How can a Christian be Pro-Choice?

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tyronem

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How many did God kill in the flood, in punishing people for lying, for talking back, for not doing this or that, how many died in the bible total by the actions of God or what God told people to do?

God has absolute and total right to take whomsoever life he chooses.

It is his right to pass judgement, It is his right to take the lives of all those people in the flood because he created them.

God has absolute and total sovereignty over creation. All should know that if He had sent no savior for the human race and sent every single one of us to Hell He would still be Just, still be loving and still be worthy of all praise and honor.

All the Glory to God.
 
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tyronem

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You can yell that God is "Pro-life" all you want. There is no mention of abortion in the bible other than it being a civil matter paid for by a fine. Abortions were happening all over the world in Jesus' time, not ONCE did he comment.

How surprising, still useless rhetoric and Still not one scripture from you to back up your pro-murder stance. As a minister you should know better.

As a minister you should hold your opinions inside air tight scripture, where did Jesus say "Kill the unborn it matters not". Where did Jesus say "Oh its ok, go ahead, kill the unborn its just a fetus"?. That's no-where in the Bible either so how about you do some decent research as your position demands and back yourself up with scripture.

Again Like I said earlier which you glibly ignored that "Civil matter" you refer to is the accidental death of the child from the assault upon a mother. Not the intentional murder of a child. There is also nothing in this passage of scripture that even suggests that man who assaulted the woman gets away with it in God's eyes, it is merely a method of reparation to the person that is wronged.

Scripture is ABSOLUTELY clear a child is a CHILD whether it is in the womb or it is out of the womb, there is absolutely NO distinction.
I have already demonstrated this in previous posts using infallible scripture.

The Scriptures also say THOU SHALT NOT MURDER and therefore this applies to all humans including those in the womb that THOU SHALT NOT MURDER which is exactly why Jesus never had to say anything about abortion because every single Jew knew abortion was murder regardless of what ROMAN law said.

The Scriptures also say that if you condemn the innocent YOU ARE AN ABOMINATION BEFORE THE LORD. Pro-Murder condemns the innocent to death. Or in some cases where the child miraculously survives that poor innocent child is left disfigured and in many cases dismembered thanks to the disgusting beliefs that it is ok to murder the innocent child.

The only possible way you have of scrounging your way around this air tight scripture is to deny other air tight scripture such as the Doctrine of the salvation of the innocent, propitiation, blessed justification to name a few. Then you might as well go join the atheist crowd that deny the deity of Christ.

Only a God hating man would ever be pro the murder of an innocent child. You had better think long and hard about that, when you stand before Christ on judgment day and he says "So I hear you were pro murdering children".
 
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kiwimac

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You do not get to judge me, sunshine. There is NO, read it carefully, NO scriptural prohibition concerning abortion. You who would lay a law on other's hearts are no better than the pharisees of old.

Moreover the Jews did not believe that abortion was murder, if you believe that they did you have not bothered to read teachings of the Rabbis or the Talmud. Furthermore this is an ad hominem attack on me
Only a God hating man would ever be pro the murder of an innocent child. You had better think long and hard about that, when you stand before Christ on judgment day and he says "So I hear you were pro murdering children".

Repeat it and I will report you. Debate strongly but with respect for others.
 
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tyronem

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You do not get to judge me, sunshine. There is NO, read it carefully, NO scriptural prohibition concerning abortion. You who would lay a law on other's hearts are no better than the pharisees of old.

Just like there is NO scriptural Law that says we can't enslave black people so we should just go ahead and do it.
 
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tyronem

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You do not get to judge me, sunshine. There is NO, read it carefully, NO scriptural prohibition concerning abortion. You who would lay a law on other's hearts are no better than the pharisees of old.

Repeat it and I will report you. Debate strongly but with respect for others.

The only thing I will lose sleep on tonight is that you might die and wake up in Hell for condemning the innocent.
 
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tyronem

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Moreover the Jews did not believe that abortion was murder, if you believe that they did you have not bothered to read teachings of the Rabbis or the Talmud.

The Jewish Talmud was written 200-500 years after Christ, it showed an increase towards libertarianism and only allowed abortion in the case of a woman who's life was put at risk by the child.

The Talmud is irrelevant to pre-Christ and post-Christian teachings. It is hardly the inspired inerrant word of God and reflected the post Christ movement of the Jewish community away from inerrant scripture. Satan had begun his grasp upon Jewish theology in a post Christ age.

The Pentateuch however clearly and absolutely referred to the unborn child as a child and also gave the commandment Thou shalt not murder. In God's eyes as demonstrated absolutely in the Pentateuch, the unborn child was no different than the born so is not to be excluded from the Law.
 
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tyronem

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Show me where in the Pentateuch it refers to foetuses as children.

In the very passage you use to try to justify your position for one Exodus 21:22 She is with child

Oh and just so you are clear that passage not only just refers to the assault upon a woman, it only refers to it in the sense that two men are fighting and one injures the woman If men strive.

And just to be clearer than clear when the Bible says her fruit depart from her (yatsa) it means she gave birth prematurely, (Job 1:21) it then goes on to say that if a life is taken then a life shall be taken in response. So if the man who assaulted the woman and caused the birth causes the death of the woman or the child he will be put to death.

Any how, according to your liberal letterism approach to Biblical authority and scriptural relevance the enslaving black people is just fine and we should keep doing it because the Bible does not directly forbid it.
 
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kiwimac

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You are basing your stance on an English translation of the Hebrew. I want you to note this language of the following Jewish translation of the same passage.

. . . Alongside the above text is another one in Exodus that reads: "If men strive, and wound a pregnant woman so that her fruit be expelled, but no harm befall [her], then shall he be fined as her husband shall assess...But if harm befall [her], then shalt thou give life for life" (21:22).

The Talmud makes this verse's teaching explicit: Only monetary compensation is exacted of him who causes a woman to miscarry. Note also that though the abortion spoken of here is accidental, it contrasts with the homicide (of the mother) which is also accidental. Even unintentional homicide cannot be expiated by a monetary fine . . .

Source

If you wish to quibble with that :

The passage from the Vulgate:

si rixati fuerint viri et percusserit quis mulierem praegnantem et abortivum quidem fecerit sed ipsa vixerit subiacebit damno quantum expetierit maritus mulieris et arbitri iudicarint
Ex 21:22 (Vulgate)

"If men fight and strike a pregnant woman . . ."

God's Word translation (which is quite close to the Hebrew)

"22 “This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman's husband to demand.
Ex 21:22 (GW) "

Further, you say
And just to be clearer than clear when the Bible says her fruit depart from her (yatsa) it means she gave birth prematurely, (Job 1:21) it then goes on to say that if a life is taken then a life shall be taken in response. So if the man who assaulted the woman and caused the birth causes the death of the woman or the child he will be put to death.

You are right insofar as you refer to harm caused to the woman, the Hebrew does not refer to harm caused to the child, why? Because feticide is not a crime under Jewish law.

Note quoted verse following " . . . but no harm befall [her], then shall he be fined as her husband shall assess...But if harm befall [her], then shalt thou give life for life" . . ."

Allow me to give the whole quote sourced above: The quoted author is Rabbi Feldman who is both a medical ethicist & a highly respect Rabbi.

To begin to make his case, Feldman points out that there is no Commandment reading "Thou shalt not kill": rather, the Commandment reads "Thou shalt not murder."

In Judaism (and elsewhere, of course) killing in self-defense is allowed. There are a number of categories of allowable killing in self-defense - including the category "of rodef, the aggressor, who may be killed if that is the only way to stop his pursuit or aggression of a third party."

The Talmud considers treating the fetus as a rodef - specifically, "an aggressor against its mother, and making that the reason why abortion to save the mother's life is permitted." But the Talmud proceeds to reject that reasoning on the obvious grounds that the fetus is not yet of responsible age to deliberately forfeit its protection against being murdered [i.e., by consciously choosing to act as an aggressor, and thereby loosing its protection against killing].

The only valid grounds for permitting even therapeutic abortion is that murder is not involved because the fetus is not yet a human person [ftn. 1: Sanhedrin 72b: David Feldman Birth Control in Jewish Law (New York: New York University Press, 1968), chaps. 14 and 15.]

Killing is admittedly involved, but not murder. Killing is the taking of life of, say, an animal or a chicken, or of a human who forfeits his protection by an act of aggression. (81)

This brings us to the central point: the crucial distinction between killing and murder further depends on the definition of the status of the life taken - a definition which Feldman observes is metaphysical and religious, rather than scientific:

And the difference between fetal life and human life is not determined by the biologist or the physician but by the metaphysician. It's the determination of the culture or the religion that declares not when life begins but when life begins to be human. (81)

In keeping with the frequent focus in the abortion debate on the status of the embryo or fetus, Feldman notes that

the abortion question in talmudic law revolves around the legal status of the embryo. For this the Talmud has a phrase, ubbar yerekh immo, which phrase is a counterpart of the Latin pars viscerum matris. That is, the fetus is deemed "a part of its mother," rather than an independent entity.

This designation says nothing about the morality of abortion; rather, it defines ownership, for example, in the case of an embryo found in a purchased animal. As intrinsic to its mother's body, it belongs to the buyer. In the religious conversion of a pregnant woman, her unborn child is automatically included and requires no further ceremony. Nor does it have power of acquisition; gifts made on its behalf are not binding.

These and similar points mean only that the fetus has no "juridical personality," but say nothing about the right of abortion. This turns rather on whether feticide is or is not homicide. (81-82)

Even given the designation of the embryo / fetus as intrinsic to the mother's body and thereby lacking, we might say, personhood - is feticide, the killing of at least a potential human being the same as homicide? The biblical books of Exodus and Leviticus (part of the Torah - teaching, path, law - in Judaism, and canonical "Old Testament" books for Christians), as understood through the Talmud and Rashi (one of the most important Rabbinic authorities), argue that the answer to this question is, "No."

The law of homicide in the Torah, in one of its formulations, reads: "Makkeh ish..." "He who smites a man..." (Ex. 21:12). Does this include any many, say a day-old child? Yes, says the Talmud, citing another text: "...ki yakkeh kol nefesh adam" "If one smite any nefesh adam" (Lev. 24:17) - literally, any human person. (Whereas we may not be sure that the newborn babe has completed its term and is a bar kayyama, fully viable, until thirty days after birth, he is fully human from the moment of birth. If he dies before his thirtieth day, no funeral or shivah rites are applicable either. But active destruction of a born child of even doubtful viability is here definitely forbidden.)

The "any" (kol) is understood to include the day-old child, but the "nefesh adam" is taken to exclude the fetus in the womb. The fetus in the womb, says Rashi, classic commentator on the Bible and Talmud, is lav nefish hu, not a person, until he comes into the world. Feticide, then, does not constitute homicide, and the basis for denying it capital-crime status in Jewish law - even for those rabbis who may have wanted to rule otherwise - is scriptural.

Alongside the above text is another one in Exodus that reads: "If men strive, and wound a pregnant woman so that her fruit be expelled, but no harm befall [her], then shall he be fined as her husband shall assess...But if harm befall [her], then shalt thou give life for life" (21:22). The Talmud makes this verse's teaching explicit: Only monetary compensation is exacted of him who causes a woman to miscarry.

Note also that though the abortion spoken of here is accidental, it contrasts with the homicide (of the mother) which is also accidental. Even unintentional homicide cannot be expiated by a monetary fine. (82)

Source: as link above.
 
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tyronem

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You are basing your stance on an English translation of the Hebrew. I want you to note this language of the following Jewish translation of the same passage.

Source

The Talmud is irrelevant to Jewish law pre Christ as through denying the deity of Christ the Jewish people have allowed Satan into their theology.

If you wish to quibble with that :

The passage from the Vulgate:

si rixati fuerint viri et percusserit quis mulierem praegnantem et abortivum quidem fecerit sed ipsa vixerit subiacebit damno quantum expetierit maritus mulieris et arbitri iudicarint
Ex 21:22 (Vulgate)

"If men fight and strike a pregnant woman . . ."

That's Latin, not the original Hebrew and they have taken a linguistically unwarranted and indefensible liberty with the text. The Hebrew word Yatsa has a broad meaning in general to "Go out", "bring forth" et-al. It is used for many things including soldiers going out to war, people giving birth and much else.

Hebrew also had far more appropriate words to convey miscarriage. As in Job "Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn child, like infants who never saw light?" or Psalms "like a stillborn child of a woman" using the Hebrew word "Nephel"

This child was just brought through early, not dead. Children are viable from week 24 on by themselves. Striking a heavily pregnant woman causing her to go into labor early does not constitute miscarriage it constitutes an early birth. On a similar note to actually cause so much damage to a woman that she miscarries her child, that is not the result of men having a fight and accidentally striking the woman, to cause a woman to miscarry through violence requires considerable repeated force with the intent to do so, it is no accident that woman were created with a very good defense mechanism to keep the child safe from harm in the womb.

Also if it was not a premature birth and was just a miscarriage they wouldn't know for sure for some time at which point other factors could be blamed.

As in your GWT translation it is just premature birth, not miscarriage.

God's Word translation (which is quite close to the Hebrew)

"22 “This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman's husband to demand.
Ex 21:22 (GW) "


I prefer KJV because it is most accurate.

22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


Fruit only refers to living children.

Psalm 127:3
Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward..


Genesis 1:28
“Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion
You cant be bringing forth fruit if it is dead

It is quite clear from the text that if any mischief follow, not just to the woman "If any" i.e the death of the child. In order to allow Scripture to stand on its own and speak for itself, one must conclude that to understand “injury” to refer exclusively to the mother is to narrow the meaning without textual justification.

Therefore causing an early birth is cause for reparation, killing the child is cause for death as per the Law.

This all also changes nothing that the fact of the matter is, that this is an accidental causing of the premature birth, not intentional miscarriage, nor intentional abortion.

Yeled only denotes a child, as a fully developed human being, and not the fruit of the womb before it has assumed a human form

You are right insofar as you refer to harm caused to the woman, the Hebrew does not refer to harm caused to the child, why? Because feticide is not a crime under Jewish law.

200 - 500 years after Christ it became not a crime under Judaism, This is hardly surprising as Satan puts is fingers around the throat of Judaism.


Note quoted verse following " . . . but no harm befall [her], then shall he be fined as her husband shall assess...But if harm befall [her], then shalt thou give life for life" . . ."

You are adding words that are not there. That is textually unjustified.

Allow me to give the whole quote sourced above: The quoted author is Rabbi Feldman who is both a medical ethicist & a highly respect Rabbi.

Source: as link above.

His whole article focused around that Jews now (Since the Talmud) view abortion as not murder. What the Jews now think about abortion has total irrelevance to what is written in scripture that clearly offers absolutely no difference between the unborn child and the born child.
 
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tyronem

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You refuse to listen, you will not learn. This discussion is over. you are on ignore.

Typical, you are absolutely utterly refuted morally, philosophically and biblically and your next action is ignore.

You still have provided absolutely no scripture to support abortion. The only scripture you provided applied to the accidental injury to a woman causing a premature birth.

Perhaps we should start up the black slave trade again, the Bible doesn't explicitly deny that either.

Proverbs 26:5: Answer a fool according to his folly lest he become wise in his own eyes.
 
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Incariol

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<staff edit>
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:argh:
 
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chris4243

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The only thing I will lose sleep on tonight is that you might die and wake up in Hell for condemning the innocent.

Yeah, people who condemn the innocent (those who have had abortions, for example) will have to give account to God for their action. I hear God doesn't think it funny when people falsely speak on His behalf.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Kiwimac,
You are basing your stance on an English translation of the Hebrew.
So are you.
And just to be clearer than clear when the Bible says her fruit depart from her (yatsa) it means she gave birth prematurely, (Job 1:21) it then goes on to say that if a life is taken then a life shall be taken in response. So if the man who assaulted the woman and caused the birth causes the death of the woman or the child he will be put to death.
Exactly!
You are right insofar as you refer to harm caused to the woman, the Hebrew does not refer to harm caused to the child, why?
Both the Hebrew and the translation do refer to the harm caused to the woman, then the departing of the fruit of the womb, then if no harm done a fine. As the text has already said the woman has been harmed it can only be referring to any harm to the child.
Because feticide is not a crime under Jewish law.
But Exodus 21 is OT law.
 
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underheaven

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You really do need to check your facts. According to Wikipedia about 1% of all abortions are performed in cases of rape or incest. Slightly less than 3% are performed to protect the life/health of the pregnant woman. Another 3% are performed because of the condition of the fetus (fetus already dead or would not survive long after birth).

So, while the number of abortions performed for reason of choice is very high, it is less that the 99.999999% figure that you would have us believe.
You are quoting for the States. In France it is 12 weeks ,then it would
be a crime.
Apparently the numbers have gone down considerably since it was introduced about
30 years ago. Personally I think that there is correlation
between how violent a society is, how idividualistic, which as far as I can
see, includes many who call themselves christian, and the number
of abortions .Think about it .:idea::pray:
 
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good brother

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Think about this-If a woman wants an abortion, what does that say? it probably says that that child would not grow up in a good environment, and may not be loved if they are not wanted-now isn't it better that that woman gets an abortion?


Shall we go into the the homes of drunks and abusers and kill the children because according to you, those children won't grow up in a good environment anyway? Who shall decide what is and isn't a good environment for a child? Shall Democrats decide that a Republican home is bad? Should a Christian group decide for athiests? Should an economic level be the deciding factor? Shall an intelligence level? Should a health requirement be met? Should we let weight be a factor? Kill all the obese kids since they wouldn't have led as good a life as their skinnier counterparts. The doctor that delivered our baby asked if we wanted to get a test done at 14 weeks to test for Down Syndrome so that we could "terminate the pregnancy" before the 20 week deadline.

That argument (that I have seen many times before your presenting of it) is sick and twisted.


In Christ, GB
 
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