what's a good and bad life that the child will grow up in, even though it would be the future mother, yet you're trying to force that women to have that child and have them grow up in the situation that the women deemed bad. So you don't want people imposing their viewpoints of bad and good, yet that is EXACTLY what you are doing! That my friend, is the definition of hypocrisy.

 

[pgp_protector]

Wonderful point. I think that is the problem with those of the pro-choice side is that they never ever think of a the baby. How many babies have died over the years is more than all the wars throughout history combined!

And more were probably spontaneously aborted through miscarriage then ever existed.
Pregnancy Charts | Miscarriage Likelihood Calculator

 

[good brother]

You are misinterpreting my point, what I'm saying is that if the women knows that her child won't grow up in a good situation, and she can't care for it, then it's best she doesn't have it, and SHE is the one making that decision. Your saying it's bad that we should decide what's a good and bad life that the child will grow up in, even though it would be the future mother, yet you're trying to force that women to have that child and have them grow up in the situation that the women deemed bad. So you don't want people imposing their viewpoints of bad and good, yet that is EXACTLY what you are doing! That my friend, is the definition of hypocrisy.

You have decided that sentencing the child to death would be better than any life he/she could lead. You have relegated the child to the grave before he/she could pull themselves up by their boot straps and make a name and a life for himself/herself. I am no hypocrite, I am just saying that it's not my place or your place to say who will and who won't have a good enough of a life to warrant whether or not they get to lead that life.

In Christ, GB

 

[darwinian12345]

You have decided that sentencing the child to death would be better than any life he/she could lead. You have relegated the child to the grave before he/she could pull themselves up by their boot straps and make a name and a life for himself/herself. I am no hypocrite, I am just saying that it's not my place or your place to say who will and who won't have a good enough of a life to warrant whether or not they get to lead that life.

In Christ, GB

So, in a sense I agree with you. I don't think it should be mine or your choice either, it should be the future mother's; and the problem I have with your viewpoint is you are trying to make that decision, which is exactly what you say we shouldn't do. That is hypocrisy.

 

[chris4243]

No what it boils down to is that an undeveloped baby is a human life period.

A cancer is both human and alive too.

I don't have to claim a human being is a person or not to defend my point. Human life is human life no matter where it is at in its development or condition.

Funny thing though, society is made up of people, and its laws protect people. I've seen neither a society nor a religion that would defend the life of a human cancer just for being human; rather it seems what they would do is kill the human cancer to save the person plagued by it. I'm not saying a fetus is a cancer like you'd love to pretend, I'm just pointing out that you're lying since you don't really give a rat's tail about whether something is human or not despite your assurances to the contrary.

 

[chris4243]

Freedom begins with protecting a human being's right to life.

Exactly. That's what I'm trying to do, protect the human being's freedom. The human being is the mother. The fetus may be human, but it is not necessarily a "being".

I don't know where you are getting this. What if someone else had the authority to determine whether or not you are a cancer or tummer that needs to be destroyed or a human being? What kind of rights would you have then?

I'd tell them I would like the right to life, and if they don't respond to that I'd shoot them in the face. Next time a cancer or a fetus or a cell culture asks for the right to life, or so much as shows a fear of death or pain, let me know. But like I said, a fetus has all the rights it could ever ask for, and more besides.

 

[chris4243]

Maybe they should have thought about the possible results of their choice, before they chose to have sex then we wouldn't have abortions nor this thread.

I think that is the problem with those of the pro-choice side is that they never ever think of a the baby.

So what you're saying is, best to punish the sinful women by forcing them to go through pregnancy and have an unwanted child? And so as not to forget to think of the resulting child, punish the child by forcing them to grow up as an unwanted/unaffordable child? How very thoughtful of you.

 

[lux et lex]

Those fetuses need to grow up to be dead soldiers.