How can a Christian be Pro-Choice?

[JediMobius]

God created man in his image and saw that it was good...
Jesus said to hold anger against your brother is murder at heart, so how can abortion be permissible?
Forget extenuating circumstances. Rape, incest, and mortal peril to the mother are the minority of cases as well as ethically permissible. However, this is no defense or support for blanket choice, particularly as a means for post-conception birth control.

Thank you all for being thoughtful and civil (among other things). So far, so good!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Fair. Think about this though. Is God pro-choice? Does he leave the choice up to us?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I would prefer to live in a society where a woman can go to a doctor and have a clean surgery than in desperation try a do-it-yourself or back alley abortion.

The best way to curb the number of abortions is proper education and better opportunities, especially for those in lower income groups. An outright ban on abortion won't prevent them from happening, however better sex education programs, better education in general, offering better opportunities and offering a better quality of life for those in society will go a long way to encourage safe sex and give a better help to people--specifically young people--to making better, more informed, and well discerned decisions.

Band aids only go so far and don't fix what is a much deeper and festering wound; what's needed is full medical treatment, and that means going to the root problems and working toward bettering our societies at a deeper, more core level.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jase]

God created man in his image and saw that it was good...
Jesus said to hold anger against your brother is murder at heart, so how can abortion be permissible?
Forget extenuating circumstances. Rape, incest, and mortal peril to the mother are the minority of cases as well as ethically permissible. However, this is no defense or support for blanket choice, particularly as a means for post-conception birth control.

Countries that have strong sex education and legal abortions have much lower teen pregnancy and abortion rates than the United States.

Something to think about. The Pro-life movement and anti-sex education/contraception actually promotes abortions, not reduces them.

 

[liars_paradox]

Fair. Think about this though. Is God pro-choice? Does he leave the choice up to us?

That's actually not a good question, because asking if God gives us a choice opens up this long theological debate which goes beyond the scope of the OP's argument.

 

[JediMobius]

Fair. Think about this though. Is God pro-choice? Does he leave the choice up to us?

Well, yes, but then he holds us accountable for those choices. Shouldn't we strive as Christians to defend the defenseless? Widows and orphans, as it were...

 

[JediMobius]

Countries that have strong sex education and legal abortions have much lower teen pregnancy and abortion rates than the United States.

Something to think about. The Pro-life movement and anti-sex education/contraception actually promotes abortions, not reduces them.

So the Pro-life movement at large is doing it wrong. Contraception and sex education in a free country is necessary. Completely legal abortion is not.

Seriously, is everything in this dense country a two-sided issue? Reps or Dems. Pro-Life or Pro-Choice. I'm not saying we should even try to legislate morality, or create a Christian nation through our government (pipe-dream). [link=http://www.christianforums.com/t7571550/#post57856933]CryptoLutheran[/link] has some thoughtful points in support of choice, but should we settle for what works better, or for what works best?

Even if some sort of pro-choice legislation invariably produces the fewest abortions, and thus should be supported, shouldn't Christians still strive to protect and defend life through encouragement and discourse?

 

[Incariol]

Even if some sort of pro-choice legislation invariably produces the fewest abortions, and thus should be supported, shouldn't Christians still strive to protect and defend life through encouragement and discourse?

I suppose, pity that Christians in the pro-life movement have zero interest in that.

 

[kiwimac]

You do realise that there is no biblical prohibition on abortion?

 

[JediMobius]

You do realise that there is no biblical prohibition on abortion?

Is there an explicit biblical prohibition on slavery, marijuana, cocaine, assisted suicide, torture, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, polygamy, cannibalism, money laundering, racketeering, (child) pornography, or pedophilia?

 

[JediMobius]

I suppose, pity that Christians in the pro-life movement have zero interest in that.

Do you think if I told them their line of thinking is a stone's throw from Westboro, they'd listen to reason?

 

[chris4243]

Well, yes, but then he holds us accountable for those choices. Shouldn't we strive as Christians to defend the defenseless? Widows and orphans, as it were...

And hence why Christians defend a woman from being forced to carry a large physical, economic, and social burden when she is not ready for it, and protect children from being brought up as an unwanted child. As a side effect this also reduces crime rate among other effects (it might shock you to learn that unwanted children have a higher propensity toward crime).

Anyhow, what you're getting hung up with is that you think a small lump of cells is a human and can't see how anyone would see differently. Anyways, the answer to your question is that lots of people don't think a little ball of cells is a human.

If you are of the "life starts at conception" camp, feel free to explain to me how many people identical twins are and how many people the fertilized egg is.

 

[Incariol]

Do you think if I told them their line of thinking is a stone's throw from Westborough, they'd listen to reason?

Westborough, Massachusetts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hm, whatever.

Anyways, yes. But the pro-life movement has rather unfortunately become associated with the image of howling hicks blockading clinics with gory signs, so it might take a while for the public to fully engage with.

 

[JediMobius]

And hence why Christians defend a woman from being forced to carry a large physical, economic, and social burden when she is not ready for it, and protect children from being brought up as an unwanted child. As a side effect this also reduces crime rate among other effects (it might shock you to learn that unwanted children have a higher propensity toward crime).

And we favor abortion over some other solution such as adoption or caregiver assistance why? Obviously, you have concern for the well-being of at-risk youth, but is it better not to have lived than to live in sorrow? It seems to me that when we try to make this world perfect, or "protect" children from coming into the world because of its imperfection, we rob them of their place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 5:3 NIV - "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 NIV - Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Mat 5:5 NIV - Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 NIV - Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Mat 5:7 NIV - Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Mat 5:8 NIV - Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Mat 5:9 NIV - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 NIV - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 NIV - "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Anyhow, what you're getting hung up with is that you think a small lump of cells is a human and can't see how anyone would see differently. Anyways, the answer to your question is that lots of people don't think a little ball of cells is a human.

I can't say when that lump of cells becomes a human soul, but neither can anyone else. At conception, third trimester, at birth? On which side would it be better to err?

If you are of the "life starts at conception" camp, feel free to explain to me how many people identical twins are and how many people the fertilized egg is.

However many people God knows will come out of the egg. (Either that, or identical twins are one person with a hive mind )

 

[JediMobius]

Westborough, Massachusetts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hm, whatever.

Whoops. Wrong Spelling. I mean Westboro. (fixing)

Anyways, yes. But the pro-life movement has rather unfortunately become associated with the image of howling hicks blockading clinics with gory signs, so it might take a while for the public to fully engage with.

I'll be working on a different approach then.

 

[chris4243]

Is there an explicit biblical prohibition on slavery, marijuana, cocaine, assisted suicide, torture, racism, sexism, sexual harassment, polygamy, cannibalism, money laundering, racketeering, (child) pornography, or pedophilia?

Nope! Polygamy is biblically allowed (see: the patriarchs), and as for pedophilia 12-year-olds were given in marriage (sold actually). Slavery was allowed in both the old and new testaments, and sexism was not just allowed but required. As for racism, what do you think was implied by Israel being God's chosen people? Samson called on God to assist him in committing suicide, and Jesus' sacrifice was also assisted suicide (though more painful than most assisted suicides). Though marijuana and cocaine aren't mentioned by name, Jesus did miraculously create recreational mind-altering drugs and nowhere are medicines condemned. As for torture, I don't remember if there were any explicit commands to torture, but I do know that nothing us humans could do to torture anyone would compare to an eternity of hellfire. Racketeering at least at the country level was allowed, with the cities in question having to pay tribute, though God's commands for such cities usually were more along the lines of genocide.

On the other hand, cannibalism was forbidden via the dietary laws. Pornography was forbidden in the 10 commandments as were other images. Sexual harassment would probably have risked death in those days, whether or not it was actually forbidden. Moneylaundering would have been forbidden by Jesus' remark concerning the paying of taxes.

Anyhow, as you might imagine I don't really think very highly of old testament morality nor even of much of what was done in the new testament. I think the best way to go about this is to derive any rules from the one rule that fulfills the whole law: to love your neighbor as yourself. Now a woman is certainly my neighbor, but I've seen nothing to suggest a ball of cells should be treated as a person.

 

[chris4243]

And we favor abortion over some other solution such as adoption or caregiver assistance why?

No one said I do, but since you bring it up why not?

Obviously, you have concern for the well-being of at-risk youth, but is it better not to have lived than to live in sorrow?

Perhaps:
Ecclesiastes 4:2-4



2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
3 But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.

It seems to me that when we try to make this world perfect, or "protect" children from coming into the world because of its imperfection, we rob them of their place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 5:3 NIV - "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 NIV - Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Mat 5:5 NIV - Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 NIV - Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Mat 5:7 NIV - Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Mat 5:8 NIV - Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Mat 5:9 NIV - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 NIV - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 NIV - "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Indeed!

I can't say when that lump of cells becomes a human soul, but neither can anyone else. At conception, third trimester, at birth? On which side would it be better to err?

Jesus explained to the Pharisees that it is better to err on the side of pro-choice than to wrongly condemn others. If you wish to side with the Pharisees, you do so at your own peril and are definitely not playing it safe. Follow your own conscience and let others follow theirs, and then you're playing it safe.

However many people God knows will come out of the egg.

Indeed. If God knew the egg was destined to be aborted, or to miscarry naturally, then it would be zero people.

(Either that, or identical twins are one person with a hive mind )

And for extra fun, there's also the case of chimeras where two or more eggs fuse into one single individual.

 

[JediMobius]

Nope! Polygamy is biblically allowed (see: the patriarchs), and as for pedophilia 12-year-olds were given in marriage (sold actually). Slavery was allowed in both the old and new testaments, and sexism was not just allowed but required. As for racism, what do you think was implied by Israel being God's chosen people? Samson called on God to assist him in committing suicide, and Jesus' sacrifice was also assisted suicide (though more painful than most assisted suicides). Though marijuana and cocaine aren't mentioned by name, Jesus did miraculously create recreational mind-altering drugs and nowhere are medicines condemned. As for torture, I don't remember if there were any explicit commands to torture, but I do know that nothing us humans could do to torture anyone would compare to an eternity of hellfire. Racketeering at least at the country level was allowed, with the cities in question having to pay tribute, though God's commands for such cities usually were more along the lines of genocide.

This cracks me up, but please at least tell me you got my point.

On the other hand, cannibalism was forbidden via the dietary laws. Pornography was forbidden in the 10 commandments as were other images. Sexual harassment would probably have risked death in those days, whether or not it was actually forbidden. Moneylaundering would have been forbidden by Jesus' remark concerning the paying of taxes.

Of course, none of these are explicit, though well-supported by interpretation. (Also, for no better reason than argument, what about pornography that is not the image of an actual individual, i.e. written, drawn, computer-rendered...?)

Anyhow, as you might imagine I don't really think very highly of old testament morality nor even of much of what was done in the new testament. I think the best way to go about this is to derive any rules from the one rule that fulfills the whole law: to love your neighbor as yourself. Now a woman is certainly my neighbor, but I've seen nothing to suggest a ball of cells should be treated as a person.

That would be the second law, actually, which should be naturally fulfilled in following the first: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. As for that lump of cells, I'm assuming you've found my other reply by now...

 

[JediMobius]

No one said I do, but since you bring it up why not?

I meant we as a society working toward an ideal... and for the reasons which followed...

Perhaps:
Ecclesiastes 4:2-4

2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
3 But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.

You do realize Ecclesiastes is the most emo book in the bible, right? I mean, the main theme is absolute futility. If Ecclesiastes was the only book of the bible, we'd all look like the end of this video: YouTube - ‪Radiohead - Just‬‏

Anyway, my bible renders verse 3 - "But better than either of them is the one who has not yet existed..." Still, regarding the translation you quoted, my first thought reading the phrase "the one who has never been born" is the one who does not exist at all, so that one is hardly a one at all. In any case, it's hyperbole.

Jesus explained to the Pharisees that it is better to err on the side of pro-choice than to wrongly condemn others. If you wish to side with the Pharisees, you do so at your own peril and are definitely not playing it safe. Follow your own conscience and let others follow theirs, and then you're playing it safe.

Whoa, what? Context please. Let's not tie a millstone around my neck just yet.

Indeed. If God knew the egg was destined to be aborted, or to miscarry naturally, then it would be zero people.

Are you sure? Then why would an egg destined to be born a sociopath, to die in the crib, or die as a child be more than zero people?

And for extra fun, there's also the case of chimeras where two or more eggs fuse into one single individual.

Isn't a chimera a mythical beast? I don't know, if I had the job of designating souls and I knew that two eggs would become one human being, I'd give one a soul and the other not... assuming of course that eggs get souls. Shrug.

 

[lux et lex]

Nice photoshops DArceri...