Hell

[GrayAngel]

As you say, According to the Bible, Sodom and Gemorrah serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. As you know, Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed by the fire. So what you call "mortal death" is actually death. WE have eternal life because we are resurrected from death and we receive eternal life. Those who are destroyed do not receive eternal life. My position is biblical. Your position is not biblical. You quote Jude who says the lost are twice dead, but you deny that they are even dead at all.

How can you die twice if the first death is final? Your position doesn't even make any logical sense. Not to mention, you keep ignoring what the scripture is obviously saying. The afterlife is eternity for everyone, saved or not. That is what it says. When the rich man in Jesus' story died, did He stop existing, or did he suffer from a fire that he could not find relief from?

 

[Timothew]

How can you die twice if the first death is final? Your position doesn't even make any logical sense. Not to mention, you keep ignoring what the scripture is obviously saying. The afterlife is eternity for everyone, saved or not. That is what it says. When the rich man in Jesus' story died, did He stop existing, or did he suffer from a fire that he could not find relief from?

The way a person can die twice is if there is a resurrection to life in between the two deaths. This is what the bible says happens. Jesus said "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." According to the Bible, "He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." He who does not overcome will be hurt by the second death. It'll be the death of him. But those who have received eternal life from Jesus Christ will not suffer the second death.

I am not ignoring what the scripture is obviously saying. I came to my position by NOT ignoring what the scriptures are saying. Check out 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction." I believe this says "eternal destruction." Only by ignoring this scripture could someone come to the conclusion that the penalty is non-destruction and eternal torment instead. Jesus said "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish. Perish does not mean "never perish but be in eternal torture instead."

The parable in Luke is a parable, not a description of the actual conditions in hell.

 

[GrayAngel]

The way a person can die twice is if there is a resurrection to life in between the two deaths. This is what the bible says happens. Jesus said "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." According to the Bible, "He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." He who does not overcome will be hurt by the second death. It'll be the death of him. But those who have received eternal life from Jesus Christ will not suffer the second death.

I am not ignoring what the scripture is obviously saying. I came to my position by NOT ignoring what the scriptures are saying. Check out 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction." I believe this says "eternal destruction." Only by ignoring this scripture could someone come to the conclusion that the penalty is non-destruction and eternal torment instead. Jesus said "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish. Perish does not mean "never perish but be in eternal torture instead."

What you're describing is not eternal destruction, it's permanent destruction. Eternal destruction is destruction that never ends, a process of being destroyed that is without end. Permanent destruction is to be destroyed, and that's the end of it. What scripture teaches is the former.

God doesn't raise the dead just to send them back to their lack of existence. As the Revelation passage I quoted says, He raises them to judge them on what they've done. He does this to distribute fair punishment for the unsaved. Permanent destruction for all does not equal fair punishment.

BTW, a person after permanent destruction wouldn't be "suffering" anything, as they wouldn't know the difference.

The parable in Luke is a parable, not a description of the actual conditions in hell.

A parable only works if the parable itself is true. It takes something from reality and compares it with another thing that is true. I could tell a story about gravity turning upside down, but it wouldn't be a parable.

There is a reason why Jesus described the afterlife in terms of torture unending, a torture of which the rich man wanted to warn his brothers about but couldn't. He didn't say all that stuff just so He could sit back and say, "Now wasn't that a comforting story? Of course, it's all just a work of fiction. You can forget all that stuff I just said."

 

[Timothew]

What you're describing is not eternal destruction, it's permanent destruction. Eternal destruction is destruction that never ends, a process of being destroyed that is without end. Permanent destruction is to be destroyed, and that's the end of it. What scripture teaches is the former.

God doesn't raise the dead just to send them back to their lack of existence. As the Revelation passage I quoted says, He raises them to judge them on what they've done. He does this to distribute fair punishment for the unsaved. Permanent destruction for all does not equal fair punishment.

BTW, a person after permanent destruction wouldn't be "suffering" anything, as they wouldn't know the difference.



A parable only works if the parable itself is true. It takes something from reality and compares it with another thing that is true. I could tell a story about gravity turning upside down, but it wouldn't be a parable.

There is a reason why Jesus described the afterlife in terms of torture unending, a torture of which the rich man wanted to warn his brothers about but couldn't. He didn't say all that stuff just so He could sit back and say, "Now wasn't that a comforting story? Of course, it's all just a work of fiction. You can forget all that stuff I just said."

OK, I can see that you are committed to believing a certain way no matter what I say, so why don't we just agree to disagree.

 

[Timothew]

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

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This says destruction, not eternal torment.

 

[GrayAngel]

OK, I can see that you are committed to believing a certain way no matter what I say, so why don't we just agree to disagree.

An excellent display of the pot calling the kettle black. I've proven my point Biblically and logically. All you've done is take scripture out of context and ignore every point I make so you can keep repeating yourself.

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

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This says destruction, not eternal torment.

You're interpreting it the way you want it to. The Bible describes eternal torment in several places, as I have shown. This verse you've cherry-picked does not contradict the rest of scripture. Destruction does not mean what you want it to mean. It refers to a process, a process that the Bible says will never end. A literalist would explain it as fire that continually burns and eats away at your flesh, without ever totally destroying you. I personally don't believe that Hell is literally made up of fire, but the destruction as the Bible describes does not happen once and is over with. It never ends.

Revelation 14:11 - “And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Hell is described as "unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12) and "eternal fire." Every description referring to the afterlife of the unsaved tells us it doesn't end.

Mark 9:41-48 - “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’”

Someone with a more reasonable mind than yourself would at least be able to admit that there is defense for my argument, even if they aren't convinced. But it's clear from your posts that you are too brainwashed to even consider what I have to say. And if you cannot see how scripture says that the unsaved will also have an afterlife, then you are really blind.

 

[Timothew]

The pot and the kettle are both black.
Black is a great color for pots and kettles don't you think? My favorite frying pan is black and my dutch oven is black too.

It's true that I picked that verse (Matt 7:13) because Jesus says in that verse what I am trying to tell you. So why don't you agree that the choices Jesus presents are Life and Destruction?

Here's verse 2. See if you agree or disagree.
Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

 

[Timothew]

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
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The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
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Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Do you agree or disagree with Jesus that the wicked will be destroyed at the end of the age, not eternally tortured in hell?

 

[Timothew]

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

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Do you agree with this statement of Jesus, or do you also disagree with it? Do people perish if they don't repent or are they kept alive forever in hell being tortured in fire?

 

[Timothew]

Do you still think that these are isolated verses that I've "cherry-picked" because they agree with what I am saying? Or are you beginning to see the pattern?
How about Paul? "The wages of sin is death". Paul doesn't say "the wages of sin is to be eternally tortured alive when you are dead."

 

[Timothew]

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’”

See Isaiah 66,
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;

And now, the context:
Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;

So as you can see, the reference to worms and fire doesn't mean that conscious people are tortured forever. The fire burns up DEAD PEOPLE, and the worms eat DEAD PEOPLE! The verse YOU quoted proves that the penalty is destruction, NOT eternal torment.

 

[Timothew]

Ezekiel 18:3
The soul who sins will die.

Notice that Ezekiel doesn't say "The soul who sins will be tortured alive forever in hell when they are dead."

Still "Cherry-Picking"? Or is the Bible's message complete and in agreement with what I've been saying?

 

[Timothew]

Go to the beginning, the message is the same.
Genesis 3:17-19
Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.

18“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field; 19By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”


The curse is death, not eternal torture in hell.

 

[Timothew]

The last book of the Old Testament has the same message:
Malachi 4:1
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”

The evildoer will be destroyed, not eternal tortured alive when they are dead.

 

[Timothew]

Sorry, a few isolated verses that seem to indicate eternal torture when taken out of context are not enough to overturn ALL of the rest of the scriptures.

 

[Timothew]

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

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So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.