Hell

[Nails74]

I think it is fair to say that you and I have different definitions of hell. It also appears as if you and I have different viewpoints as to how literally the Bible is meant to be taken.

As I indicated in another post, the Bible isn't meant to be an accurate account of the non-physical world. It's meant to be an illustration (often done through the personification or humanization of non-human things) of various things which don't directly pertain to the physical world such as love, feelings, hatred, sadness, sorrow, joy, jealousy, etc.

There is no problem with us having differing viewpoints on this. One of us may be right and the other wrong. Or we might both be wrong. But unless any of this can be proven or observed first hand, then no one can know for sure.

If I cannot trust the Bible to be my source of truth (let alone an accurate historical account), then I must echo Paul...

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say, “ There is no resurrection of the dead ”? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is without foundation, and so is your faith. In addition, we are found to be false witnesses about God, because we have testified about God that He raised up Christ —whom He did not raise up if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. [1 Corinthians 15:12-17]

...and our faith would be worthless.

 

[elman]

If I cannot trust the Bible to be my source of truth (let alone an accurate historical account), then I must echo Paul...

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say, “ There is no resurrection of the dead ”? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is without foundation, and so is your faith. In addition, we are found to be false witnesses about God, because we have testified about God that He raised up Christ —whom He did not raise up if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. [1 Corinthians 15:12-17]

...and our faith would be worthless.

Paul did not say our faith is worthless without the bible. He did say our faith is worthless without love. An inerrant bible is not required for Jesus to be the son of God and resurrected, it is not required for God to have created us with the ability to love and with the destiny of life. It is not required for one to be a follower of Jesus--there were followers of Jesus before the New Testament existed. There have been and still are followers of Jesus who never had bible and could not read it if they had it. God can exist even if you have incorrect theology.

 

[Nails74]

I think my response was not clear. My point is that if I cannot trust what is written in the Bible, then I have no hope.

And yes, the Creator of the universe does continue to exist whether or not my theology is orthodox.

 

[elman]

I think my response was not clear. My point is that if I cannot trust what is written in the Bible, then I have no hope.

And yes, the Creator of the universe does continue to exist whether or not my theology is orthodox.

It does not have to be that way. I don't trust some of what is written in the Bible and I have hope. Orthodox is a moving target. The same idea is heresy for some and orthodox for others.

 

[forGod1]

I've been a Christian my entire adult life and I can easily address some of your questions.
Hell does not actually exist. It is merely a word meant to scare the neophyte Christians into adhering to the rules of Christianity. Unbelievers do not go to hell. After they die, their bodies are either cremated or placed in a grave. If you are talking about the soul, that doesn't have any physical properties, so it really doesn't exist in such a capacity that it can go anywhere.

The good non-believers and the bad non-believers (or believers) are not all tossed into the same place where they will have to coexist. Who taught you this?

Where did you get this? Are you a Mormon or something?

 

[Nails74]

I don't trust some of what is written in the Bible

This is merely out of curiosity, but would you tell us which parts you do not believe?

 

[Whisper of Hope]

If I cannot trust the Bible to be my source of truth (let alone an accurate historical account), then I must echo Paul...

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say, “ There is no resurrection of the dead ”? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is without foundation, and so is your faith. In addition, we are found to be false witnesses about God, because we have testified about God that He raised up Christ —whom He did not raise up if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. [1 Corinthians 15:12-17]

...and our faith would be worthless.

Amen! God does not change (Numbers 23:19) nor does He lie (Malachi 3:6). His Word is eternal and stands forever (Psalm 119:89; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25). I choose to believe and take God at His word. I believe He divinely inspired His Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17), which will not return to Him in void but will accomplish what He sent it out for (Isaiah 55:11). As the apostle Paul wrote in his letter to the believers in Rome, "Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: 'That You may be justified in your words, and may overcome when you are judged'” (Romans 3:4; Psalm 51:4, emphasis added). How incredibly insulting and upsetting it must be to God to have some of His own children not believe Him and take Him at His word. It also must be very hurtful to Him that some of His own children do not trust Him enough to believe Him and take Him at His word. He does not lie, change, or contradict Himself.

I think my response was not clear. My point is that if I cannot trust what is written in the Bible, then I have no hope.

Amen! I wholeheartedly agree with you, brother. If a professing Christian does not believe and fully trust in what God has had written in the Scriptures (which within themselves make the claim that ALL scripture is God-breathed) than how can they believe and fully trust in God for their own salvation? How can a professing Christian believe and fully trust in the Scriptures which tell them how to be saved, if they do not believe and fully trust what He had written in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 about how ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work? And I repeat, God does not change (Numbers 23:19) nor does He lie (Malachi 3:6). His Word is eternal and stands forever (Psalm 119:89; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25). I choose to believe and take God at His word. I believe He divinely inspired His Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17), which will not return to Him in void but will accomplish what He sent it out for (Isaiah 55:11).

I cannot help but wonder if these same professing Christians think God lied or He was somehow mistaken when He said that ALL Scripture is given by His inspiration, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. If I don't believe what someone has told me, it is because I don't trust them enough to take them at their word. Such a person has not earned my trust or my devotion. However, this is not the case when it concerns my Heavenly Father. I have said all of this before and I still stand firmly by it. I trust God and I choose to take Him at His word.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

I think it is fair to say that you and I have different definitions of hell. It also appears as if you and I have different viewpoints as to how literally the Bible is meant to be taken.

As I indicated in another post, the Bible isn't meant to be an accurate account of the non-physical world. It's meant to be an illustration (often done through the personification or humanization of non-human things) of various things which don't directly pertain to the physical world such as love, feelings, hatred, sadness, sorrow, joy, jealousy, etc.

I have to humbly disagree with you, sister. If you will, please read my post here, because I addressed a similar issue concerning Scripture and it also explains my position and belief on this matter, as well.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

 

[food4thought]

Hi Alexandra. Hell is indeed a very difficult and controversial subject even within mainstream christianity. Many people who are very sincere believers do not believe in an eternal hell, they believe in a doctrine called annihilationism. They believe that a person who rejects Christ will be cast into hell where, instead of experiencing an conscious eternity seperated from God, that their souls will be destroyed completely and they will cease to exist. I personally do not believe this theory accurately represents what the Bible teaches, but understand their beliefs well enough to realize that they are still strong Christians despite that fact.


I think as a person just beginning their seeking of God, you would do well to not dwell on hell overly much. As I stated above, it IS a very controversial subject. Keep seeking after God and reading through your Bible. As you grow in your understanding of God and the Bible, and you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you will find the Holy Spirit guiding you into an understanding of all truth.

 

[Timothew]

Hey everyone!

I wanted to have your opinion on hell.
I understand that only those who believe in Christ can go to heaven.
But what about those who don't? Are all unbelivers bound to go to hell?

No. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture in hell. Unbelievers, Those who reject Christ do not receive eternal life from him. They do not receive eternal life in hell from him either. Since they don't receive eternal life, the alternative is death. Death is the opposite of life.

 

[drich0150]

No. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture in hell. Unbelievers, Those who reject Christ do not receive eternal life from him. They do not receive eternal life in hell from him either. Since they don't receive eternal life, the alternative is death. Death is the opposite of life.

 

[Timothew]

The bible is true, your headslap is no refute.

Do you believe that the wages of sin is NOT death? Try reading Romans 6:23.

Do you believe that unbelievers receive eternal life? The bible says that they do not.

Do you believe that death and life are the same thing?

 

[elman]

This is merely out of curiosity, but would you tell us which parts you do not believe?

I believe God is love and is good all the time everytime. I don't believe God is evil or does evil. Evil is being unloving toward someone. Anytime God is accursed of being unloving that is not true. God did not regret created man and did not therefore distroy the world by flood. God did not tell Abraham to kill his son. God will not tell you to kill your son. If someone is telling you to kill your son, that is not God.

 

[GrayAngel]

The Bible says that we were all once dead in our transgressions. Christians are the only ones who ever live. The others will continue to be dead for the rest of eternity.

Ephesians 2:1-5 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

The afterlife exists both for believers and unbelievers. The unsaved will not simply disappear. People ask why bad things happen to good people and why good things happen to bad people. God is just, so He will not let mortal life be the end to their story.

Luke 16:-19-28 - “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’


“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’”

 

[Timothew]

The Bible says that we were all once dead in our transgressions. Christians are the only ones who ever live. The others will continue to be dead for the rest of eternity.

The afterlife exists both for believers and unbelievers

The 2 things you said contradict each other.

 

[GrayAngel]

The 2 things you said contradict each other.

Actually, no. There is no contradiction. I chose those words very deliberately. According to the Bible, the life of an unbeliever is not life at all. Jesus came to give life and life more abundant (ie, more rich). Unbelievers in Hell will continue to live in Hell without ever really having lived life. This is what the Bible calls the Second Death. The people in Hell will exist forever, but they will continue as they were, dead in their transgressions.

 

[Timothew]

Actually, no. There is no contradiction. I chose those words very deliberately. According to the Bible, the life of an unbeliever is not life at all. Jesus came to give life and life more abundant (ie, more rich). Unbelievers in Hell will continue to live in Hell without ever really having lived life. This is what the Bible calls the Second Death. The people in Hell will exist forever, but they will continue as they were, dead in their transgressions.

So they are dead, and not alive enduring torture forever? Okay.
I think being dead is not really existing in any way. They don't "live" in hell, because they are not alive. You have to be alive to live.

 

[Timothew]

According to Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. Death means not being alive. When a person is dead they can't experience eternal torture in hell. There is no eternal torture in hell for the lost, they just die. They don't receive the gift of eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[GrayAngel]

According to Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. Death means not being alive. When a person is dead they can't experience eternal torture in hell. There is no eternal torture in hell for the lost, they just die. They don't receive the gift of eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We all die because of our sins. That's mortal death. After we die, we go to Sheol, the Grave, where we have either restful sleep (Paradise / Abraham's bosom) or restless sleep (Hell). Jesus' sacrifice saves us from Sheol and takes us into life with God.

Jude 1:7,12-13 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

...These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Your position is not Biblical. The Bible tells us in several places that the unsaved will continue to exist after death. And Jesus addressed this issue Himself in His day. It even tells us that God will gather up all of the living and the dead for judgement. If the dead are lost forever, then this wouldn't be possible.

Revelation 20:11-15 - Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

And why are the dead brought before God to be judged? It tells us. Because God will distribute punishments and rewards based on what they had done. If all the unsaved were simply dead anyway, this would be completely redundant.

 

[Timothew]

We all die because of our sins. That's mortal death. After we die, we go to Sheol, the Grave, where we have either restful sleep (Paradise / Abraham's bosom) or restless sleep (Hell). Jesus' sacrifice saves us from Sheol and takes us into life with God.

Jude 1:7,12-13 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

...These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Your position is not Biblical. The Bible tells us in several places that the unsaved will continue to exist after death. And Jesus addressed this issue Himself in His day. It even tells us that God will gather up all of the living and the dead for judgement. If the dead are lost forever, then this wouldn't be possible.

Revelation 20:11-15 - Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

And why are the dead brought before God to be judged? It tells us. Because God will distribute punishments and rewards based on what they had done. If all the unsaved were simply dead anyway, this would be completely redundant.

As you say, According to the Bible, Sodom and Gemorrah serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. As you know, Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed by the fire. So what you call "mortal death" is actually death. WE have eternal life because we are resurrected from death and we receive eternal life. Those who are destroyed do not receive eternal life. My position is biblical. Your position is not biblical. You quote Jude who says the lost are twice dead, but you deny that they are even dead at all.